Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Kaboom]

However, we can't prove he wasn't just sensing a suppressed Goku. Therefore we don't have anything reliable with the proof in question. I disagree with the nature of the proof.

The problem is that this entire "suspect until proven correct" approach of yours is bonkers. I can understand it in some situations, where the character is just predicting something or taking a detached guess rather than seeing and measuring it for themselves. Like Goku guessing how strong Gotenks would end up, for example.

But when the character is right there, able to observe the other person up-close and personal before concluding something about their power? No, there's absolutely no reason to question them unless the content actually gives a reason. The movie (and Super) didn't create or offer any room for doubt, but you're trying to force it in there anyway.

But now suddenly we just assume these estimates are always right? Ok so let's do that. Then Dabura is right too. You can't have it both ways.

Bobbidi and Dabra's little comment is not nearly as direct as you're treating it. Unlike with Beerus judging Goku, we know there are other variables involved.

• The heroes are all suppressing themselves (and actually explicitly said to be, no assumptions necessary) up on that hill, but Bobbidi and Dabra detect them anyway, so clearly something other than traditional ki-sensing is going on.
• Bobbidi and Dabra also correctly guess that the "marvelous energy" the Saiyans possess will let them release Boo soon. Which actually happens thanks to —look at that— their Super Saiyan 2 power rather than their base power.
• Despite that, Bobbidi and Dabra are still bad judges of how that power compares to others, since they very mistakenly believe that folks on their side other than Boo himself could defeat the Saiyans. Even Dabra would have been toast if Gohan was able to go all-out on him, not to even mention if he faced Goku or Vegeta.
• Finally, as the cherry on top, you've got the guidebooks telling us that "trash" Kibito has a power level comparable to that of "marvelous" base Gohan.

So obviously there's a lot else going on, and it's not very direct at all. When you put it all together, consider everything as a whole, the end result is "Dabra and Bobbidi detected something deeper." It's not a simple comparison of the base Saiyans to Piccolo or Kaioshin.

Meanwhile, Beerus' statement about Goku is nowhere near as convoluted. He says "you can't beat Freeza unless you power up by going Super Saiyan." That's it. No suppression shenanigans going on, no magical clairvoyance, no reason to question anyone's ki-sensing skills, no guidebook addenda, no extra elements at all. Just one of the most straightforward "A > B" statements we've ever been given.


So, yet again... Beerus' line means what it means, and no proof exists to the contrary. Ignore it because you don't like it if you want, but it doesn't need to be proven correct, nor is it anyone's' responsibility to do so.

[MisterGuyMan]

The problem is that this entire "suspect until proven correct" approach of yours is bonkers. I can understand it in some situations, where the character is just predicting something or taking a detached guess rather than seeing and measuring it for themselves. Like Goku guessing how strong Gotenks would end up, for example.

But when the character is right there, able to observe the other person up-close and personal before concluding something about their power? No, there's absolutely no reason to question them unless the content actually gives a reason. The movie (and Super) didn't create or offer any room for doubt, but you're trying to force it in there anyway.

Again we're not even disagreeing on most of it. He's right there. Right. He's observing him. Right. So the question is WHAT is Beers observing? You're already going into the discussion assuming that we know what Beers is measuring and then further arguing that questioning that is to question a tantamount to ignoring evidence. Until we prove what the evidence is actually saying there's nothing that we need to contradict.

My position is pretty simple. There's more evidence for the base Saiyans and more compelling evidence too.

The Bobbidi and Dabra's little comment is not nearly as direct as you're treating it. Unlike with Beerus judging Goku, we know there are other variables involved.

• The heroes are all suppressing themselves (and actually explicitly said to be, no assumptions necessary) up on that hill, but Bobbidi and Dabra detect them anyway, so clearly something other than traditional ki-sensing is going on.
  
  Bobbidi and Dabra also correctly guess that the "marvelous energy" the Saiyans possess will let them release Boo soon. Which actually happens thanks to —look at that— their Super Saiyan 2 power rather than their base power.
  
  Despite that, Bobbidi and Dabra are still bad judges of how that power compares to others, since they very mistakenly believe that folks on their side other than Boo himself could defeat the Saiyans. Even Dabra would have been toast if Gohan was able to go all-out on him, not to even mention if he faced Goku or Vegeta.
  
  Finally, as the cherry on top, you've got the guidebooks telling us that "trash" Kibito has a power level comparable to that of "marvelous" base Gohan.

So obviously there's a lot else going on, and it's not very direct at all. When you put it all together, consider everything as a whole, the end result is "Dabra and Bobbidi detected something deeper." It's not a simple comparison of the base Saiyans to Piccolo or Kaioshin.

Meanwhile, Beerus' statement about Goku is nowhere near as convoluted. He says "you can't beat Freeza unless you power up by going Super Saiyan." That's it. No suppression shenanigans going on, no magical clairvoyance, no reason to question anyone's ki-sensing skills, no guidebook addenda, no extra elements at all. Just one of the most straightforward "A > B" statements we've ever been given.

So, yet again... Beerus' line means what it means, and no proof exists to the contrary. Ignore it because you don't like it if you want, but it doesn't need to be proven correct, nor is it anyone's' responsibility to do so.

You're basically just arguing that your special subtleties should be treated as gospel but my subtleties should be marked with automatic cynicism. So why are we just assuming Beers knows everything and is measuring exactly what you think he's measuring? By that same token why are we assuming the exact opposite for Vegeta, Kaio Shin, Dabura and Bobiti? There needs to be an equal standard. Moreover out of all of them the one with most knowledge is Vegeta who knows Frieza, knows how powerful Goku was when he beat him and still agreed to a SSJ handicap. So that's the strongest piece of evidence. The actual preponderance of evidence sides with the base Saiyans too with statements from Vegeta, Babidi, Dabura and Kaio Shin.

Dabura and Babidi had no idea Goku, Vegeta and Gohan could turn SSJ. So they're just gauging the base forms. Then you argue that they're bad judges of power and just assume Beers is better. Beers actually measures Goku's biceps in BoG so how is that an expert way of measuring hidden power? We don't know how powerful Kibito is so I don't understand the comparison there. We know Piccolo. We know he's stronger than Frieza. Dabura identifies all three base Saiyans as stronger that Piccolo and thus Frieza. I don't even like the Dabura evidence all that much. It's still stronger than the Beers statement though since in this case Dabura is IDing three base Saiyans whereas Beers is only comparing one. That's literally a 3 to 1 advantage in actual comparisons. Neither of us can prove what either were guaging though so outside of that they're equally questionable.

How about Vegeta? He thinks he can win the tournament without SSJ. He just forgot that 18 and Piccolo can beat him silly without SSJ? Also Kaio Shin. He says Babidi's henchmen are strong. Then he's shocked at how powerful Vegeta is. He also wants help against Yakon and Pui Pui and even though he can one shot Frieza, somehow the base Saiyans can do stuff he wants help for. Statement for statement the preponderance of evidence sides with the base Saiyans.

[Kaboom]

I want to drive home how inane the "Beerus was wrong because Goku was suppressed" excuse is. We've never had to assume a character is suppressed, or been left wondering if a character is holding back or not. If they are, then as I mentioned earlier they're almost always revealed to be. Here's all the examples I can remember...

• Kuririn thinks Goku exerted himself against King Chappa: Goku says "nah, if I gave it my all, he'd be dead."
• Tenshinhan intends to kill Goku and seems to be winning: Goku reveals he's only been using his "tournament power," and ramps it up to his "battle power."
• Goku is struggling against King Piccolo: Ol' KP reveals that he's been using less than half his power.
• Nappa's already anxious about fighting Goku's PL of 5,000: Goku makes it even worse for him by powering up to over 8,000.
• Freeza's two scouts think Gohan and Kuririn are weaklings: They release their 1,500-ish PLs and easily beat them.
• Kwi thinks Vegeta's PL is still 18,000: Vegeta reveals he learned how to change his power, then goes up to his full 24,000 and kills Kwi.
• Freeza's soldiers think Future Trunks' PL is only 5: The heroes in the distance feel Trunks' power drastically increase when he easily kills the soldiers.
• Future Gohan thinks he can take the Androids: Seventeen reveals he used less than half his power last time they fought, then kills him.
• Super Vegeta is still doing OK against Perfect Cell: Kuririn and Vegeta both seem to realize Cell is holding back, and Cell quickly proves them right.
• Goku isn't sure how strong Perfect Cell is ahead of time: Cell eventually reveals his full power against Gohan.
• Piccolo wonders if SS3 Goku could have beaten Fat Boo: Goku later reveals that yes, he could have.
• Tarble scans Goku, doesn't think he can help against Avo and Cado: Goku powers up and goes Super Saiyan. Tarble's scouter explodes.

And so on and so forth. I'm sure there's others that I'm missing. But meanwhile, in Battle of Gods and Super...

• Beerus says Goku can't beat Freeza, but can gain power by going Super Saiyan: He is never shown, stated, or even hinted to be incorrect.

He's observing him. Right. So the question is WHAT is Beers observing?

His full power. Until something, anything, exists to demonstrate that it's not. As of now, nothing does.

You're basically just arguing that your special subtleties should be treated as gospel but my subtleties should be marked with automatic cynicism.

I'm not arguing anything because there's nothing to argue. I'm pointing out that the Bobbidi and Dabra situation has any such subtleties to begin with. In that case, there are other elements that result in a less straightforward answer when all brought together.

The Beerus line has no such other elements. It's just the line and the line alone, with nothing there to contradict or modify it.

How about Vegeta? He thinks he can win the tournament without SSJ

Vegeta never claims he'll win the tournament or is "stronger than everybody participating even without Super Saiyan." THAT would be a direct line from the manga that actually contradicts the one in Battle of Gods, at least partially. But the conversation is "let's not use Super Saiyan," and Vegeta agrees because he believes he's still the strongest Saiyan with or without it. Piccolo and Eighteen are not Saiyans. He doesn't mention them, even as a larger group, and so they don't have to be considered part of the conversation.

BEFORE we were given Beerus' line, this could be used as part of a "Saiyans > Freeza" argument. But now, in light of something so much more plain and direct, it's easily explained in other ways like the one I just offered.



Like I thought, this is going in circles and getting a little extra pointless. The following paragraph is 100% fact and all that needs to be said on the topic.

"In both Battle of Gods and Super, Beerus gave a direct power statement comparing base Goku to Freeza, saying that the former cannot defeat the latter but can power up [and presumably change that] by going Super Saiyan. It is the individual fan's prerogative whether to accept Beerus' line or ignore it, because it ultimately makes no large difference in anything important. However, nothing exists so far to prove the line wrong in any substantial or factual manner. Some things in the Majin Boo arc can be interpreted to imply to the contrary, but are far less direct and can easily be explained in other ways if seen as an issue."


There. Hopefully others reading the thread will benefit from what I've posted, because Dende knows I've used up enough of my afternoon doing it.

[Speedster]

WHAT? SS is only a 5x boost? then why just don't use KK? Goku could use KK x10 without strain, so why didn't he use that? He could also use KK x20 with little strain. If goku didn't use it, that proves that SS is a boost not less than 20x.

The Kaioken power up inconsistency.
The 50x multiplier only comes as a derivative of KKx20 Goku=50% Freeza and the presumption that KKx20 multiplies your power level by 20x. But in all likelihood Kaio-Ken is NOT a power level multiplier from the Android arc onwards. And most probably this dates back to the Freeza arc too. And here is why:

A 90K Goku said he could do a KKx10 without a problem. Yet a 3M Goku could only do 20x? How is this? An 11-fold increase in base (~8K to ~90K) resulted going from KKx4 to KKx10 (i.e. 2.5x increase in KK multiplier), yet a 33-fold one (90K to 3M) only resulted going from KKx10 to KKx20 (i.e. 2x increase in KK multiplier) and even that with difficulty? One would expect Goku to be able to use KKx75 against Freeza if that whole KK power up was following any consistent rules. It follows then that this this whole excuse of KK putting strain in his body is inconsistent with the Kaioken multipliers and his base power level increases in overcoming the KK limitations. So why do you expect the Kaio-ken multiplier to still multiply Goku’s base power level by the same amount? And why he couldn't do KKx100 by the Cell arc when even according to your lowballing base power levels he increased his base power level by a further 5x since the Freeza arc? A Kaiokenx100 would be as strong as SSJ2 after all. See the issue with the Kaioken?

Why the SSJ multiplier is only 4-5x instead of 50x
Clearly past the Freeza arc the base form of Goku both in the canon Buu arc and in the entire animated franchise (movies and fillers included) is not portrayed as weaker than Piccolo. And certainly their foes are not holding back to their 1% for them to be fought in base. It makes far more sense the base to be 10x or 12.5x stronger than what people like you give it credit for and the SSJ1 to appear as a 5x or 4x multiplier. The total result as to where SSJ Goku stands is the same and works perfectly fine.

Another thing is the new material we see in Dragonball Super.
1. Base Gohan> Piccolo. A slacked off Gohan that could not even go SSJ2 anymore so definitely weaker than the start of the Buu arc.

2. Saiyan Beyond God Goku/Vegeta (base forms) are not 50x weaker than their SSJ Blue forms. And that because the Base Saiyan Beyond God level they reached is above what raged SSJ2 Vegeta was against Beerus (against whom Beerus used 10% of his power). One would expect that this Saiyan beyond God is somewhere 15-20% of Beerus and then by turning SSJ they become SSJ with Blue hair. SSJ Blue needs to be around 75%-80% of Beerus (we know that they are stronger than SSJG Goku in BoGs but still considerably weaker than Beerus). Anyway from 15-20% of Beerus to 75-80% is a 4-5x "multiplier".

Why the SSJ is a boost that appears as 4-5x multiplier
This 4-5x multiplier is not a literal multiplication of your base power level. It just appears to be such a multiplier. SSJ is most likely a boost which is added to your base power level. For example going back to the Freeza/Android arc even if you still want to maintain that KKx20 increased Goku’s power level by 20x then SSJ was simply a big boost (equal to 49x the base) which when added to Goku’s base the end result appeared as being a 50-fold increase. But with Goku’s training his base increased so this addition ended up corresponding to a 4-5x increase.

In RoSaT Goku trained to increase his base but also trained to unlock a bigger SSJ boost. That was why SSJ was considered to have a barrier/limit. There wouldn't be such references to SSJ if SSJ was directly linked with the base as a static 50x multiplier. There would be references that the base is capped. But, no, it was the SSJ boost that we are told it was capped. And think about it. If that wasn't the case you would train your base and experience a 50 fold increase as a Super Saiyan. Goku must have been a huge moron then if he didn't do that in his preparation for the Androids and instead for no reason trained his SSJ and gain 50x smaller increases. On top of that it makes ZERO sense for Piccolo to out-gain Goku in increases (and in such a spectacular fashion too) given that he started from a lower power level than Goku and that later as Kamiccolo in RoSaT was outgained by Vegeta (and Goku even further).

What makes much more sense is that SSJ boosts (after experiencing the very first one) are unlocked for the first time when they reach a certain base power level or something. Goku kept rising his base and kept unlocking SSJ boosts in such a way that the SSJ1 power up appears to be a 4-5x multiplier of his base from the Android arc onwards. Now had Goku slacked off like Gohan did in RoF he would still have access to the majority of his SSJ boost and the power up would appear as a bigger multiplier. However his weaker body would feel too strained to maintain this hyper-excited state resulting from this big addition. That is why Gohan could not maintain the SSJ form in Super for long. His body was too weak for such a boost.

If you put it mathematically it is like this:
Gohan’s normal base
Start of training in the RoSaT in Cell arc=A
Cell games=7A
Gohan’s base start of Buu arc=5A
Gohan’s base RoF=3A

Gohan's SSJ1 boosts:
First ever SSJ1 boost in RosaT=9A
Total SSJ1 boost by the Cell games=28A

Gohan as a Super Saiyan:
SSJ Gohan (first transformation in RoSaT)=1A+9A=10A
SSJ Gohan (Cell games)=7A+28A=35A
SSJ Gohan’s (start of Buu arc)=5A+25A=30A
SSJ Gohan (RoF)=3A+18A=21A

[Darkprince410]

Clearly past the Freeza arc the base form of Goku both in the canon Buu arc and in the entire animated franchise (movies and fillers included) is not portrayed as weaker than Piccolo. And certainly their foes are not holding back to their 1% for them to be fought in base. It makes far more sense the base to be 10x or 12.5x stronger than what people like you give it credit for and the SSJ1 to appear as a 5x or 4x multiplier. The total result as to where SSJ Goku stands is the same and works perfectly fine.

There's nothing actually showing that base Goku was stronger than Piccolo during the course of the Buu Saga, so I don't see where you're coming from with this. Kaioushin was shown to be horrible when it came to judging battle powers, so the whole "Vegeta's ease of taking out Pui Pui" evidence people uses falls flat. I mean, the guy thought that they'd all need to take on Yakon together in order to win, despite having sensed Gohan's Ssj2 strength only a short time before, yet he was weak enough that base Goku and Gohan, working together, would have been able to take him out.

Additionally, there's enough anecdotal evidence, given that's described about Spopovitch, Yakon, and Dabra, that Babi-di's men, when under the full effect of his charm, doesn't have detectable ki. It was established that they couldn't sense Spopovitch's life, that they had to use air currents to detect Yakon's movements in the Realm of Darkness, and that Goku based his estimates on Dabra's strength in relation to Cell's on Dabra's movements as well. If they could sense their ki, it wouldn't make sense for them to need to use other means to track/estimate them.

Then, take into account that Piccolo was the one that Buu was expressing after Gotenks' fusion wore off, even though Goten and Trunks were, even before their time in the RoSaT, right up there with the adults (and their increase within the Room was substantial), which still lends more to Piccolo being stronger.

1. Base Gohan> Piccolo. A slacked off Gohan that could not even go SSJ2 anymore so definitely weaker than the start of the Buu arc.

Except there's nothing saying that this Gohan doesn't still have Rou Kaioushin's power-up as his base form, so even if he slacked off over the years, that'd still be a lofty mountain he was coming down from. Given he's going from drastically above Ssj3 Goku downward, he could lose a considerable bulk of his strength and still be above Piccolo.

[Speedster]

There's nothing actually showing that base Goku was stronger than Piccolo during the course of the Buu Saga, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.

Dabura outright says so. Goten and Trunks Vs #18. Vegeta confident to beat anyone. And many other examples that I will not go through again. Of course you are fully entitled to interpret them in whichever way fits your personal canon. I prefer to go by what makes the most sense.

Additionally, there's enough anecdotal evidence, given that's described about Spopovitch, Yakon, and Dabra, that Babi-di's men, when under the full effect of his charm, doesn't have detectable ki. It was established that they couldn't sense Spopovitch's life, that they had to use air currents to detect Yakon's movements in the Realm of Darkness, and that Goku based his estimates on Dabra's strength in relation to Cell's on Dabra's movements as well. If they could sense their ki, it wouldn't make sense for them to need to use other means to track/estimate them.

As explained earlier Kaioshin's reaction was based on what he sensed from base Goku and Vegeta. Not from the power of Yakkon or Pui Pui. Besides Kaioshin was confident he could beat Piccolo in the tournament. Same Kaioshin is impressed by base Goku. Same person gives to base Goku to throw the Katchin Cube. Kibito couldn't even lift the Z sword. Base Goku/Gohan could. And what sort of bodyguard Kibito is if he was weaker than even Freeza who Kaioshin consider a weakling?

Then, take into account that Piccolo was the one that Buu was expressing after Gotenks' fusion wore off, even though Goten and Trunks were, even before their time in the RoSaT, right up there with the adults (and their increase within the Room was substantial), which still lends more to Piccolo being stronger.

That happened with the kids in their base form though. They were only up there with the adults as Super Saiyans and they were not by any means equal. Also we know that Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the start of the Buu arc. Vegeta required the Majin boost to catch up with Goku. And Vegeta was above Gohan. So as SSJs Goku>Vegeta>Gohan>Goten/Trunks. Anyway here is an example of how it works:

Spoiler:

Pre-RoSaT
Base Goten/Trunks=1B
SSJ1 boost Goten/Trunks can tap into (Pre-RoSaT)=7.5B
SSJ1 Goten/Trunks=8.5B

Post RoSaT
Base Goten/Trunks=2.5B
SSJ1 boost Goten/Trunks can tap into (Post-RoSaT)=10B
SSJ1 Goten/Trunks=12.5B (apparent SSJ1 multiplier=5x)

Base Goku (Buu arc)=7B
SSJ1 boost Goku can tap into=21B
SSJ1 Goku=28B (apparent SSJ1 multiplier=4x)

Base Vegeta (pre Majin)=6B
SSJ1 boost Vegeta can tap into=15B
SSJ1 Vegeta (pre Majin)=21B (apparent SSJ1 multiplier=3.5x)

Base Gohan (start of Buu arc)=5.25B
SSJ1 boost Gohan can tap into=13.75B
SSJ1 Gohan=19B (apparent SSJ1 multiplier=3.62x)

Base Gohan (RoF)=4B
SSJ1 boost Gohan can tap into=13B
SSJ1 Gohan=17B (apparent SSJ1 multiplier=4.25x)

#18=2.25B
Piccolo=3.75B

Except there's nothing saying that this Gohan doesn't still have Rou Kaioushin's power-up as his base form, so even if he slacked off over the years, that'd still be a lofty mountain he was coming down from. Given he's going from drastically above Ssj3 Goku downward, he could lose a considerable bulk of his strength and still be above Piccolo.

Gohan flat out states that he cannot tap into his hidden powers (aka mystic form). Also are you suggesting that a Gohan with a higher base than the start of the Buu arc can’t maintain SSJ1 and cannot even go SSJ2 while a weaker Gohan can? Doesn't make any sense, does it? Also in the anime continuity (and Super belongs in the anime continuity by the way) Ultimate Gohan is certainly not drastically above SSJ3 Goku (in fact they are on par even by manga-only material but anyway this is off-topic).

[Darkprince410]

Dabura outright says so. Goten and Trunks Vs #18. Vegeta confident to beat anyone. And many other examples that I will not go through again. Of course you are fully entitled to interpret them in whichever way fits your personal canon. I prefer to go by what makes the most sense.

I'm going by what makes the most sense, given all the established facts. Dabra is far from a proficient individual when it comes to ki sensing, as seen by him confident that the likes of Pui Pui and Yakon would be able to easily handle Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta, despite that they had that "marvelous" power that would be able to revive Buu. If he thought that about them, then that means that, despite that it "seems" he could sense through their suppressed state, he really couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy.

Goten and Trunks weren't shown any sign of being able to beat #18 while in their base forms, because there's no indication that she was giving it her all. She still thought they were human, and was constantly surprised by how resilient they were. If they were stronger than her in their base forms, why would they need to transform and try to finish it with a ki blast (which they intentionally held back on) rather than just use a full power one in their base form?

So, by that logic, Vegeta was stronger than Freeza, was stronger than #18, was stronger than Perfect Cell, and so on. Vegeta is notorious for overestimating himself when it comes to his odds against his opponents, so why would this one suddenly be so different? Besides, there's multiple ways that his line can be interpreted.

1) Even without transforming, he's still the strongest Saiya-jin.

2) Who says he knows Piccolo and #18 are competing?

As explained earlier Kaioshin's reaction was based on what he sensed from base Goku and Vegeta. Not from the power of Yakkon or Pui Pui. Besides Kaioshin was confident he could beat Piccolo in the tournament. Same Kaioshin is impressed by base Goku. Same person gives to base Goku to throw the Katchin Cube. Kibito couldn't even lift the Z sword. Base Goku/Gohan could. And what sort of bodyguard Kibito is if he was weaker than even Freeza who Kaioshin consider a weakling?

It doesn't matter Kaioushin's reactions to them after the battles. The facts remain that he shouldn't have been impressed or shocked by the ability of Goku and the others to so easily take out Babi-di's men if he was good at sensing ki and/or Babi-di's men had ki that could be sensed (and I gave you the reasons behind that). Where are you getting that Kaioushin was confident he could beat Piccolo? He makes absolutely no comment even suggesting he was confident he could beat him, simply for them both to enjoy their battle together.

It should also be noted that it's not until he sees Goku's momentary transformation into Super Saiya-jin 2 that he really makes any indication that he's impressed/shocked by how powerful they are in comparison to him. He was surprised before, but only after Goku's transformation does he actually make any real comment about it.

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

That happened with the kids in their base form though. They were only up there with the adults as Super Saiyans and they were not by any means equal. Also we know that Goku was stronger than Vegeta at the start of the Buu arc. Vegeta required the Majin boost to catch up with Goku. And Vegeta was above Gohan. So as SSJs Goku>Vegeta>Gohan>Goten/Trunks. Anyway here is an example of how it works:

Considering that the multiplier is static, if the boys were that close to the adults in their Ssj forms, then they would be proportionally close to the adults in their base forms. Besides, with all the facts given to us, while Goku is the stronger, it's not by some insane amount.

Gohan flat out states that he cannot tap into his hidden powers (aka mystic form). Also are you suggesting that a Gohan with a higher base than the start of the Buu arc can’t maintain SSJ1 and cannot even go SSJ2 while a weaker Gohan can? Doesn't make any sense, does it? Also in the anime continuity (and Super belongs in the anime continuity by the way) Ultimate Gohan is certainly not drastically above SSJ3 Goku (in fact they are on par even by manga-only material but anyway this is off-topic).

Except that they weren't hidden anymore once Rou Kaioushin brought out his full strength again. All his hidden power was unlocked for him by Rou Kaioushin's power up, but thanks to his slacking off over the years, his power plummeted back down from where it was before, making the Ssj transformation actually useful for combat purposes. Besides, even come the Buu Saga, when it came to battle, he had a hard time bringing himself to transform to Ssj2 (which is why he didn't when it came to fighting Dabra or trying to fight Fat Buu), so that just means it's more of the same for him in terms of not being able to (for some reason) for combat purposes after the Cell Games.

And Super doesn't exist in the anime's continuity any more than the manga's, given Freeza's mass contradiction of how Hell is depicted in the Z anime, for example. Besides, manga-only material has Gohan so far above Goku it's not even funny, but as you said, that's off topic.

[Speedster]

Gohan flat out states that he cannot tap into his hidden powers (aka mystic form). Also are you suggesting that a Gohan with a higher base than the start of the Buu arc can’t maintain SSJ1 and cannot even go SSJ2 while a weaker Gohan can? Doesn't make any sense, does it? Also in the anime continuity (and Super belongs in the anime continuity by the way) Ultimate Gohan is certainly not drastically above SSJ3 Goku (in fact they are on par even by manga-only material but anyway this is off-topic).

Except that they weren't hidden anymore once Rou Kaioushin brought out his full strength again. All his hidden power was unlocked for him by Rou Kaioushin's power up, but thanks to his slacking off over the years, his power plummeted back down from where it was before, making the Ssj transformation actually useful for combat purposes.

So now you agree that Gohan lost all of his mystic form power and that his base reverted back to what it used to be at the start of the Buu arc at the very best. If you truly believe that was the case it means that agree with me that base Gohan (pre-mystic) was stronger than Piccolo.

For the record, however, you originally said that base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo because he retained *some* of his mystic powers. Which is false as Gohan said that he cannot tap into them anymore. But let's pretend for a second that Gohan did retain some of his mystic powers. You also supported that pre-mystic base Gohan is weaker than Piccolo. Therefore you suggested that Gohan's base in RoF was stronger than it was at the start of the Buu arc (pre mystic). And I responded to you with a very logical question: How can a stronger Gohan not be able to sustain SSJ1 in RoF while a weaker Gohan (according to your logic) at the start of the Buu arc could transform into SSJ1 effortlessly (and he was able to go SSJ2 too)? I was really looking forward for an answer to this question but I guess you realised that you couldn't provide any so you decided to agree that base Gohan at the start of the Buu arc is stronger than Piccolo. And since Piccolo was stronger than Freeza it follows that base Saiyans are stronger than Namek saga Freeza. Glad that after 12 pages you eventually agree!

[Darkprince410]

So now you agree that Gohan lost all of his mystic form power and that his base reverted back to what it used to be at the start of the Buu arc at the very best. If you truly believe that was the case it means that agree with me that base Gohan (pre-mystic) was stronger than Piccolo.

No, that's not what I said. I said that his strength plummeted from where it was before, i.e. when he had his Rou Kaioushin power-up. His hidden potential was completely released (with more strength tacked on) thanks to Rou Kaioushin's power-up, so it was no longer hidden power. However, due to his lack of training in the years following the power-up, his lack of training re-locked some of that hidden power away, making his base weaker than it was at the full extent of the power-up, but still considerably higher than what it was before he got the power-up to begin with.

I'm not using these numbers as any direct representation of how strong I think Gohan is in his different forms, just to give you a quick visual representation of what I'm meaning.

Gohan base (Early Buu): 1

Gohan base (Rou Kaioushin power-up): 1,000

Gohan base (RoF era): 50

His base strength is still considerably higher than what it was before the power-up, but he's still lost a considerable amount of strength from when he had the full capacity of that power-up.

How can a stronger Gohan not be able to sustain SSJ1 in RoF while a weaker Gohan (according to your logic) at the start of the Buu arc could transform into SSJ1 effortlessly (and he was able to go SSJ2 too)?

Who knows why? Maybe it has something to do with the fact that his base is so much higher than it was before that he doesn't think he can handle the combination of his higher base with the Ssj transformation like he used to. Given how weak we've seen Super Saiya-jin in the past, if you're trying to say that Gohan's difficulty in handling the Ssj transformation is because he's become vastly weaker than his early Buu-era self, then that'd mean he'd have to be even weaker than Freeza Saga era Goku or something. As for Ssj2, as we saw during the Buu Saga, he can't bring himself to use it in combat situations, as he couldn't use it against Dabra or against Fat Buu, so I don't see the relevancy there.

So, to reasonably explain Gohan's uncertainty in being able to maintain Ssj with his body in the state it was in, we have to go with one of two explanations:

My explanation - His base form is vastly stronger than it was during the early Buu Saga, thanks to him still retaining some amount of the Rou Kaioushin power-up (though he's lost a good deal of that due to lack of training), and he's uncertain that he can maintain the form with how much power it'd release as a result.

Your explanation - Gohan's power has to have dipped below Freeza era Goku, seeing as how he was able to maintain the form for extended periods of time without any sign of difficulty. If difficulty in maintaining it is related to how weak he is, then obviously he's the weakest Super Saiya-jin we've seen, which in turn would make Piccolo vastly weaker than he was shown before, despite the fact that Toriyama's established that he constantly trains.

[apex_pretador]

WHAT? SS is only a 5x boost? then why just don't use KK? Goku could use KK x10 without strain, so why didn't he use that? He could also use KK x20 with little strain. If goku didn't use it, that proves that SS is a boost not less than 20x.

The Kaioken power up inconsistency.
The 50x multiplier only comes as a derivative of KKx20 Goku=50% Freeza and the presumption that KKx20 multiplies your power level by 20x. But in all likelihood Kaio-Ken is NOT a power level multiplier from the Android arc onwards. And most probably this dates back to the Freeza arc too. And here is why:

A 90K Goku said he could do a KKx10 without a problem. Yet a 3M Goku could only do 20x? How is this? An 11-fold increase in base (~8K to ~90K) resulted going from KKx4 to KKx10 (i.e. 2.5x increase in KK multiplier), yet a 33-fold one (90K to 3M) only resulted going from KKx10 to KKx20 (i.e. 2x increase in KK multiplier) and even that with difficulty? One would expect Goku to be able to use KKx75 against Freeza if that whole KK power up was following any consistent rules. It follows then that this this whole excuse of KK putting strain in his body is inconsistent with the Kaioken multipliers and his base power level increases in overcoming the KK limitations. So why do you expect the Kaio-ken multiplier to still multiply Goku’s base power level by the same amount? And why he couldn't do KKx100 by the Cell arc when even according to your lowballing base power levels he increased his base power level by a further 5x since the Freeza arc? A Kaiokenx100 would be as strong as SSJ2 after all. See the issue with the Kaioken?

Nothing proves that KK is directly proportional to PL. Manga flat-out says KK is a multiplier. But your assumption >>> manga?

Why the SSJ multiplier is only 4-5x instead of 50x
Clearly past the Freeza arc the base form of Goku both in the canon Buu arc and in the entire animated franchise (movies and fillers included) is not portrayed as weaker than Piccolo. And certainly their foes are not holding back to their 1% for them to be fought in base. It makes far more sense the base to be 10x or 12.5x stronger than what people like you give it credit for and the SSJ1 to appear as a 5x or 4x multiplier. The total result as to where SSJ Goku stands is the same and works perfectly fine.

Movies >>> manga? Movies are canon ? ANY movie including broly movie , super 13 movie shows piccolo < base goku? Piccolo knows that he can't even touch base saiyans who haven't gotten even 2x strong , and were comparable to him in SS form at cell games? Still he participates?

Another thing is the new material we see in Dragonball Super.
1. Base Gohan> Piccolo. A slacked off Gohan that could not even go SSJ2 anymore so definitely weaker than the start of the Buu arc.

Even though this gohan retains his mystic power-up ?

2. Saiyan Beyond God Goku/Vegeta (base forms) are not 50x weaker than their SSJ Blue forms. And that because the Base Saiyan Beyond God level they reached is above what raged SSJ2 Vegeta was against Beerus (against whom Beerus used 10% of his power). One would expect that this Saiyan beyond God is somewhere 15-20% of Beerus and then by turning SSJ they become SSJ with Blue hair. SSJ Blue needs to be around 75%-80% of Beerus (we know that they are stronger than SSJG Goku in BoGs but still considerably weaker than Beerus). Anyway from 15-20% of Beerus to 75-80% is a 4-5x "multiplier".

Raged vegeta is nowhere near 10% (or even 1% beerus)
It was stated by goku that SS3 vegetto will fail vs beerus (who was about 1%)
And what says that SSB isn't 100x multiplier?

Why the SSJ is a boost that appears as 4-5x multiplier
This 4-5x multiplier is not a literal multiplication of your base power level. It just appears to be such a multiplier. SSJ is most likely a boost which is added to your base power level. For example going back to the Freeza/Android arc even if you still want to maintain that KKx20 increased Goku’s power level by 20x then SSJ was simply a big boost (equal to 49x the base) which when added to Goku’s base the end result appeared as being a 50-fold increase. But with Goku’s training his base increased so this addition ended up corresponding to a 4-5x increase.

If SS was 4-5x boost, then why didn't goku use KK , which is flat-out multiplier?

In RoSaT Goku trained to increase his base but also trained to unlock a bigger SSJ boost. That was why SSJ was considered to have a barrier/limit. There wouldn't be such references to SSJ if SSJ was directly linked with the base as a static 50x multiplier. There would be references that the base is capped. But, no, it was the SSJ boost that we are told it was capped. And think about it. If that wasn't the case you would train your base and experience a 50 fold increase as a Super Saiyan. Goku must have been a huge moron then if he didn't do that in his preparation for the Androids and instead for no reason trained his SSJ and gain 50x smaller increases. On top of that it makes ZERO sense for Piccolo to out-gain Goku in increases (and in such a spectacular fashion too) given that he started from a lower power level than Goku and that later as Kamiccolo in RoSaT was outgained by Vegeta (and Goku even further).

It doesn't makes sense that piccolo is always the one who makes the biggest gains in timeskips or training? ALWAYS.
It doesn't make sense that you aren't going to accept what I proved that piccolo is about 60-70% of the SS power? It doesn't make sense that vegeta outgained goku in timeskip? I think it makes more sense than your baseless assumptions.
As for multiplier , it makes LESS THAN ZERO sense to decrease it. So, if anything, they INCREASED it to get a bigger SS boost.

Oh and here is my PL list which fits everything in manga: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... start=6753

What makes much more sense is that SSJ boosts (after experiencing the very first one) are unlocked for the first time when they reach a certain base power level or something. Goku kept rising his base and kept unlocking SSJ boosts in such a way that the SSJ1 power up appears to be a 4-5x multiplier of his base from the Android arc onwards.

Even though everything indicates that his base didn't rise as much.


Why is frieza > base saiyans

1. Kaioshin said "I can kill freeza in one blow " and goku is impressed. Even vegeta says nothing.
2. Piccolo says he can't fight kaioshin , and everyone is shocked.
3. Kaioshin paralyzes SS2 gohan ( we know that this thing doesn;t work on someone much stronger than you )
4. Kaioshin does much better than SS2 gohan vs fat buu
5. Kaioshin states that he's surpassed by mortals when goku turns SS2
6. Piccolo stepping forward to fight cell level opponent
7. Pui-pui thinks 10x gravity is a big deal (nappa level or raditz level)
8. SS kids still at a disadvantage vs #18
9. Piccolo implied to be stronger than post rosat SS trunks in buu
10. Beerus says in BoG that freeza > base goku
11. Beerus AGAIN says in DBS that freeza > base goku
12. Goku never opposes him or corrects him like " hey I can" even when he wantedto show off.
13. SS trunks / goten << piccolo confirmed in last episode of super.
14. SS is over 20x boost , hence goku dosen't use KK instead. So there is plenty of room for goku to become 20x stronger but not 30x in all these years.
15. Krillin says to post god goku : "We have NOW a huge gap between us"

[Speedster]

So, to reasonably explain Gohan's uncertainty in being able to maintain Ssj with his body in the state it was in, we have to go with one of two explanations:

My explanation - His base form is vastly stronger than it was during the early Buu Saga, thanks to him still retaining some amount of the Rou Kaioushin power-up (though he's lost a good deal of that due to lack of training), and he's uncertain that he can maintain the form with how much power it'd release as a result.

That doesn’t make any sense though, does it? What you try to suggest is like saying that Goku after training in the spaceship with 100x gravity and increasing his base by 11 times would be uncertain whether he can do Kaio-kenx4 which he could do with a much lower base power level.

Anyway here is what Gohan says. “Problem is that my current body can't maintain this form for long”. So there you have it his body was weaker than the start of the Buu arc where he could maintain that form effortlessly and for long. If his base was stronger than the start of the Buu arc then he would have no problem maintaining it.

Your explanation -Gohan's power has to have dipped below Freeza era Goku, seeing as how he was able to maintain the form for extended periods of time without any sign of difficulty. If difficulty in maintaining it is related to how weak he is, then obviously he's the weakest Super Saiya-jin we've seen, which in turn would make Piccolo vastly weaker than he was shown before, despite the fact that Toriyama's established that he constantly trains.

My explanation was already given and is nothing like you suggest. Click spoiler below to read it.

Spoiler:

SSJ boosts are unlocked for the first time probably when certain base power levels are reached. Once you have unlocked them you have access to them. When Gohan transformed into SSJ for first time in RoSaT he unlocked a boost A. As an early SSJ1 he was baseA +boostA. Then with training he unlocked further boosts while also increased his base. Finally his base became base B and the boost became boost B. By RoF Gohan slacked down and his base became a fraction of base b (still above base A). He still had access to boost B though. However to add boost B without strain your base needs to base B or higher (or at least somewhere close). By trying to add this big boost B to his weak base was uncertain for how long his body could handle the strain.

Gohan’s normal base
Start of training in the RoSaT in Cell arc=A
Cell games=7A
Gohan’s base start of Buu arc=5A
Gohan’s base RoF=3A

Gohan's SSJ1 boosts:
First ever SSJ1 boost in RosaT=9A
Total SSJ1 boost by the Cell games=28A

Gohan as a Super Saiyan:
SSJ Gohan (first transformation in RoSaT)=1A+9A=10A
SSJ Gohan (Cell games)=7A+28A=35A
SSJ Gohan’s (start of Buu arc)=5A+25A=30A
SSJ Gohan (RoF)=3A+18A=21A

[Hugo Boss]

I think Gohan simply doesn't have stamina to sustain Super Saiyan for long, it doesn't have to mean more than that. He may have the same power that he had when transforming, a lot higher or a lot lower. None of those three instances are clear.

[MisterGuyMan]

So I wanted to look up Beers' exact wording before I emphasized this point. Here's the exact statement from the translation I watched:

Beers doesn't think Goku would be able to beat Freeza as he sees Goku currently. The argument is that if Goku doesn't contradict him then the statement must be true. Let's put aside for the moment the argument of whether Goku was suppressed or not. Can Goku actually beat Frieza as he is currently?

Yes he can:

So the statement is wrong either way and Goku didn't correct him. The logic of just arguing that anything that Goku doesn't correct must be false is now factually disproven. Even on a logical level it's a logical fallacy that shifts the burden of proof. Even beyond that the statement is just wrong anyway whether or not Goku corrected it.

[Hitiro]

So I wanted to look up Beers' exact wording before I emphasized this point. Here's the exact statement from the translation I watched:
--Snip Image--
Beers doesn't think Goku would be able to beat Freeza as he sees Goku currently. The argument is that if Goku doesn't contradict him then the statement must be true. Let's put aside for the moment the argument of whether Goku was suppressed or not. Can Goku actually beat Freeza as he is currently?

Yes he can:
--Snip Image--
So the statement is wrong either way and Goku didn't correct him. The logic of just arguing that anything that Goku doesn't correct must be false is now factually disproven. Even on a logical level it's a logical fallacy that shifts the burden of proof. Even beyond that the statement is just wrong anyway whether or not Goku corrected it.

What have you proved here exactly? That Goku can cut Boohan with a Kienzan? You realise that the Kienzan has been shown to injure opponents vastly stronger than the user. Right? Look at Kuririn. Kuririn cut Freeza's tail off and Freeza has a battle power of 1 million at that point. Kuririn had only just reached 10,000. So there is already a 100x disparity between him and Freeza. The Kikoho(Tri Beam) has also demonstrated to be vastly stronger than other techniques. To the point that it could restrain Semi-Perfect Cell. Tenshinhan is thousands of times weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell. So no, the burden of proof is on you. Because you've already been told that if a suppressed character has received lines about them that the story will explain if they are suppressed. Look at Kaboom's examples. Not once have we been given a statement which hasn't been later clarified if it has been wrong. The "burden of proof" is on you to prove that this statement is an exception to the rule which has been vastly established.

Unless you're trying to tell me that just because Goku can use the Kienzan he can beat Freeza? Then we may as well say that anybody can beat Freeza under the right circumstance if they have a Kienzan. The reason this statement is here is because it is a fact Akira Toriyama and the staff wanted to convey to us. It doesn't need any unnecessary assumptions like "He must be suppressed." Like I and the others have said countless times, if this line serves no purpose then the line doesn't need to be there. The fact that the line is there points to it having some relevant information about Goku that the fans would like to know. I've certainly assumed that Goku and the others were below Freeza for a long time before this line given the Genki Dama and other things. This line just backs it up further. I mean the only way you can say this line is wrong is to make an assumption. In comparison we can say this line is right because the anime and movie both say it. As far as anyone is concerned in this thread we have more of a basis for being right than you do. Given we actually have something tangible to provide as evidence. If I want to make assumptions then Kuririn could beat Beerus. Because you know, Kuririn would just need to sneak up and Kienzan him from behind or wait till Beerus falls asleep and then kill him. Heck. I can just assume Sorbet can beat Goku because he can just ring beam him through the heart while Goku is suppressed. So yeah. I may as well say Sorbet > Goku and Kuririn > Beerus. I mean if we take filler SSJ Goku in the Cell Games arc was hurt by a rock Kuririn hit him with. So the Rock > SSJ Goku too.

[buutenks]

Well problem with that is:

1.its a kienzan,very very sharp ^^

2.Buu doesnt have normal durability.

I see no reason why base saiyans cant be below 100% freeza.

Both statements were made in the movie and the anime,meaning,its a fact.This is how it is now,base saiyans are below 100% freeza.

[Draconic]

Buu has been shown to be pierced by regular bullets, so Goku cutting trough him with a Kienzan doesn't prove much. Also, even if base Goku would cut Freeza in half with one, Freeza could still have enough power to do the job. If cutting Freeza in half would also cut his power in half, he would still be at 50%. This means that Goku in base would still have to use Kaioken. Goku probably is no longer 3 million, like he was on Namek. He is probably in the 10 million range, so he wouldn't have to use a Kaioken x20 like on Namek, but he would still have to use it, which means he isn't really in his base form anymore.

On Namek Freeza was still shown to be able to fly after being cut in half and after having a one-sided battle with Super Saiyan Goku, so him being cut in half at full strength wouldn't really do too much to him.

So, if you believe that Kaioken Goku is still base Goku (which really isn't, since Kaioken multiplies his base power), then yes, Goku could probably manage something to win. However, without it, Goku is toast.

[Darkprince410]

My explanation was already given and is nothing like you suggest. Click spoiler below to read it.

Spoiler:

SSJ boosts are unlocked for the first time probably when certain base power levels are reached. Once you have unlocked them you have access to them. When Gohan transformed into SSJ for first time in RoSaT he unlocked a boost A. As an early SSJ1 he was baseA +boostA. Then with training he unlocked further boosts while also increased his base. Finally his base became base B and the boost became boost B. By RoF Gohan slacked down and his base became a fraction of base b (still above base A). He still had access to boost B though. However to add boost B without strain your base needs to base B or higher (or at least somewhere close). By trying to add this big boost B to his weak base was uncertain for how long his body could handle the strain.

Gohan’s normal base
Start of training in the RoSaT in Cell arc=A
Cell games=7A
Gohan’s base start of Buu arc=5A
Gohan’s base RoF=3A

Gohan's SSJ1 boosts:
First ever SSJ1 boost in RosaT=9A
Total SSJ1 boost by the Cell games=28A

Gohan as a Super Saiyan:
SSJ Gohan (first transformation in RoSaT)=1A+9A=10A
SSJ Gohan (Cell games)=7A+28A=35A
SSJ Gohan’s (start of Buu arc)=5A+25A=30A
SSJ Gohan (RoF)=3A+18A=21A

Given that it's a static multiplier, that doesn't make any sense at all. It's so much simpler, and makes far more sense, given everything shown, that the increases behave just like the Kaiou-ken does, except that the transformation also conditions the body to withstand the stress and strain of the increase, whereas the Kaiou-ken just increases their strength without any kind of conditioner for the body.

[Desassina]

By the way, would anyone support the idea of Kaioshin one shot killing Freeza in his Emperor form? (1st form, the one the universe knew). We would have to make a condition that only Beerus knew Freeza's true form though. Not even 100% of it, because he wasn't used to it.

[Hugo Boss]

Some things in the Majin Boo arc can be interpreted to imply to the contrary, but are far less direct and can easily be explained in other ways if seen as an issue.

What about Base Goku doing so well against Yakon? Bobbidi told him to spare Kaioshin's life and Kaioshin himself suggested all to fight at the same time against him. And Kaioshin can suposedly defeat Freeza easily. Could it be that Kaioshin and Bobbidi were both completely off about Yakon's power? Maybe Goku and Gohan could defeat him together without Super Saiyan.

By the way, would anyone support the idea of Kaioshin one shot killing Freeza in his Emperor form? (1st form, the one the universe knew). We would have to make a condition that only Beerus knew Freeza's true form though. Not even 100% of it, because he wasn't used to it.

The problem is that they just refer to him as Freeza, not being clear about which form they have in mind. Personally, these comparisons seems like they are comparing people with the realm of power Freeza represents, since there isn't too much people in the universe that can challenge Freeza even in his first form.

[Darkprince410]

Some things in the Majin Boo arc can be interpreted to imply to the contrary, but are far less direct and can easily be explained in other ways if seen as an issue.

What about Base Goku doing so well against Yakon? Bobbidi told him to spare Kaioshin's life and Kaioshin himself suggested all to fight at the same time against him. And Kaioshin can suposedly defeat Freeza easily. Could it be that Kaioshin and Bobbidi were both completely off about Yakon's power? Maybe Goku and Gohan could defeat him together without Super Saiyan.

Kaioushin repeatedly showed that he couldn't judge Babi-di's men well at all, in terms of strength, though there's a fair amount of evidence that suggests that Babi-di's men didn't have a ki that could be sensed in any real way. It was indicated that Spopovitch didn't have any life that could be sensed from him, Goku relied on air current changes to determine where Yakon was when in the Realm of Darkness, and Goku had to use Dabra's movements and actions to estimate his strength.

As such, it's possible, given that information, that Kaioushin and the others couldn't get any kind of read on Babi-di's men, and therefore Kaioushin's fears about their strength was solely based on reputation that Babi-di "recruits" only the strongest fighters, as opposed to their actual strength.