How would you fix the power creep in the series?

[Doctor.]

As we know, ever since battle powers were introduced (or even before that point), power boosts kept getting more and more ridiculous, to the point where every power boost after a training sequence or having healed seems ridiculous or unbelievable, no matter the character. Goku goes from a battle power of 416 to over one million in a year. This not only forces Toriyama into a corner, always having to one-up Freeza (and then, the villain after him), but it also makes characters who were left behind useless without a gigantic power boost that fans would, no doubt, complain about. This becomes especially ridiculous once the Gods are introduced, where Toriyama tries to "reset" everything by giving an absurd boost to Goku and Vegeta.

So, how would you fix the power progression in the series?

[Kamiccolo9]

1. Remove numerical power levels in general. Replace with "much stronger," "far superior," etc.
2. Remove Vegeta's "I'll blow up this planet" line.
3. Insert the pre-Cell android stuff directly after the Saiyan Arc, follow that with the Buu Arc (removing all Super Saiyan transformations, naturally), then proceed with the Freeza stuff, and end the series with the Cell Arc, starting with them enjoying a time of peace when Imperfect Cell arrives. Make minor adjustments as needed. Remove Buu blowing up the planet.

This way, it allows for a gradual escalation of power, without ever having to deal with weaker people demonstrating superior feats than guys much stronger than them. It ends with Cell and Gohan's Kamehameha duel being the greatest display of power in the series, and with that being a natural evolution from Freeza blowing up Namek in the previous arc. Buu ends up being placed closerl to Daimao, allowing for a more gradual tonal shift from demons and monsters to more sci-fi based plots.

[Doctor.]

1. Remove numerical power levels in general. Replace with "much stronger," "far superior," etc.
2. Remove Vegeta's "I'll blow up this planet" line.
3. Insert the pre-Cell android stuff directly after the Saiyan Arc, follow that with the Buu Arc (removing all Super Saiyan transformations, naturally), then proceed with the Freeza stuff, and end the series with the Cell Arc, starting with them enjoying a time of peace when Imperfect Cell arrives. Make minor adjustments as needed. Remove Buu blowing up the planet.

This way, it allows for a gradual escalation of power, without ever having to deal with weaker people demonstrating superior feats than guys much stronger than them. It ends with Cell and Gohan's Kamehameha duel being the greatest display of power in the series, and with that being a natural evolution from Freeza blowing up Namek in the previous arc. Buu ends up being placed closerl to Daimao, allowing for a more gradual tonal shift from demons and monsters to more sci-fi based plots.

Hm, how about both occasions where the moon was blown up? Remove them entirely or find another solution to the Oozaru problem?

[Kamiccolo9]

1. Remove numerical power levels in general. Replace with "much stronger," "far superior," etc.
2. Remove Vegeta's "I'll blow up this planet" line.
3. Insert the pre-Cell android stuff directly after the Saiyan Arc, follow that with the Buu Arc (removing all Super Saiyan transformations, naturally), then proceed with the Freeza stuff, and end the series with the Cell Arc, starting with them enjoying a time of peace when Imperfect Cell arrives. Make minor adjustments as needed. Remove Buu blowing up the planet.

This way, it allows for a gradual escalation of power, without ever having to deal with weaker people demonstrating superior feats than guys much stronger than them. It ends with Cell and Gohan's Kamehameha duel being the greatest display of power in the series, and with that being a natural evolution from Freeza blowing up Namek in the previous arc. Buu ends up being placed closerl to Daimao, allowing for a more gradual tonal shift from demons and monsters to more sci-fi based plots.

Hm, how about both occasions where the moon was blown up? Remove them entirely or find another solution to the Oozaru problem?

Putting that under "make minor adjustments as needed."

Have Roshi hear Yamcha telling Puar to cut Goku's tail off or something. Piccolo blowing up the moon would happen late enough to where I'd be fine with it.

[LightBing]

Greatly reduce the multiplier transformations give. Oozaru x2, Kaioken x4, SSJ x10 and stop there. No more transformations, at least permanent ones. The moment Mr.Toriyama decided to go from Ginyu (120.000) to Freeza (120.000.000) things truly got out of hand. Before that the humans were always in striking distance.

Look at the Namek Arc, we go from Kiwi (18.000), Dodoria (2X.000), Zarbon (2X.000), Ginyu Force (4X.000), Ginyu himself (120.000) and end up with Freeza at 120.000.000. That's just shooting oneself in the foot, forcing contrived power ups to keep with it.

[fadeddreams5]

Honestly, I've never had any problems with the power increases or see them as "ridiculous" at all. Resurrection F (both the movie and arc) is what has ruined absolutely everything, as far as powers go. I mean... everything.

The power boosts in the Namek saga weren't unbelievable at all; the numerical values given to them were. If we didn't know Goku's PL was 120k+ when he arrived on Namek and Frieza's 2nd form was 1 million, it wouldn't come as much of a surprise that Goku could face Frieza 1v1. He trained in 100x gravity and was in a near death experience. Without these numbers, we'd assume he never had a chance to show his true power before Ginyu swapped bodies. Simple.

Everything else is just fine. The Cell saga had the characters pretty much capped out and trying to figure out a way to reach a level beyond SSJ--a form still treated as legendary. This was the mystery and goal. Only Gohan reached that true pinnacle/ascension thanks to a combination of the SSJ state and his hidden powers, but the others made their own unique progress. Also, Piccolo fused with Kami, a form that, in Kai at least, was implied to be on par with a SSJ. Perfect... well, besides the fact that the Androids were created by some random Earthling, but eh.

In the Buu saga, fusion was a way to break the limit needed to overcome the new adversary and SSJ3 was basically a forced transformation using every little drop of ki a saiyan, who had already ascended beyond SSJ, could produce. Ultimate Gohan was the full extent and beyond of Gohan's hidden power (for realsies, this time). I'm not a fan of any (love SSJ3 Goku's design though), but this was Toriyama's way of inventing something to make power increases believable at this point, and it worked. I felt with the introduction of universal gods that create and see all, a foe that wiped the lot of them, and a transformation that broke the power scale (i.e. could be sensed throughout the universe), there weren't really many places Toriyama could go beyond this, unless he continued the fusion trend. But he surprised me.

I like BoG's god ki concept--a realm of power that can't be reached through conventional training. I like the fact that Goku needed external help to attain his SSJG form. I hate the form itself and feel the ritual used was among the lowest points of this franchise, but there were many ways to go from here. It opened a new chapter... until Resurrection F, where now prodigies can just train for 4 months to reach these god levels, shitting on the SSJ legend (even further), Piccolo's union with Kami, Gohan's ascension in the Cell Games, fusion, and everything that came before it. Fuck. That. Movie.

[Doctor.]

Honestly, I've never had any problems with the power increases or see them as "ridiculous" at all. Resurrection F (both the movie and arc) is what has ruined absolutely everything, as far as powers go. I mean... everything.

I don't know how you can think that. Goku goes from ~200 to 400 in 3 years, then the humans go from ~200 to +1000 in 1 year, making Goku's gains seem minuscule. Goku becomes 33x stronger through a zenkai boost. Goku goes from 8k to 3 million in six days. Like Herms once said too, Freeza, in his first form, is about 4x stronger than Ginyu, for absolutely no reason at all. Then you have the multipliers for the Kaioken power-up, which forces Freeza's final form to be ridiculously above any of his other forms. Most of the humans are left behind, and even Piccolo at one point, due to the ever-increasing power of the Saiyans and their transformations, making it impossible for them to get back in the game without a ridiculous power boost of their own. Then in BoG, there's some kind of power "reset", but it's more of a case of powering-up Goku (and then Vegeta) so much, that he's now in a different scale than the others, which, again, is power creep. The power scaling in the series is completely messed up, and it started way before the modern material.

The moment battle powers are introduced, it becomes less of a battle of skill and intelligence, and more of a battle of numbers. Who has the bigger number wins, that's it.

[fadeddreams5]

Honestly, I've never had any problems with the power increases or see them as "ridiculous" at all. Resurrection F (both the movie and arc) is what has ruined absolutely everything, as far as powers go. I mean... everything.

I don't know how you can think that. Goku goes from ~200 to 400 in 3 years, then the humans go from ~200 to +1000 in 1 year, making Goku's gains seem minuscule. Goku becomes 33x stronger through a zenkai boost. Goku goes from 8k to 3 million in six days. Like Herms once said too, Freeza, in his first form, is about 4x stronger than Ginyu, for absolutely no reason at all. Then you have the multipliers for the Kaioken power-up, which forces Freeza's final form to be ridiculously above any of his other forms. Most of the humans are left behind, and even Piccolo at one point, due to the ever-increasing power of the Saiyans and their transformations, making it impossible for them to get back in the game without a ridiculous power boost of their own. Then in BoG, there's some kind of power "reset", but it's more of a case of powering-up Goku (and then Vegeta) so much, that he's now in a different scale than the others, which, again, is power creep. The power scaling in the series is completely messed up, and it started way before the modern material.

The moment battle powers are introduced, it becomes less of a battle of skill and intelligence, and more of a battle of numbers. Who has the bigger number wins, that's it.

This is the problem though: the numbers and multipliers. Let's make believe these numbers do not exist. Isn't that better? That's how I would fix this issue. Scouters would be used for communication and detecting lifeforms on the planet only. =D

[LightBing]

The moment battle powers are introduced, it becomes less of a battle of skill and intelligence, and more of a battle of numbers. Who has the bigger number wins, that's it.

That's immediately proven wrong, when Goku and Piccolo kill Raditz. It's further emphasized by Vegeta who tells Nappa to put aside the scouter, because it isn't trustworthy against the Earthlings.
Battle powers didn't change the status quo in Dragon Ball and the way fights developed.

[voltlunok]

Greatly reduce the multiplier transformations give. Oozaru x2, Kaioken x4, SSJ x10 and stop there. No more transformations, at least permanent ones. The moment Mr.Toriyama decided to go from Ginyu (120.000) to Freeza (120.000.000) things truly got out of hand. Before that the humans were always in striking distance.

Look at the Namek Arc, we go from Kiwi (18.000), Dodoria (2X.000), Zarbon (2X.000), Ginyu Force (4X.000), Ginyu himself (120.000) and end up with Freeza at 120.000.000. That's just shooting oneself in the foot, forcing contrived power ups to keep with it.

I agree with a lot of this, another suggestion though, do away with zenkais. They contributed quite a bit to the massive power creep in the Freeza Saga too in my opinion.. I also agree a lot with what Kamiccolo9 suggested, specially ending with the Gohan vs Cell Kamehameha duel. Along with never mentioning power levels, leaving it mildly ambiguous and not attaching a number to it allows people to interrupter the strength a little more rather then relaying so much on a number.

[Cipher]

I think it's a little dishonest to ignore faddeddream's distinction: If you ignore the numbers from the Saiyan-Freeza arc making the gains look so large, everything feels reasonably justified in terms of breaking through the limits the characters were at before, and finding new avenues/transformations/training/whatever else to do so. Freeza's sudden gain in the new material does feel like a different philosophy from previous arcs, but it's not so unbelievable for this universe, given who Freeza is, that it really hinders my enjoyment.

[Lord Beerus]

Greatly reduce the multiplier transformations give. Oozaru x2, Kaioken x4, SSJ x10 and stop there. No more transformations, at least permanent ones. The moment Mr.Toriyama decided to go from Ginyu (120.000) to Freeza (120.000.000) things truly got out of hand. Before that the humans were always in striking distance.

Look at the Namek Arc, we go from Kiwi (18.000), Dodoria (2X.000), Zarbon (2X.000), Ginyu Force (4X.000), Ginyu himself (120.000) and end up with Freeza at 120.000.000. That's just shooting oneself in the foot, forcing contrived power ups to keep with it.

I agree with a lot of this, another suggestion though, do away with zenkais. They contributed quite a bit to the massive power creep in the Freeza Saga too in my opinion.. I also agree a lot with what Kamiccolo9 suggested, specially ending with the Gohan vs Cell Kamehameha duel. Along with never mentioning power levels, leaving it mildly ambiguous and not attaching a number to it allows people to interrupter the strength a little more rather then relaying so much on a number.

I absolutely agree that the introduction of zenkai of created a ridiculous amount of power creep in the Freeza arc. But in my opinions one of the criminal offenders of power creep is fusion techniques. I fucking hate that gimmick. It was responsible for contributing to the horrible "This isn't even my final form" scenario on Namek, and the concept was outright abused in the Majin Boo arc where we got two different forms of fusion techniques. And it sure as hell didn't help that they were inexplicably compared with one another in regards to strength.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Presuming the "weaker people can't touch stronger people past whatever threshold" must remain in tact, scale errything way the hell down. Freeza, Cell, and Buu all had something in the range of five "power tiers" in a single arc: we don't need that. The Saiyan arc's three (The three Saiyans, who would have thought?) is much more reasonable.

[FoolsGil]

1) Reduce Final Form Freeza's Power level 100% from 120 million to one million.

2) Reduce Zenkai boosts from plot based boosts to concrete levels

3) Use 100% Freeza as a measurement of power past Freeza Saga, scale accordingly

[IDreamtIWasABee]

SSJ1 on Namek isn't surpassed until SSJ2 at the Cell Games, which isn't surpassed until Fusion. Simple and compelling.

[the1payday]

I like to imagine that the power levels aren't necessary valued exactly like they appear. I mean, the battle powers started with the Saiyans and Freeza, who are aliens, so perhaps they operate on a different numerical value. I'm not sure if I'm getting the point across exactly, but for example: maybe whatever linear value "power levels" have is on a different scale than just the "numbers" at face value. So...(in my imagination at least) maybe a power level of 10,000 is really only twice as strong as a battle power of like 2,000. Again, this is just my little imagination on it, but it makes the numbers a lot easier to swallow.

[Draconic]

Raditz doesn't outclass both Goku and Piccolo at the same time, with seemingly no chance of winning. He is just powerful enough to hold up to both of them. Otherwise, if he is shown to still overpower both, don't have Nappa and Vegeta so far above him. They can still be stronger, but just enough that the humans could catch up.
Don't have Nappa crapping on everybody. Ten's Kikoho should do something, Chaozu's suicide should do something. Have the humans fight him at first, get outclassed, but not appear like weaklings. Then have Piccolo and Gohan arrive a little later, turning the tables and causing Vegeta to interfere. He and Nappa should be enough to deal with them and because of Gohan's lack of experience, he gets Piccolo, the only one able to hold up to them, killed. Then Tenshinhan gets killed, but Goku makes it in time to save the day. Maybe even have Nappa killed in battle by Ten's Kikoho. Vegeta should be enough to deal with Krillin and Gohan.
Remove Zenkai boosts. Vegeta is on par with the Ginyu Force from the start. But, to not make him OP, remove the ki sensing ability. He dipatches Zarbon, Dodoria, Guldo and Recoome, but he is no match for Ginyu. Then Goku comes along, mastering greater levels of Kaioken and manages to defeat the rest and save everybody. Then Freeza comes along and he isn't 4x above Ginyu. He is on par with him in his first form. Then Piccolo fusing with Nail should be enough to be on par with the second form. Then Freeza turns to his final form just for fun. Goku then puts up a fight with him in Kaioken, but needs to finally turn Super Saiyan to finish the job.
Don't have Freeza one-shotted by Trunks. Make it a bit of a fight, showing that the Androids are so strong due to limitless ki. Then when Cell appears, he would have absorbed two Freeza level beings, on top of his own not-quite-Freeza level power. That's 3 times the amount of power the previous main villain had, more than enough.
Super Saiyan 2 wouldn't be a thing. Have Gohan unlocking his full power at the Cell Games, and by the time the Buu stuff comes around, he lost that power due to lack of training. Super Saiyan 3 would just be Goku's way of achieving the same level of power Gohan got when he was a kid. This would make Fat Buu on par with Cell and Super Buu above that. Then, when Dai Kaioshin gives the power-up to Gohan, it would bring his power beyond his limits, putting him above his Cell Games self.
Don't have the kids so goddamn powerful, so that when fusion time comes, they would only have to be on par with Goku and above him only after achieving SSJ3 in the ROSAT, putting him on par with Super Buu.
Don't have Vegetto so overpowered. Goku and Vegeta are powerless against Super Buu, so Buuhan should be on par with him. Give the fusion a little more advantage, if only because you have the two greatest fighters putting their experience together, not their power.
Kid Buu then powers down to between Fat and Super, making him a little above Cell. Goku in SSJ3 has problems only becausehe can't maintain the form while alive. Vegeta is a non factor, since he would only be SSJ, cause SSJ2 doesn't exist.
Then Beerus comes along and is more powerful than Vegetto, but that is not such a huge deal like before, since Vegetto is no longer OP. The god ritual is a shortcut to that kind of power, but not unachievable trough training with someone like whis.
Then Freeza comes along and only has to close a gap of like 10x, I guess. Small enough for someone like him.

Observations:
The SSJ forms don't have multipliers in this case. That is stupid anyway.
Power levels are not the end of the world. Vegeta's 18000 can win against let's say, Recoome's 43000 (or something like that), because he is that good of a fighter.
Also, since Roshi could blow up the moon in the very first saga, even with this kind of powerscaling, blowing up planets, the solar system, and by the time Beerus appears, the universe can still be believable.

[Saiga]

I'd just not have the battle powers hit hundreds of millions so early (or possibly, at all).

Zenkai would be removed because though I like the concept, I think it's a pain to deal with, and the story doesn't need it.

Super Saiyan can just be a 10x multiplier like Oozaru, and Kaio-ken only go up to 5x. Keeping these multipliers smaller means the villains don't need to escalate so much. Super Saiyan 2 was already a small multipler (2x SS1), and I think Super Saiyan 3 being 1.5x SS2 would work to keep things from getting out of hand. It'd also be pretty fitting - each Super Saiyan stage is literally +1 Super Saiyan.

I'd also cut Freeza's 2nd and 3rd forms because I don't feel they add much to the story.

Now, how the story would unfold with these changes.

For the Saiyan arc, I like Goku's battle power just being 5,000. Then with the Kaio-ken, he comes up to 10,000 with x2 and 15,000 with x3. His Kaio-ken Kamehameha is 20,000.

Nappa can still be 4,000. I'd probably have Raditz at 3,000 so the difference between him and Nappa isn't as extreme, and this would leave more room for the pre-Raditz power-ups to fit. Goku and Piccolo would be in the 1,000 - 2,000 range at the start of Z. Vegeta would be about 12,000 to fit in with Goku's Kaio-ken.

Without Zenkai, Vegeta just needs to have been at his initial Namek arc level all along - ie he was always stronger than Cui, Dodoria and Zarbon's first form. At first he's just underestimated because he's suppressing his battle power and people think he's gotten weaker, Dodoria and Zarbon aren't surprised that he's stronger but that he can change his battle power. He loses to Monster Zarbon and instead of getting a zenkai, he's just ready for him in round 2 and deals with him through trickery (what he did anyway). The Ginyu Force come down and they're the first enemy he can't outsmart, he just flat-out loses.

Because Goku can't get a Zenkai from the Ginyu Force, I'd have him get all of his power-up from his 100x gravity training and have him not arrive until he fights Freeza. So instead of Goku being the one to defeat the Ginyu Force, Piccolo is wished back before the Ginyu Force catch up with the group and Nail joins the fight. They all get beaten up, Piccolo arrives, fuses with Nail and essentially takes Goku's role in that fight.

Then for the Freeza battle, Vegeta is relying on their strength in numbers (and Piccolo's strength) to beat him, and Freeza fights them all in his base form before transforming to beat them. Then Goku arrives on the planet and fights Freeza just like he did, except without as much escalation - he only goes up to Kaio-ken x5 at max, and Freeza doesn't pull as much "I'm only using 34.96% of my power right now!" nonsense.

The battle powers probably wouldn't even need to hit the millions that way. At least for the Freeza arc.

As for the humans being left behind, fuck 'em. I don't think that needs to be changed, or you've got too many people to account for with every serious battle. Phasing them out in strength gives you a more manageable cast to work with.

[apex_pretador]

I don't feel like there is a large power creep in the story anyways.
Even the strongest unfused character (ultimate gohan) is like only 40x as strong as freeza 100%.

Even super vegetto, the super-strongest being of DBZ, is only like 10x as strong as gohan & about 400x as strong as 100% freeza.

[TheatreStyleKai]

All that I'm getting from this discussion is that it's perfectly reasonable for a 12 year old to be immune to gunfire, break boulders with his bare hands, and wipe out a modern military with nothing but a stick - but the moment you express it by a numerical value you've ruined the series forever.