Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[perucho1990]

Gohan caught Tagoma offguard, thats why he could push him off, idk why people believe Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, when it had more to do with Gohan attempting to power up to Mystic but wasnt working while battling Ginyu.

[xmysticgohanx]

I still don't see any problem with:

Base Gohan < Piccolo < Tagoma < Tagoma [powered-up] < SS Gohan < 1st form Freeza < Perfect Cell

If you really want base Gohan to be stronger than Piccolo, then you can just assume that Super works on anime logic, where Super Saiyan is less than a x2 boost, and Super Saiyan 3 is maybe x1.25 stronger than Super Saiyan 2.

The problem is that Tagoma is stated to be on par with base Gohan.

Is he? Then go with option 2.

or we can go with base Gohan > Piccolo because DBS is canon

[Neon Z]

Gohan caught Tagoma offguard, thats why he could push him off, idk why people believe Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, when it had more to do with Gohan attempting to power up to Mystic but wasnt working while battling Ginyu.

The dialogue said that Tagoma was as strong as Gohan at his best condition and he was also standing up after Ginyu's hits, while everyone else fell in one hit. Everything suggests that Base Gohan is significantly stronger than Piccolo here.

[perucho1990]

Gohan caught Tagoma offguard, thats why he could push him off, idk why people believe Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, when it had more to do with Gohan attempting to power up to Mystic but wasnt working while battling Ginyu.

The dialogue said that Tagoma was as strong as Gohan at his best condition and he was also standing up after Ginyu's hits, while everyone else fell in one hit. Everything suggests that Base Gohan is significantly stronger than Piccolo here.

KK, then that comment about Vegeta claiming he could beat everyone in Base during the Tenkachi Budokai wasnt a complete bluff. It makes sense Gohan is still stronger than Piccolo.

At most current SSJ Gohan is around Buu Saga SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku. IMO.

[Bullza]

No it just means that base Gohan is a lot stronger than base Goku or Vegeta by the start of Super.

That makes perfect sense to me because Elder Kai unlocked Gohan's potential so that in his base form he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He hasn't trained so his power has dropped to the point where he's now only somewhat stronger than Piccolo.

[RandomGuy96]

If I'm not using the official multiplier then I'll rather used the theory I said a few posts back.

I don't know why you're trying to apply manga logic to the anime. It never works.

[Vice]

or we can go with base Gohan > Piccolo because DBS is canon

It sure is. Hope you remember this when Gohan is retired permanently in place of Piccolo in the very next arc

[xmysticgohanx]

or we can go with base Gohan > Piccolo because DBS is canon

It sure is. Hope you remember this when Gohan is retired permanently in place of Piccolo in the very next arc

I will, all it would mean is Piccolo (post training) > base Gohan > Piccolo > #18 > Freeza.

[Pannaliciour]

No it just means that base Gohan is a lot stronger than base Goku or Vegeta by the start of Super.

That makes perfect sense to me because Elder Kai unlocked Gohan's potential so that in his base form he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He hasn't trained so his power has dropped to the point where he's now only somewhat stronger than Piccolo.

That just doesn't make any sense at all.
When buu absorded Piccolo and gotenks, why didn't gohan turn into a ssj to beat him? He was in his base right?

Gohan doesn't have mystic power anymore thats why he turns in a SSJ in Super. It is bad writing but the truth.

[Vice]

Gohan lost his Mystic transformation but he did do all that Z Sword training and that probably boosted his base up quite a bit.

[xmysticgohanx]

Do you really think he got > a 2x boost?

[Blackstripe]

Do you really think he got > a 2x boost?

Why not? It was training in the other world, after all, which he'd never done before.

But I honestly just think Gohan is at an "in between" state, where he's lost the ability to draw out his Ultimate power in base, but still carries some of the enhancement...enough to put him above Piccolo.

[Bullza]

No it just means that base Gohan is a lot stronger than base Goku or Vegeta by the start of Super.

That makes perfect sense to me because Elder Kai unlocked Gohan's potential so that in his base form he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He hasn't trained so his power has dropped to the point where he's now only somewhat stronger than Piccolo.

That just doesn't make any sense at all.
When buu absorded Piccolo and gotenks, why didn't gohan turn into a ssj to beat him? He was in his base right?

Gohan doesn't have mystic power anymore thats why he turns in a SSJ in Super. It is bad writing but the truth.

They're not Mystic powers, it's not its own transformation. Elder Kai simply brought out Gohan's powers to their 100% limit, at that point turning Super Saiyan wouldn't have made him any stronger which is why it wasn't used.

But because now he hasnt really trained for about 6 years his power has decreased significantly from that 100% and so turning Super Saiyan will make him stronger.

[Pannaliciour]

No it just means that base Gohan is a lot stronger than base Goku or Vegeta by the start of Super.

That makes perfect sense to me because Elder Kai unlocked Gohan's potential so that in his base form he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He hasn't trained so his power has dropped to the point where he's now only somewhat stronger than Piccolo.

That just doesn't make any sense at all.
When buu absorded Piccolo and gotenks, why didn't gohan turn into a ssj to beat him? He was in his base right?

Gohan doesn't have mystic power anymore thats why he turns in a SSJ in Super. It is bad writing but the truth.

They're not Mystic powers, it's not its own transformation. Elder Kai simply brought out Gohan's powers to their 100% limit, at that point turning Super Saiyan wouldn't have made him any stronger which is why it wasn't used.

But because now he hasnt really trained for about 6 years his power has decreased significantly from that 100% and so turning Super Saiyan will make him stronger.

Nice try, but that totally does not explain why you think base gohan is stronger than base vegeta or base goku at the start of Super.

Please people don't make a (fan) story based on assumptions. WHY would gohan be stronger in his base than base Goku and vegeta in beginning of Super?? Because he was mystic in the Buu? Manga never said all of this. So back at the beginning (rule) > stronger overall is stronger base.

[Bullza]

What are you talking about? Elder Kai unlocked all of Gohan's powers so that in the Buu saga base/mystic Gohan was far stronger than base Goku or Vegeta.

He hasn't trained so Gohan has grown weaker in base form to the point that he's now only somewhat stronger than Piccolo but still obviously stronger than base Goku or Vegeta at the start of Super being that they're weaker than Frieza.

That's not a fan theory, it's what the show presented to us.

[The Monkey King]

You know, I'm actually starting to like Dragon Ball Super for jumbling up the fighter rankings. The staff clearly don't give a flying fuck about power level consistency, and I love them for that. All they're doing is highlighting that Dragon Ball's exponential power inflation is a complete farce.

Then you're one of the things wrong with the DB fanbase, how could you support shitty inconsistent writing that shits on what was established in its own canon?

In shounen battle manga like DB how characters rank in strength and how they got to get so powerful is very important. All this does is undermine that fact with fodders surpassing the heroes who have trained for years simply by being beaten up for 4 months.

[xmysticgohanx]

Do you really think he got > a 2x boost?

Why not? It was training in the other world, after all, which he'd never done before.

But I honestly just think Gohan is at an "in between" state, where he's lost the ability to draw out his Ultimate power in base, but still carries some of the enhancement...enough to put him above Piccolo.

DBS SSJ2 Vegeta > DBS Ultimate Gohan
Gohan is weak
Weaker Gohan > Piccolo

[Bullza]

In shounen battle manga like DB how characters rank in strength and how they got to get so powerful is very important. All this does is undermine that fact with fodders surpassing the heroes who have trained for years simply by being beaten up for 4 months.

You're not supposed to let something like power levels ruin the show for yourself. Characters have always grown to be as strong as the plot requires them.

Goku with a power level of 90,000 went in the healing chamber and came out with a power level of 3 million yet when Vegeta was beaten even worse and he was put in the healing chamber all that did was boost his power level from 24,000 to 30,000.

Dr Gero tampered with a couple teenagers and made them stronger than the strongest beings in the Universe.

It's not supposed to be logical.

[LightBing]

I get it that it's lame they don't show us the training Freeza and Tagoma did. But take a step back and think about it. It isn't illogical in the context of the series.

Freeza never trained in his life, he's the strongest naturally born creature in the Universe, who's not a God. He only reached God level by unlocking a transformation, before that he's what? Gohan Boo? It's not that far-fetched if one accepts the prodigy part.

Tagoma, he started at about 2X.000. That's much more than Gohan, Goku and Piccolo started at. His training mirrors Piccolo preparing for the Android Arc, going from a million to close to Freeza level. Just by sparring against the much stronger Goku. Don't forget Piccolo was divided, when whole he jumped to #17 level...
Add the regeneration equipment, which means training to the limit every single day. With all this, I find it reasonable that he got to SSJ level.

They may have trained in a special planet or using a special method. Freeza and his father had great knowledge, even knowing about Boo and Beerus.

[irreality]

It's not supposed to be logical.

Right: Nobody, neither Toei or Toriyama has ever been doing any secret math to make sure power levels "worked out" -- they didn't do it early on, they didn't do it in Namek, and they don't do it now. Over 20, 30 years people have been watching the series, they have post facto developed formulas to "explain" the power levels. Any random set of numbers can be "made" to fit a formula, doesn't mean that formula was intended.

Of course, when you get new numbers, suddenly they don't fit the fanmade formula, but they weren't supposed to. I understand making charts and analysing such things is fun for some people, but it shouldn't me taken as fact that underlies the writing or as something the diminishes the plot or introduces plotholes, since they were never intended to be a crucial part of the series. Yes, strength is more coherent in DB than Dr. Slump (where Arale can destroy the earth in one punch if she chooses), but it is *still* not meant to be written as a strict org chart. Drama is more important than that.

And Super is not doing anything differently than Buu Saga, Cell Saga, or any other saga did. They are like: oh, this fight would be interesting! This guy would need to be this powerful for that. Ok, let's say he trained some and go! Which is no different than sticking Goku in a spaceship for 6 days with a bag of senzu and having him have a huge boost in a week. ETA: and don't give me a "but Zenkais!" explanation for that: Zenkais are a huge Deus Ex Machina: they were never mentioned before Namek, and were barely if ever mentioned after that.