Gogeta VS Vegito (read the OP)

[Gogetto]

One isn't without knowing Old Kai's statement from the manga. However :

http://jumpmatome2ch.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-6918.html

An interresting debate on Jumpmatome2ch brought to us à little picture taken from a Weekly Shōnen Jump, in which Akira Toriyama provided a little comment that catch attention from everyone :

 心も一つにするフュージョンはパワーを最大阪までひきだせるのだ!!
なので３０分内の短期決戦ならゴジータ、長期戦ならベジットが勝つはずだぞ!!

= Kokoro mo Hitotsu ni suru Fyūjon wa Pawā wo Saidaiban made Hikidaseru no da!!
Nano de 30 Pun Nai no Tanki Kessen nara Gojīta, Chōki-sen nara Bejitto ga Katsu hazu da zo!!
= By also merging the two spirits, the fusion has the power to its fullest. Thus, Gogeta would win a short battle, which last less than 30 minutes, while Vegito would win a longer battle.

So apparently, AT pretty much said that Gogeta was stronger than Vegetto, dismissing the fact that Old Kai stated that the potaras were stronger than the fusion dance. Or did he referred to another effect of the fusion after all ?

Well, this is how you manage to fuel a debate which could have ended from the beginning, thanks to Old Kai's statements.

Nice job, Toriyama !

I've actually translated this link :

http://www.dragonball-ultimate.com/info ... nd-vegetto

[dbgtFO]

Yes, we have already discussed that image before on this message board. Unfortunately neither on here has been able to confirm from which Weekly Jump magazine it originated in, if it's actually legit in the first place.

[Darkprince410]

Here was Herms' breakdown of the particular image when it came up several months ago, where he comments that he's not aware of such an entry being released from anything official, and a number of elements of the image being suspicious and typical of what one might expect from a faked article.

[Pocket-God]

Eh, I've always gone with Gogeta > Vegito anyway so it doesn't matter to me if this is fake or not :V

[Darkprince410]

Eh, I've always gone with Gogeta > Vegito anyway so it doesn't matter to me if this is fake or not :V

Given what we know of where Gotenks sat during the Buu Saga, and that Gogeta shouldn't be that far above him when it came to respective forms (given how close the boys were to the adults), the gap that would exist between Vegetto and Gogeta would still be enormous. Gogeta would still need at least Ssj2 (though likely Ssj3) in order to be able to handle regular Evil Buu, while Vegetto was able to effortlessly throttle and toy around with the far stronger Gohan Buu while only in his regular Ssj form.

[Desassina]

Eh, I've always gone with Gogeta > Vegito anyway so it doesn't matter to me if this is fake or not :V

Not necessarily true, man. Look, Trunks was close to Vegeta, who was stronger than Gohan, whom Goten was close to. However, fusion requires them to match, so they'll both be at Goten's level. After the RoSaT, their differences could have been put aside, but they were still lower than Piccolo inside of Super Buu. Since Gohan was inside of Super Buu with all of his power drawn out at base (or Ultimate power), there's no reason to consider that Goten and Trunks' full power wasn't being used as well. What this means is that Piccolo > Base Goten and Trunks, Base Goku and Vegeta > Piccolo, and that there is a gap to consider between them. A potara fusion between Goku and Vegeta resulted in Vegetto, who beats any form of Buu as a SSJ, while Gotenks only matches Super Buu as a SSJ3. SSJ Gogeta, as seen in Movie 12, was stronger than SSJ3 Goku by a considerable amount, and SSJ3 Goku wouldn't dare touch Super Buu, so the discussion is pretty much left open as to what you consider to be the truth:

- SSJ Vegetto > SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku?
- SSJ Vegetto > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ Gogeta > SSJ3 Goku?

It's your choice.

[Pocket-God]

Why cant' everyone just go with Gogeta and Vegito have the same power level, it would be so much easier.

But really if you think about it i doubt Goten and Trunks were anywhere near Vegeta and Goku, i mean in the tournament Goten and Trunks together as Super Saiyans couldn't really do much to 18, where as Vegeta or Goku as super saiyans would one-shot her.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But really if you think about it i doubt Goten and Trunks were anywhere near Vegeta and Goku, i mean in the tournament Goten and Trunks together as Super Saiyans couldn't really do much to 18, where as Vegeta or Goku as super saiyans would one-shot her.

Trunks' suppressed Chi blast made #18 worry for her life, so I don't see where you are getting that they couldn't do much to #18 from.

[Xeztin]

I've seen that exact image somewhere, even if it did have some legit source, it could be a image that's been recycled a million times so my seeing it before might not mean much.

[Helios518]

I always used the idea that Gogeta = Vegetto in the same form and time but Vegetto has a better chance at winning in a fight between them.The reason why I see Gogeta = Vegetto instead of him close to Gotenks is because Goku and Vegeta are rivals and get a rival boost unlike Goten and Trunks.

[apex_pretador]

Don't we already have a thread for vegetto vs gogeta?

[Gogetto]

It turns out that the whole Gogeta > Vegetto was a montage of the true source (which says something else).
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/201 ... emr07z.jpg

Vegeto's supporters can safely have Vegito > Gogeta, and Gogeta's supporters...well, sorry for breaking your dreams.

[dbgtFO]

Where did you find this?
What magazine at what date??

Not surprised the text and the Toriyama icon wasn't legit.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegetto > Gogeta was stated in manga and nothing has contradicted it, and I'm sticking by it.

[Khin]

I'll take the filler that was not cutted out in DB Kai as ''canon'' to the manga since no filler in Kai condradicts the manga so even SSJ3 Gogeta < Base Vegetto.

[dbgtFO]

since no filler in Kai condradicts the manga

Freeza in Hell begs to differ.

[Khin]

Freeza in Hell begs to differ.

Oh Sh*t totally forget about that so lets say fillers in Kai that doesnt contradict the manga/BOG/ROF then.

[Kuririn Fan]

Yes, Gogeta fans, Gogeta has a cool vest and outfit, but doesn't make him stronger than Vegetto.

[Khin]

Yes, Gogeta fans, Gogeta has a cool vest and outfit, but doesn't make him stronger than Vegetto.

Well in my opinion,Vegetto have cooler outfit that Gogeta.

[Tectorman]

On-Topic: Buuhan gave Goku a few seconds to find someone to fuse with before Vegeta showed up and Goku teleported away. So when he found Goku and Vegeta barely any time later, he should still have been expecting the two to fuse. Not knowing of any difference between Fusion by dancing and this new Earring Fusion, Buuhan's expectation of this hypothetical Gogeta would be based on that (and based on his experience and the knowledge of the boys and Piccolo inside him, he should know how strong the Dance Fusion is). By this point, he should also be expecting SSJ at least, if not SSJ2 or even SSJ3. And his reaction to all that is a lack of concern. SSJ Vegetto, on the other hand, outright dominates him (and if you include the anime, it's even worse).

So I hold Vegetto >>> Gogeta.

Off-Topic: And now I fail a Will saving throw.

But really if you think about it i doubt Goten and Trunks were anywhere near Vegeta and Goku, i mean in the tournament Goten and Trunks together as Super Saiyans couldn't really do much to 18, where as Vegeta or Goku as super saiyans would one-shot her.

Trunks' suppressed Chi blast made #18 worry for her life, so I don't see where you are getting that they couldn't do much to #18 from.

I agree and disagree.

Beerus, operating at 70% of his full power, was able to straight-up withstand the Kamehameha of God-Remnant SSJ Goku who was at the equivalent of Beerus's 60%. Android 18 needing to dodge Trunks's attack should place Trunks at above 6/7 of 18's power. Had the fight gone on (and assuming Trunks not being hampered by the Mighty Mask disguise), Trunks would have done at least better against 18 than Goku did against Beerus.

That said, back in the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta (18,000) fired a blast at Kaiox2 Goku (16,000) that Goku was not entirely successful at dodging. 18, on the other hand, did successfully dodge Trunks's attack, which places Trunks at less than 9/8 of 18's power.

"But Goten told him to not use full power, so he could be way, way, way stronger than 18."

Let's suppose that, for whatever reason, Goku takes an energy blast, suppresses the heck out of it, and then shoots it at someone like Mr. Satan. Could Mr. Satan survive something like that? Well, as long as Goku's suppressing it enough, sure. He's skilled enough that he could hold back to the point of his blast not killing Mr. Satan. Nothing unusual here.

But would it make sense for Goku to then say "Of course this won't kill you. You're Mr. Satan"? No. Of course not. The bulk of the work (bulk? Heck, all of it) being done to ensure Mr. Satan's survival is due to Goku suppressing his energy blast, and Mr. Satan being Mr. Satan is immaterial to the conversation, and need not even be mentioned, lest the reader be misled into thinking that Mr. Satan being Mr. Satan is actually some kind of contributing factor when it really isn't.

And that's what we have with Trunks deciding to go with an energy blast while fighting 18. Before Goten tells him not to use full power, he makes the confident assertion that his blast won't kill 18 because of who and what she is. The implication there is that Android 18 being Android 18 is already sufficient for her to not get killed.

I mean, when I read that scene, the following is not my take-away.

Trunks: "It's not going to kill her. That's Android 18."

Goten: "Make sure not to use full power."

Trunks: "Of course, I'm also going to suppress my power. In fact, I'm way, way, way suppressing my power, which is really the thing that's going to keep her alive, so the fact that that's Android 18 doesn't actually matter, and I don't even know why I brought it up in the first place."

That's not how I read that scene.

For Trunks to assert 18's survival because of who she is the way he did, it has to have meaning. Which means that Android 18 being as powerful as she is is what's doing most of the work of keeping her alive. Which I take to mean that when Trunks says he's not using full power, we're looking at more like 85%, 80%, maybe 75%. However much it is, it still puts Trunks approximate to 18.

So I agree with Pocket-God's overall point here that the boys are closer to 18's level than their father's level. Goku and Vegeta should easily be able to one-shot 18, while Trunks would only be marginally stronger than her if even that.

...

Also, I never read that scene as 18 being in fear for her own life due to that energy blast. Earlier that day, Goten showed himself to have more enthusiasm than skill with regards to energy blasts as he carelessly blasted the top of one of the arena buildings. Had it been a different building, young little seven-year-old Goten could have been guilty of several counts of accidental manslaughter. And then, she's just seen one of the boys (I don't think she knew which of them was sitting on the other's shoulders) casually wreck the nearby ocean floor.

I read that as her being concerned about stray shots hitting innocent bystanders, up to and including her husband and her child. And considering that Trunks's missed shot is followed by the suggestion "Let's bombard her" from Goten-of-the-wrecked-building of all people, I'd say she has fair cause to be concerned about stray shots.

Afraid for their sakes? Oh, I totally buy that. Afraid for her own life? Not so much. (Of course, I do buy her being concerned she might take a serious injury, something she might not want to risk in an event as inconsequential as some tournament.)