Why is Toriyama taking a massive dump on Gohan?

[dbzfan7]

I'd love to eat my own words when it comes to Gohan, but it's unlikely with Super. Instead every character must essentially share the same motivation and have similar traits, or they just ain't worth fleshing out more. Hence my little stat trinity of importance joke which dictates you must love food, love fighting, and pretty much have no life outside that. For some reason you must love to fight and get stronger to fight. Everyone must have the same motivation and can't fight for other reasons.

To be fair, there are characters that incorporate that lifestyle and that are worse of than Gohan. I'm still hoping something interesting will happen with Piccolo that does not include dying for someone else

Worse case I can think of is Megaman X in Megaman X7. Though that was because he was so annoyingly preachy and kept complaining. Piccolo has some hope since he is going to be part of the next arc. He could potentially become a big player again, or be absolutely wasted as just a character slot and nothing more. Considering the things Super has brought up, I could see it going either way for him. Either 5 days with Whis allows him to maybe get some training to let him be significant again, or he's just there cause they need another member. Seems Whis holds the power to become relevant really quickly in his hands. The true god of Dragon Ball.

[fadeddreams5]

There may be a misconception in here somewhere, so let me make something clear: I have NO problem with Gohan being a scholar who doesn't train or enjoy fighting anymore. I have a problem with the execution of his portrayal.

What, the execution of Gohan being slapped around because he tries to fight when he doesn't train or enjoy fighting? Because that sounds normal. That's what happens to the other guys who can't keep up with the stronger villains. The other guys would KILL to have the silver spoon Gohan has, and Gohan chooses to not do anything with it. Cool.

But that means that when someone tough shows up, he needs to cower with the other guys because he'll just get in the way. That's just the way it is, and he chose that life.

Execution, as in any of that happening in the first place. Just because Gohan lives a tranquil lifestyle does not mean it's necessary to have him slapped around and cowering.

Comparing Gohan, the co-main during the later half of DBZ, the saiyan with the greatest potential since his introduction, and the strongest character at the end of two sagas, including the very end of DBZ, to Piccolo and the humans is an insult.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Comparing Gohan, the co-main during the later half of DBZ, the saiyan with the greatest potential since his introduction, and the strongest character at the end of two sagas, including the very end of DBZ, to Piccolo and the humans is an insult.

I ask again - why? Why is it an insult? I mean, it keeps being insisted that it's about his usage, not his power, but the complaints always seem to circle back to his 'wasted potential'.

And even Chaozu - CHAOZU - is stronger than any normal human being on the planet, by far. Being a little lower on the totem pole of insane powers is hardly something to be ashamed of, and Gohan is still pretty near the top of the thing. If he happens to be placed in a category with the other weaker characters, it's only because the new threats are just that much stronger and out of his league.

[fadeddreams5]

Comparing Gohan, the co-main during the later half of DBZ, the saiyan with the greatest potential since his introduction, and the strongest character at the end of two sagas, including the very end of DBZ, to Piccolo and the humans is an insult.

I ask again - why? Why is it an insult? I mean, it keeps being insisted that it's about his usage, not his power, but the complaints always seem to circle back to his 'wasted potential'.

There, I'm basing my argument entirely on his powers and potential. It's fine to have him fight and lose, but to have him be defeated worse than all the others, time and again, rather than standing out among the crew, as he should? To have SSJ2 Vegeta steal his unique ability and surpass him at the same time? To highlight Krillin's strength against Frieza's men, despite him not training, but have Gohan lose all his power for the same reason?

[precita]

The funniest part of it all is I expect Gohan to become more powerful than Goku and Vegeta again later on in Super, and have a new transformation. I think this whole "Gohan is weak" thing is a red herring, its an excuse to show Gohan build himself up again as a powerful fighter.

Mark me words, we'll be seeing something like SSJ2 Gohan or Mystic Gohan in Super all over again where he'll be the most powerful.

[Kagari]

I thought that way following what happened near the end of the Buu saga and what they did with Gohan in the Resurrection F film but after what we've seen in Super so far with the changes and the overall current focus on his struggles there is a potential to expand on that sort of character development and I think fans should look at that positively. Well, the potential is there of course but if it gets used is another matter altogether.

My biggest fear for Super is that everyone not Goku or Vegeta will ultimately get sidelined but hopefully I'm proven wrong.

[Vice]

There, I'm basing my argument entirely on his powers and potential. It's fine to have him fight and lose, but to have him be defeated worse than all the others, time and again, rather than standing out among the crew, as he should? To have SSJ2 Vegeta steal his unique ability and surpass him at the same time? To highlight Krillin's strength against Freeza's men, despite him not training, but have Gohan lose all his power for the same reason?

When did any of this ever happen? Gohan has looked like a million bucks compared to Piccolo in this arc.

[FoolsGil]

Execution, as in any of that happening in the first place. Just because Gohan lives a tranquil lifestyle does not mean it's necessary to have him slapped around and cowering.

Comparing Gohan, the co-main during the later half of DBZ, the saiyan with the greatest potential since his introduction, and the strongest character at the end of two sagas, including the very end of DBZ, to Piccolo and the humans is an insult.

You can't have it both ways. You just can't.

[NitroEX]

Yes, what Toriyama has done is perfectly fine, he's lessened use of a character he's interested in using while giving him a happy life. It is more than one could say for Yamcha in some interviews.

Exactly. People tend to try and side step that with 'lolz but it's Yamcha, he was never really a fighter anyway', but the fact of the matter is that if any character got a massive dump on them, it's Yamcha. The poor guy doesn't even get to have his off-screen happiness, no, it all had to be ripped away in service of giving us another Saiyan.

What happened to Yamcha was bullshit. I agree with that, but Yamcha and Gohan are far from being deserving of equal treatment. Yamcha was and always is going to be a side character. As soon as Toriyama expanded the story to aliens and Saiyans (who dwarf humans in power), Yamcha was as good as done. Gohan, on the other hand, had just as much claim to the role of protagonist as Goku, he was always treated as a special case both in terms of power and prominence in the pecking order. We literally witnessed Goku become a decoy protagonist in the Cell arc as Gohan was hoisted as the story's savior and hero, sure this was lessened by the conclusion of the Buu arc but just the fact that Gohan remained the strongest unfused character is very telling of his role in the story.

Having him go from that level of importance to fodder for Freeza's goons as well as being a guy who's continuously one shotted in big fight scenarios (and ridiculed by the main cast no less) is a ridiculous fall from grace and an undeserving one at that. If the writers want to go in a more Goku/Vegeta centric direction then that's fine, but don't treat a once important character like garbage and strip him of power without expecting any sort of fan backlash. As it stands they don't even have the courtesy to provide any justification for the loss of mystic, they've alluded to a lack of training being the reason but the power was (as you even mentioned) never unlocked through training in the first place. This "no training" excuse doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.

But no, let's wax philosophically about how Gohan is being mistreated, despite still being the third strongest character in the main cast (fifth if you want to count Beerus and Whis as main cast) even with falling behind on his training - not to mention most of his power he got through various methods that barely involved any training - and getting to have a happy family life. Poor him.

Well firstly, being relegated to SSJ probably means that he's below Gotenks in power but that's beside the point. Yes, it's true that he does have a happy family life, but shouldn't he then logically feel the need to protect said family and life? It makes zero sense for him to be aware of threats like Beerus, get constantly defeated by returning villains like Freeza and yet still feel no guilt or responsibility to improve and protect the ones he loves most. Saying that "well he can just rely on Goku/Vegeta to protect him" is a lame excuse and really, it makes Gohan look like a despicable individual. THAT in my opinion is more out of character than having him train once in a while, especially now that he has two important reasons to (Videl & Pan).

If we're going to get more post-Z material with Goku still as our lead, then you should probably not be terribly shocked for there to have been at least SOME manner of regression in Gohan's fighting ability, as Gohan has ALWAYS had a very consistent history of lapsing in his training in favor of school & study in between major fights and conflicts while only ever really stepping up and pushing himself in cases where he's absolutely NEEDED by his family and friends in the most urgent life or death scenarios. Hell, one of the rare times we ever see him engage in a more sportsman-like "for fun" martial arts tournament (25th Budokai) he had to be out and out BLACKMAILED into doing it.

Having Gohan seriously focus on and maintain/improve his martial arts skills on his own during significant downtime, acting as if he really gives a crap about that life the way his dad and his dad's friends all do, would by this point be much, much more out of character for him in general. The whole scholar thing, etc. If you seriously expect X number of years to pass without major incident after the whole Boo thing ending the way it did and for Gohan to have been spending all that time hurling himself into constant training and sharpening his "Mystic"-era peak skills, you clearly haven't been paying much attention to his actual personality and behavior throughout the whole damn series. He's only EVER been a "badass" when his hand has been absolutely and unavoidably forced into it (though granted of course those moments certainly were all more than substantially badass).

I agree that Gohan doesn't have anywhere near the same interest in fighting as Goku does but I think it's important to remember that Gohan had absolutely nothing to gain from fighting regular humans in the 25th Budokai. Entering of his own accord would mean that he'd essentially be exploiting his Saiyan abilities for money and fame which... obviously doesn't jive with his established good nature. At that point in the story Gohan's main goal was to try and get through high school without anyone recognizing him from the Cell games or finding out about his power, entering himself into a globally broadcasted event would have meant risking blowing his cover and that in itself would be a good enough reason to stay away (nevermind Chi-chi's influence). Point is, I don't think that example is a fair justification for him never wanting to fight especially considering all the other things he had to worry about.

I do think it's also worth considering that we actually do see him show interest in training as soon as Goku decides to enter the tournament. Not only that but, once he discovers the true potential of Goten and Trunks he expresses worry at the thought of being surpassed by them. He might not be a fighting junkie but at the very least he did, at one time, take some semblance of pride in his abilities and reputation as a fighter. To say he had zero interest in fighting always seemed like a dishonest excuse to me.

You are absolutely right about Super not needing to downgrade Gohan's powers to the extent that they did though, I think the same goes for the disappearance of Gotenks' SS3 as well. Goku and Vegeta's God powers have already elevated them to be stronger than Mystic Gohan and SS3 so I don't see any justification for weakening those characters further.

[fadeddreams5]

There, I'm basing my argument entirely on his powers and potential. It's fine to have him fight and lose, but to have him be defeated worse than all the others, time and again, rather than standing out among the crew, as he should? To have SSJ2 Vegeta steal his unique ability and surpass him at the same time? To highlight Krillin's strength against Freeza's men, despite him not training, but have Gohan lose all his power for the same reason?

When did any of this ever happen? Gohan has looked like a million bucks compared to Piccolo in this arc.

This all quite literally happened...

I agree that Piccolo has gotten worse treatment in this arc though. That said, overall, Gohan has had it worse. Piccolo even gets to participate in the upcoming tournament. Not to mention, he will never be removed from his role as the "observer" (you know, that one guy in every anime who observes fights and narrates what is going on).

You can't have it both ways. You just can't.

Sure you can. I can think of several ways Gohan could be used better while remaining a family man. Slapped around =/= losing and being rusty, btw. Like, Genos over there in One Punch Man loses every fight he's in, but he puts up decent battles and looks so cool doing so that you can't help but forgive him.

[GokuSuperSaiyan6]

Don't get me wrong guys, i freaking love Gohan. but the reason they utilize gohan like this is because of his character and what he truelly stands for. Gohan never was a fighter like Goku to begin with. He missed the fighter instinct/obsession that Goku had. That's the trait that mostly the full-blooded saiyans have. That's probably also the reason why Goten and Trunks aren't real fighters either. But Toriyama's real reason ofcourse is because he didnt have the right feeling when he put Gohan into the main spot. They are not taking a massive dump on Gohan, they are just being true to his character.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

At this point I don't care if Gohan ever throws a punch again. However, Make. Him. Interesting. or don't have him around anymore. For me it seems Gohan has lost his charm. It was there for BoG but is completely absent in F and a majority of Super. His main role as of now seems to be the bowling pin. Something the villains can knock down, set up, and knock down again in the next arc. It has gotten quite stale. Gohan has truly become the new Yamcha. With Yamcha being pushed away more and more, someone needs to fill the role of punching bag I suppose.

[Kid Buu]

He was always kind of like that really. Did Toriyama ever let him win a fight where he wasn't babied?

[Scarlet Spider]

Gohan was never the character during the original run that his fans like to play him up as. He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

Bingo. Gohan is kind of like the black sheep in the family, he never was passionate about fighting like his parents or other siblings. He never intended to follow in his father's footsteps, he wanted to make his own. I love the idea that perhaps the most powerful fighter in that universe really doesn't like the idea of fighting but when he needs to he will.

I don't know about Gohan being the black sheep exactly. Goten doesn't train either. He goes to school and spends his time playing with Trunks. Fighting is just a plaything for them, they have no interest in training. By EoZ he's just going on dates, he didn't even want to fight in the tournament or train, Goku made him. Gotenks is all Goten has.

I can agree with how Gohan is in terms of Super, but let's explore;

His potential is raw power. But before SSJ2, what did that accomplish? Absolutely nothing. Hard work > being born with power in DB.

Vegeta was born better but still seriously hurt his pride. Freeza never trained a single day in his life and was the most powerful being in the universe at the time, Goku rekt him. You can go back to Dragon Ball and see how putting in work is always the answer. It was even one of the main themes of the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.

Before the "Gohan is by far the strongest" that Toriyama pulled out of his ass in the Cell arc, his potential was never a major focus on the series. Sure, there was the WTF factor of what happened in the Raditz fight, but even after training he wasn't the strongest Z Warrior alive, Piccolo was. Even with rage boosts, he couldn't do anything to Nappa and at best stall an extremely weakened Vegeta for a few moments.

Go into the Namek arc. Gohan got his potential unlocked and even with rage boost, he managed to knock 2nd Form Freeza down, with no actual damage dealt. Besides that, he was a complete dead weight, that came along Krillin because, besides wanting to help his friends, he had to, since no one else could.

Android arc now. Gohan was a complete non-factor until the RoSaT training. He did absolutely nothing relevant in terms of power and there was no build up to how powerful he would become throughout the arc. If he really were meant to take the role of main character (not hero, because Goku isn't one either), there would be more build up towards it. That's just writting 101. The asspull Toriyama did was SO big, he had to completely change Gohan's character, something that's never happened at all in his other rage boosts. And EVEN THEN, when things got hard because he fucked up, he STILL wanted to give up without even trying. Goku had to effectively tell him to man the fuck up and finish the job.

Skip to the Saiyaman arc and Gohan is an infinitely better character. He has an actual identity, his habits reflect his personality. Then he gets rekt by Buu and goes to the Kaioshin planet to train. And here comes the biggest bullshit power up in the series. He gets all his power unlocked, he becomes by FAR stronger then SSJ3 Goku, which had been training for 7 years non stop, same with Vegeta, who became a laughing stock in terms of power compared to the top dogs of the arc, or Gotenks, completely shitting on one of the coolest gimmicks of the arc and making it damn near pointless if Vegetto weren't a thing, for sitting his as for 24h. And he doesn't have ANY drawbacks at all. No energy drain, no time limit, no nothing. He is just the strongest because he is Gohan. Why do you think he couldn't catch an earring? Because Toriyama realized how hard he fucked up Gohan's character, hence the return to his more early Buu arc persona in more recent material to the point where he even lost the Mystic power up in RoF and later on in Super, and how everything he did to him completely diminishes all the major points established in the series prior and needed some way to take him out of the picture completely. Even Goku saving Dende and Satan is a consequence of that, because Gohan would've trashed Kid Buu so hard it would be a terribly anticlimactic ending to the arc. Besides, it's not like he needed to save Dende for Dragon Balls, since the Namekian ones are there readily available.

However, after the latest episode of Super, Gohan getting this weak in such a short period makes no sense. I don't understand how he could have trouble maintaining Super Saiyan form when he and Goku mastered that form. He had no problem accessing it and SSJ2 after 7 years of no training. Gohan states/complains so many times he hasn't trained when he's struggling with an opponent and does nothing about it to prepare in case another threat comes, especially with Pan born and him wanting her to live in peace.I just don't understand what they're doing with him. I'm not asking for Cell saga Gohan, I'm asking for someone competent enough to at least stay in shape in case danger comes by and not whine about skipping on training when he's getting his ass handed to him.

[precita]

A lot of you are also forgetting that even after Gohan returns to Earth to fight Buu...its only 3 episodes long. We literally sit there for 15 episodes or however long it was watching Gohan do nothing but train with the Z sword and sit with elder kai...then he's finally ready and his fight is....3 episodes.

Gotenks at least got to fight for several episodes in 3 different forms. Mystic Gohan got what...3 measly episodes? It was ridiculously short.

[Kunzait_83]

What happened to Yamcha was bullshit. I agree with that, but Yamcha and Gohan are far from being deserving of equal treatment. Yamcha was and always is going to be a side character. As soon as Toriyama expanded the story to aliens and Saiyans (who dwarf humans in power), Yamcha was as good as done.

I disagree with this, at least if we're gonna backpedal to the early/mid point of Z. I definitely think that sidelining characters like Yamucha, Kuririn, and Tenshinhan throughout the Cell arc (Yamucha and Ten sorta needed to be dead and sidelined for purposes of the Freeza arc's entire main plot), at least to the extent that they were, was a mistake and one of the arc's weaknesses. I'd always felt that they should've learned the Kaioken technique and been kept around more to help further spice up and keep the arc more diverse beyond Piccolo and the Saiya-jin or half-Saiya-jin fighters.

The Boo arc was (up until the last minute Goku switch) all about "passing the torch to the next generation" so its more understandable there why old timers like them wouldn't be as much of a focus anymore.

But again, that's all "woulda coulda shoulda".

But no, let's wax philosophically about how Gohan is being mistreated, despite still being the third strongest character in the main cast (fifth if you want to count Beerus and Whis as main cast) even with falling behind on his training - not to mention most of his power he got through various methods that barely involved any training - and getting to have a happy family life. Poor him.

Well firstly, being relegated to SSJ probably means that he's below Gotenks in power but that's beside the point. Yes, it's true that he does have a happy family life, but shouldn't he then logically feel the need to protect said family and life? It makes zero sense for him to be aware of threats like Beerus, get constantly defeated by returning villains like Freeza and yet still feel no guilt or responsibility to improve and protect the ones he loves most. Saying that "well he can just rely on Goku/Vegeta to protect him" is a lame excuse and really, it makes Gohan look like a despicable individual. THAT in my opinion is more out of character than having him train once in a while, especially now that he has two important reasons to (Videl & Pan).

I think for purposes of BoG/Super it makes sense that Gohan would once more be slacking off in his training: again, historically he's had a long history of doing so in between major arcs and conflicts, and Beerus did show up more or less out of the blue and without warning.

Again Toriyama ended up sticking with Goku as the central fighter by the end of Z and Gohan was never really given the further development of wanting to more fully take on the life of a martial artist. I definitely agree that it seemed VERY much like he was on that arc for the vast bulk of his time in the series, but that arc was effectively abandoned and dropped by the end of the Boo arc (which I definitely agree is one of the Boo arc's biggest flaws and failings: that arc SHOULD'VE been taken to its logical conclusion, not walked away from to awkwardly shoehorn Goku back into the lead central role, but again woulda coulda shoulda: its been 20 years since the original series run finished).

In terms of where things stand with him by the end of Z, with Boo defeated and things calmed down, it's a valid choice to have Gohan still be looking for an opening to sidle away from the life of a dedicated martial artist. I don't think that him not taking the "paranoid/proactive" approach and stick to training SOLELY for the benefit of protecting his family on the off chance that someday MAYBE some weird shit on the level of Cell or Boo might crop up again (and in the manga/Z's original ending, the time jump sure made it appear as if that wasn't going to happen) makes him "despicable": that's WAY too strong a word and big of a jump for what this is. I think it makes him simply a normal guy (or a "scholar" in wuxia archetypal terms) who simply has no taste for combat or the life of a martial artist. Plain and simple, the way Z ends and the direction Toriyama is continuing to take him with all this Super stuff, Gohan just doesn't want any part in all this.

Again though, I AGREE that his skills shouldn't have skidded anywhere NEAR as much as they have in the exceedingly short time span between Boo's defeat and Super/BoG, lack of training or no (if Super was post-Z's original ending time jump that'd be a tad bit more plausible, but it doesn't, it picks up not terribly long after Boo's demise): but I'm also not a fan of or defender of Super in general anyway. I'm not participating in this little debate to be a Super apologist (I couldn't be farther from one, at this point at least): just making the point that considering how things ended off with Gohan in Z (kinda open-ended really), having Gohan move further away from the whole Youxia thing is a perfectly valid choice to take the character and one that is absolutely in line with his behavior and characterization from throughout the series, should one want to further continue DB's story past the Boo arc stuff (which at this point I don't think is really a great idea anyway, but that's beside the point).

If we're going to get more post-Z material with Goku still as our lead, then you should probably not be terribly shocked for there to have been at least SOME manner of regression in Gohan's fighting ability, as Gohan has ALWAYS had a very consistent history of lapsing in his training in favor of school & study in between major fights and conflicts while only ever really stepping up and pushing himself in cases where he's absolutely NEEDED by his family and friends in the most urgent life or death scenarios. Hell, one of the rare times we ever see him engage in a more sportsman-like "for fun" martial arts tournament (25th Budokai) he had to be out and out BLACKMAILED into doing it.

Having Gohan seriously focus on and maintain/improve his martial arts skills on his own during significant downtime, acting as if he really gives a crap about that life the way his dad and his dad's friends all do, would by this point be much, much more out of character for him in general. The whole scholar thing, etc. If you seriously expect X number of years to pass without major incident after the whole Boo thing ending the way it did and for Gohan to have been spending all that time hurling himself into constant training and sharpening his "Mystic"-era peak skills, you clearly haven't been paying much attention to his actual personality and behavior throughout the whole damn series. He's only EVER been a "badass" when his hand has been absolutely and unavoidably forced into it (though granted of course those moments certainly were all more than substantially badass).

I agree that Gohan doesn't have anywhere near the same interest in fighting as Goku does but I think it's important to remember that Gohan had absolutely nothing to gain from fighting regular humans in the 25th Budokai. Entering of his own accord would mean that he'd essentially be exploiting his Saiyan abilities for money and fame which... obviously doesn't jive with his established good nature. At that point in the story Gohan's main goal was to try and get through high school without anyone recognizing him from the Cell games or finding out about his power, entering himself into a globally broadcasted event would have meant risking blowing his cover and that in itself would be a good enough reason to stay away (nevermind Chi-chi's influence). Point is, I don't think that example is a fair justification for him never wanting to fight especially considering all the other things he had to worry about.

I do think it's also worth considering that we actually do see him show interest in training as soon as Goku decides to enter the tournament. Not only that but, once he discovers the true potential of Goten and Trunks he expresses worry at the thought of being surpassed by them. He might not be a fighting junkie but at the very least he did, at one time, take some semblance of pride in his abilities and reputation as a fighter. To say he had zero interest in fighting always seemed like a dishonest excuse to me.

Those are all excellent points and I (mostly) agree with them.

But again, its fair to remember that at that point, Gohan was still seemingly on the road to taking over the series from Goku as the central hero: I think that all of this points more as evidence that Toriyama was likely and obviously planning to set up Gohan as more of a proper successor to his father down the road (before awkwardly backing out of it).

The one thing I WILL dissent with you on here, if only a little bit, is that I don't think Gohan takes the training or the tournament anywhere near as seriously as you seem to imply: at this point in the series, Gohan's still DEFINITELY more on the "scholar" than "warrior" end of the equation, and hasn't been training much at all (focusing instead on his studies) until the Budokai thing crops up. Once the Budokai DOES get pushed on him by Videl, Vegeta's the one who kickstarts the idea of making it more "interesting" by entering to fight/test himself against Gohan (who he still thinks of as "that fucking brat who beat Cell and won the Cell Games instead of me"), which then gets Goku (eavesdropping from the afterlife) excited and involved. The Budokai then goes from something Gohan REALLY had no interest in doing to an excuse to have a great big reunion with his dad and the old Z gang.

I think that all of this was WAY more casual for him, and he definitely saw the martial arts thing at this point as more of a "hobby" and a means of bonding more with his dad and hanging out with his friends (all of whom are also martial artists/Youxia). He's not taking ANY of this remotely as seriously as Goku, Vegeta, or any of the others would/do.

All of that's perfectly fine at this point: having Gohan go from "fuck martial arts, I'm scared of it cause it always involves forcing me to face terrifying monsters (of the literal and figurative kind)" to "yeah this IS kinda fun as a little thing to do on the side with my family and friends from time to time" is definitely developing more towards pushing him to eventually further embrace fighting (again though, on his own terms and without making him purely a Goku clone) more as the Boo arc progressed. But again, we all know how THAT wound up.

And as far as being "worried" about Goten surpassing him: c'mon man, Goten's all of fucking 7 years old at that point. I think almost ANY 16 year old, no matter HOW much of a bookworm they might be, wouldn't very much like the idea that their 7 year old kid brother can whip their ass in a fight. I don't think that's really THAT much of an indicator that Gohan has anywhere NEAR the same level of pride in his skills as folks like his dad and the Z crew do: it was a funny little moment more than anything else.

There may be a misconception in here somewhere, so let me make something clear: I have NO problem with Gohan being a scholar who doesn't train or enjoy fighting anymore. I have a problem with the execution of his portrayal.

Know what I also wouldn't like? For Gohan to quit his studies, take up fighting full-time, and become a Goku clone or identical to Future Gohan in a show where the spotlight is almost entirely on Goku and Vegeta. Of course, if this happened, and I complained, someone out there would write, "some people are never satisfied."

To add further to the above post, I'd like to highlight something I wrote earlier:

For the record, I do certainly think that the Boo arc as a story in itself would've probably overall fared better with a more satisfying and organic-feeling resolution if Gohan somehow DID wind up fully taking center stage from his dad and somehow in his own way learned to embrace martial arts to some degree and end the series off with him carrying his father's legacy forward as a fighting master of the next generation of warriors.

In my "ideal" scenario for the Boo arc's ending, or even just going forward in Super for that matter, I would damn sure NOT in any way want Gohan to turn into a carbon copy clone of Goku in ANY way. In another thread I praised him precisely for NOT being a mini version of his dad from the getgo of his introduction. Youxia certainly come in a MUCH wider variety of flavors than merely Goku's "book-dumb man of the wilderness" one, and if Gohan for whatever reason in either a pointlessly fan-wanked hypothetical/imaginary version of the end of Z or in some actual new future material WERE to ever embrace fighting more, I would say that the best way to do it would be for him to find his passion for it on HIS own terms rather than his dad's or anyone else's (the events of the Cell Games had certainly effectively hammered home the folly of trying to "force" Gohan into being Goku II: The Sequel), finding some way of reconciling his pacifism with his fighting skills in a way that doesn't come across as forced.

Tricky to pull off, so its easy to see why Toriyama gave up on that, certainly at least back in the day where by the time he got to Gohan's teen/high school years he was about as exhausted and drained as you'd expect from anyone drawing the same comic steadily week in & week out for roughly a decade, while also juggling bits of work with the anime's production staff on the side.

Love food, love fighting, and do pretty much absolutely nothing beyond maybe 1 or 2 things. That's Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis in a nutshell. It's boring.

Goku and Beerus sure, but I don't remember Vegeta ever being much of a food junkie at any point in the original series (unless you count his cannibalistic streak during his days as one of Freeza's mercs ). Is this now associated with him because of that whole asinine "cooking" thing in Super or something?

This is true. People keep bringing up that this is consistent with his personality, but there one side of him, a very important and established trait that has been focused on more than his love for studying, something that has made him different from his father and the other saiyans. He fights for others. He fights to protect those he cares about. Here's something they could have grabbed onto and used as a reason to keep him interested in fighting. Not for the love of a challenge, we have enough of those around, but for genuinely wanting to protect something/someone.

We DID actually have a character like that who possessed precisely such a motivation in the original series: that was basically Future Trunks.

Gohan was never the character during the original run that his fans like to play him up as. He was never a warrior with a love for battle and was never fit for taking on a major role as a lead. His portrayal now is in line with this.

Bingo. Gohan is kind of like the black sheep in the family, he never was passionate about fighting like his parents or other siblings. He never intended to follow in his father's footsteps, he wanted to make his own. I love the idea that perhaps the most powerful fighter in that universe really doesn't like the idea of fighting but when he needs to he will.

While I certainly don't at all agree that he was "never fit for taking on a major role as lead" (I think he would've made a perfectly fine main protagonist for the Boo arc) the rest of this I'm more or less on board with. Especially this part:

I love the idea that perhaps the most powerful fighter in that universe really doesn't like the idea of fighting but when he needs to he will.

VERY well put, and I think that if Gohan DID end up succeeding his dad back in the day, THIS conceit is the way you'd get him there without making him a 1 to 1 Goku knockoff and keeping his character unique and true to how he'd been developed over time.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan appearing so weak in the Golden Freeza arc is probably merely a result of a lack of time, good animators and drawings available to the production staff of Super. Then again, I think this applies to everyone, especially Piccolo.

When I say Gohan wouldn't make a good lead I meant within the context of Dragon Ball as it typically is. Martial arts stories don't fit Gohan, they fit Gokuu. Gohan does't train nor does he want to be the best. Making Gohan the lead would require a completely different kind of story that doesn't match what Toriyama typically does.

[Kunzait_83]

When I say Gohan wouldn't make a good lead I meant within the context of Dragon Ball as it typically is. Martial arts stories don't fit Gohan, they fit Gokuu. Gohan does't train nor does he want to be the best. Making Gohan the lead would require a completely different kind of story that doesn't match what Toriyama typically does.

While your summation of Gohan's character is totally correct, I disagree that Gohan's wuxia scholar finding within himself some form of passion for martial arts and reason to take it on as a part of his life and his family's legacy wouldn't have made for a good martial arts story. That's a GREAT idea for a wuxia narrative: and Toriyama already had plenty of precedent earlier in DB for stretching and wandering away from the kinds of stories he "typically does". Up until DB he was the Dr. Slump guy, and all his other works were similarly flighty and featherweight. Dragon Ball began on more or less that same track but it WILDLY swerved into something else altogether, at first gradually, and then MUCH more sharply once Piccolo figured into things.

The entire Piccolo through Cell arcs (a pretty vast swath of the series) are in many ways HUGE diversions from Toriyama's typical style: enough to the point that it downright ALIENATED a certain chunk of his more diehard fans, at least here in the West way back when. The Boo arc was only a PARTIAL return to his roots, it's more a strange/interesting hybrid of the earlier and later parts of the series insofar as its tone and execution goes (and generally leans a LOT more on the later part all thing's considered).

I disagree with the notion of pigeonholing any artist into a specific box of "this is what they should stick to doing": that's effectively telling an artist to "never take any real creative risks". Stretching and trying something different in and of itself should just about always be welcome things. Dragon Ball got WAY more interesting, cool, culturally impactful, and well liked precisely BECAUSE Toriyama took some big risks with it and expanded well far beyond what he typically did up to that point.

Telling a story of a pacifist without an interest in or passion for martial arts coming to a point naturally and on their own terms of embracing and accepting it as a part of who they are after many, many years of having it forced and thrust upon them against their will and running from it, that's a more than sound and excellent idea for a martial arts story, and it would've been no more bigger a stretch for Toriyama and for DB in general than from taking the series from where it began at Pilaf to the utterly grave places it'd end up going by the Piccolo, Saiya-jin, Freeza, and Cell arcs.

Its a much more inherently inward, introspective, and character-driven premise for a story (or even just a side or sub-plot, which something like that very obviously likely would've been) than DB generally had done up till then, with Toriyama himself freely admitting that he struggles greatly with these things, but its not like DB hadn't briefly flirted with characters questioning/re-examining themselves for fits and spurts beforehand - Goku's slow accepting of his Saiya-jin heritage, Piccolo's growing bond with Gohan and rejecting of his demonic roots/nature, Vegeta's gradual "epiphany" at the climax of the Boo arc, etc. These characters are ultimately very broad archetypes, but they're not ENTIRELY and 100% without ANY shade or nuance whatsoever: they'd be utterly lifeless and hollow were that the case.

Plus Toriyama has also said many times in the past that he's not good at or comfortable with telling darker stories: but he still tried it, completely willingly and without anyone forcing or pressuring him into it (I don't think his editor had THAT much sway over him, from most accounts he guided less inherently fundamental, deeply-rooted aspects of the story), and he still managed to pull it off by and large successfully for a significant length of the series.

Saying that it couldn't have possibly worked to me would be no different than going back in time to around the time of the Jackie Chun arc and answering the hypothetical question of "wouldn't it be a neat idea if these same characters later on faced off against a space army/kingdom of genocidal Nazi-esque lunatics?" with "no way in hell that would or could EVER work". Granted that'd be a TOTALLY understandable reaction considering, but look at how that wound up ultimately turning out. Again, no risk no reward, nothing ventured nothing gained, etc.

Ultimately at the end of the day its all moot: Toriyama himself, totally willingly, chose to back away from not only Dragon Ball in general for many years (for totally understandable reasons to be sure) but also from straying very far from his "gag manga" identity. That's who he decided he ultimately is, and that's a thousand percent fine, its his life and career to do with whatever he damn well wishes.

But I personally, as a one-time fan/reader/viewer, feel that what he did with DB that strayed the furthest from his creative origins wound up making DB into something VASTLY more memorable and special than if it had simply remained "Wuxia Dr. Slump" throughout its entire run and am personally grateful for the time, however limited it ultimately was, of him exploring ideas and concepts well outside his general comfort zone.

[dbzfan7]

Love food, love fighting, and do pretty much absolutely nothing beyond maybe 1 or 2 things. That's Goku, Vegeta, Beerus, and Whis in a nutshell. It's boring.

Goku and Beerus sure, but I don't remember Vegeta ever being much of a food junkie at any point in the original series (unless you count his cannibalistic streak during his days as one of Freeza's mercs ). Is this now associated with him because of that whole asinine "cooking" thing in Super or something?

Vegeta is a saiyan. So his priorities are pretty much food and fighting. They naturally have huge appetites. In Super's case, watch episode 2 where he goes crazy with all the food he gets. He and Goku get into a fight about food in the 2008 special. Vegeta definitely falls into the category of "Loves food, fighing, and has pretty much no life outside of that." Essentially the criteria of if you're allowed to be useful or important.

[Kunzait_83]

Vegeta is a saiyan. So his priorities are pretty much food and fighting. They naturally have huge appetites. In Super's case, watch episode 2 where he goes crazy with all the food he gets. He and Goku get into a fight about food in the 2008 special. Vegeta definitely falls into the category of "Loves food, fighing, and has pretty much no life outside of that." Essentially the criteria of if you're allowed to be useful or important.

All of those are examples from the recent stuff. Vegeta exhibited almost NO obsessive interest in food or eating during the original series. If he does now, that's definitely a new thing for him, and while small, definitely feels kinda lame to tack onto him (if for no other reason than "SHONEN HERO LOVE FOOD!!!" is about the most beyond fucking tired and annoying shit at this point). There's also nothing that I can ever remember being said anywhere about Saiya-jin having naturally bigger appetites (if someone else can cite something to correct me, all the more so if it isn't something from a fucking guidebook, please feel free): as far as I can recall, the whole "big appetite" thing was primarily Goku's shtick.

ALL the other characters from Yamucha and Kuririn on down, exhibited some random examples of "ravenous appetites" in the past, but that came almost ENTIRELY from exerting themselves in training and fighting, and always came across more as a general "the harder you work, the hungrier you get, so these guys tend to get REALLY hungry" gag. As far as a steady fixation on food goes, again, that was always really just Goku's thing: and has over the years grown to be among the more irritating and shallow things that later shonen series have taken from DB.