Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

I think that would be really uncreative and I would not like the series at all if they only introduce Gods of Destruction as worthy opponents for Goku and Vegeta, when the concept of a multiverse is full of potential for incredibly strong and unique enemies. But hey, opinions.

[LightBing]

I don't think we'll follow that route. A God of Destruction only entails enough power to destroys planets and Whis acceptance. Starting with Freeza, everybody after would have the minimum requirements. I don't think we'll see anymore Gods of Destruction soon, at least during the tournament and the probable following arc in Universe 6.

Anyway, Champa called Goku and Vegeta pushovers in their base forms wearing heavy suits. I think it's fair to assume, at minimum, all of the opponents have that level of power. Which worries me, even with the suits Goku and Vegeta should be able to clean the floor with Piccolo and Mr.Boo. But would both of them be there just to be defeated in 5 minutes?
Of course, Goku and Vegeta could be pushovers only to the cream of Universe 6, which could be 2 or 3 fighters. A power up to Mr.Boo and Piccolo should be in order, right?

[Kamiccolo9]

That's not Herms' translation. That's his translation of the line from the script:

Goku: “Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.”

In the movie, you can also clearly hear the words, "Sūpā Saiya-jin Goddo", "Saiya-jin", and "Sūpā Saiya-jin" even if you don't know Japanese.

Regardless, and I do believe we've already had this discussion, going off that line alone, the clear statement is that SSGSSJ is a Super Saiyan with the power of a SSJ God. Whether that's accurate is beyond the scope of where I'm willing to take this discussion, but that is literally what the line says.

[Draconic]

Characters have been able to destroy planets since the Saiyan arc. You really do not need a character as strong as Beerus to be a God of Destruction, all you need is someone on, say, Freeza's level. Beerus was made that strong so that he could be a match for Goku, just like how Freeza was powered-up so much in F, so that he could match Goku's power. Goku and Vegeta are almost at Beerus' level, if we go by the rule that he can't be surpassed, then you'll never find any opponents for Goku and Vegeta besides other Gods of Destruction. And wouldn't it be incredibly boring if the only people Goku and Vegeta have a hard time against are Gods of Destruction?

Freeza getting so strong didn't work because he got an unexplained power boost in a short amount of time. But this is a different universe, we don't know anything about how characters train, how characters power-up, nothing at all. This is the perfect opportunity to introduce super strong characters without having to worry about the explanations that you'd normally have to give for their strength. Why take that away?

I strongly disagree with all of that. A God Of Destruction (going by it's name alone SHOULD be the most overpowered being) and this is also the reason why they had him appear after Majin Buu. A destroyer god as weak as saiyans-Frieza should be Laughable. And yeah. That's exactly what i want out of this series. Goku and Vegeta fighting of against the 12 Gods of Destruction.(and maybe that Dragon God who created the Super Dragon Balls) though we don't know much about him yet.

Any other being should be Fodder to them.

By that logic Artificial Humans should be fodder for the guy who beat the Emperor of the Universe.

[Helios518]

That's not Herms' translation. That's his translation of the line from the script:

Goku: “Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.”

In the movie, you can also clearly hear the words, "Sūpā Saiya-jin Goddo", "Saiya-jin", and "Sūpā Saiya-jin" even if you don't know Japanese.

Regardless, and I do believe we've already had this discussion, going off that line alone, the clear statement is that SSGSSJ is a Super Saiyan with the power of a SSJ God. Whether that's accurate is beyond the scope of where I'm willing to take this discussion, but that is literally what the line says.

If that's the line then they should've said Saiyan 4 times instead the 3 times it was said in the line.

[Kamiccolo9]

If that's the line then they should've said Saiyan 4 times instead the 3 times it was said in the line.

Maybe. I'm not arguing what they were going for, just spelling out what was actually said.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

This is really how it should be translated?! The "Saiyan" in the middle seems kind of unnecessary if preceeded by "who's". I guess I'm a Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God makes more sense if you want to defend a different interpretation.

In base, he is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. In Super Saiyan, he is a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. If you believe that base Goku is much weaker than SSG Goku for some reason, then of course it won't make any sense.

You have a semantic problem here. How can Base and Super Saiyan have Super Saiyan God's power at the same time? One of them should have the power of Super Saiyan God. That's why I said you need a "of" instead of a "who's".

[apex_pretador]

By that logic Artificial Humans should be fodder for the guy who beat the Emperor of the Universe.

I agree. It doesn't make sense for 2 kids in a lab to become stronger than the strongest being in the universe for like 50+ years.
(no one was stronger than freeza excluding gods and dabura, and I'll pass on monaca until we know more about him.)

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Regardless, and I do believe we've already had this discussion, going off that line alone, the clear statement is that SSGSSJ is a Super Saiyan with the power of a SSJ God. Whether that's accurate is beyond the scope of where I'm willing to take this discussion, but that is literally what the line says.

Having the power of SSG doesn't mean that you are as strong as a SSG.

Goku has the power of SSG in his base form already, there is no question about that. It is stated in BoG, Super, and even by Toriyama himself, that Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his body and made it his own. He became a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

When he becomes a Super Saiyan now, after doing training, he becomes a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, aka a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, aka Super Saiyan Blue.

You have a semantic problem here. How can Base and Super Saiyan have Super Saiyan God's power at the same time? One of them should have the power of Super Saiyan God. That's why I said you need a "of" instead of a "who's".

Because the line isn't talking about battle power, it talks about the kind of power that SSG has. Neither base/SbG nor SSB are exactly as strong as SSG, but they both have the power of SSG.

[GodVegetto91]

Characters have been able to destroy planets since the Saiyan arc. You really do not need a character as strong as Beerus to be a God of Destruction, all you need is someone on, say, Freeza's level. Beerus was made that strong so that he could be a match for Goku, just like how Freeza was powered-up so much in F, so that he could match Goku's power. Goku and Vegeta are almost at Beerus' level, if we go by the rule that he can't be surpassed, then you'll never find any opponents for Goku and Vegeta besides other Gods of Destruction. And wouldn't it be incredibly boring if the only people Goku and Vegeta have a hard time against are Gods of Destruction?

Freeza getting so strong didn't work because he got an unexplained power boost in a short amount of time. But this is a different universe, we don't know anything about how characters train, how characters power-up, nothing at all. This is the perfect opportunity to introduce super strong characters without having to worry about the explanations that you'd normally have to give for their strength. Why take that away?

I strongly disagree with all of that. A God Of Destruction (going by it's name alone SHOULD be the most overpowered being) and this is also the reason why they had him appear after Majin Buu. A destroyer god as weak as saiyans-Frieza should be Laughable. And yeah. That's exactly what i want out of this series. Goku and Vegeta fighting of against the 12 Gods of Destruction.(and maybe that Dragon God who created the Super Dragon Balls) though we don't know much about him yet.

Any other being should be Fodder to them.

By that logic Artificial Humans should be fodder for the guy who beat the Emperor of the Universe.

Uhm no on the contrary.. Both Frieza and SSJ Goku are "natural born beings" and while they are super powerful they're still naturally powerful. The Androids on the other hand were Unnaturally Powerful.. they were specifically created for the sole purpose of surpassing the limits of naturally born beings. Hence their Infinite Ki reactors and such.

[dbgtFO]

At this point in time, this is how I explain SSG and SSGSS.

Super Saiyan God - Achieved by 5 Saiyans pouring their heart into a 6th one. Gives the user Red hair, a slimmer body and God ki. The power of the Saiyan achieving SSG is determined solely by that Saiyan's original power, NOT the power of the 5 others. Though it does give the user God ki, it is not the proper way to reach that realm of power and can't be sustained consciously because of that, so it is basically a short-cut to power like that, though somewhat inferior.
In the face of an immediate threat however it's the best chance you have, as the other method would take too long to accomplish.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - Achieved by a Saiyan training rigorously in base form and eventually acquiring the capability to raise his ki without it leaking out(if that's what is meant by God ki, then this is what's required). The Saiyan eventually unlocks the new form, that by influence of the God ki, changes to blue/cyan hair, when going Super Saiyan, rather than regular gold in addition to the slim body(barring animation inconsistencies) and God ki.
Goku having absorbed the God power had it easier than Vegeta.
One could say this is the proper Super Saiyan God form, but then Vegeta achieves it just by training, unlike Goku who got SSG and absorbed its power to make the transition easier, so it makes sense to just have it be disconnected from SSG and have it be SSB.

[GodVegetto91]

At this point in time, this is how I explain SSG and SSGSS.

Super Saiyan God - Achieved by 5 Saiyans pouring their heart into a 6th one. Gives the user Red hair, a slimmer body and God ki. The power of the Saiyan achieving SSG is determined solely by that Saiyan's original power, NOT the power of the 5 others. Though it does give the user God ki, it is not the proper way to reach that realm of power and can't be sustained consciously because of that, so it is basically a short-cut to power like that, though somewhat inferior.
In the face of an immediate threat however it's the best chance you have, as the other method would take too long to accomplish.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan - Achieved by a Saiyan training rigorously in base form and eventually acquiring the capability to raise his ki without it leaking out(if that's what is meant by God ki, then this is what's required). The Saiyan eventually unlocks the new form, that by influence of the God ki, changes to blue/cyan hair, when going Super Saiyan, rather than regular gold in addition to the slim body(barring animation inconsistencies) and God ki.
Goku having absorbed the God power had it easier than Vegeta.
One could say this is the proper Super Saiyan God form, but then Vegeta achieves it just by training, unlike Goku who got SSG and absorbed its power to make the transition easier, so it makes sense to just have it be disconnected from SSG and have it be SSB.

Why couldn't they have just chosen for the only theory that makes sense at this point for Vegeta. And that is that Vegeta somehow managed to absorb some of the god ki during the ritual to make Goku a god. And thus would explain his rapid grow of strength while Training under Whis. It would explain a lot of things. And goes well in hand with Battle Of Gods where Goku said he could NEVER achieve such a level of power on his own. This was a really dumb move of them to not even bother to explain how Vegeta got so powerful, other than saying he trained with Whis for 6 months.
I thought Battle of Gods made it pretty clear that SSJ God was a level of power you could never achieve on your own. Now they seem to be disregarding that idea interely. Which is litterally the worst thing they could have done imo.

[LightBing]

Why couldn't they have just chosen for the only theory that makes sense at this point for Vegeta. And that is that Vegeta somehow managed to absorb some of the god ki during the ritual to make Goku a god. And thus would explain his rapid grow of strength while Training under Whis. It would explain a lot of things. And goes well in hand with Battle Of Gods where Goku said he could NEVER achieve such a level of power on his own. This was a really dumb move of them to not even bother to explain how Vegeta got so powerful, other than saying he trained with Whis for 6 months.
I thought Battle of Gods made it pretty clear that SSJ God was a level of power you could never achieve on your own. Now they seem to be disregarding that idea interely. Which is litterally the worst thing they could have done imo.

The idea is still there. Vegeta tried to get to that level alone and failed, he had to be trained by Whis. Alone he wouldn't be able to get there. It isn't explained in detail but what Whis teaches is some form of Ki training, even when lifting weights. It seems to be more than regular training.

[GodVegetto91]

Why couldn't they have just chosen for the only theory that makes sense at this point for Vegeta. And that is that Vegeta somehow managed to absorb some of the god ki during the ritual to make Goku a god. And thus would explain his rapid grow of strength while Training under Whis. It would explain a lot of things. And goes well in hand with Battle Of Gods where Goku said he could NEVER achieve such a level of power on his own. This was a really dumb move of them to not even bother to explain how Vegeta got so powerful, other than saying he trained with Whis for 6 months.
I thought Battle of Gods made it pretty clear that SSJ God was a level of power you could never achieve on your own. Now they seem to be disregarding that idea interely. Which is litterally the worst thing they could have done imo.

The idea is still there. Vegeta tried to get to that level alone and failed, he had to be trained by Whis. Alone he wouldn't be able to get there. It isn't explained in detail but what Whis teaches is some form of Ki training, even when lifting weights. It seems to be more than regular training.

And even that wasn't properly explained.
We've had things like learning to control your ki as early as dragon ball.. If it somehow manages to bring you to universe pulping god power (even in Base) just isn't an acceptable explanation. I'm willing to accept Vegeta achieving such a level of power without the ritual if they actually bothered to explain it in detail. Them saying Vegeta achieving god Goku level without any other explanation then he trained with Whis for 6 months isn't going to cut it for me.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Whis has explained his method. They had to control their ki in a way it doesn't burst out, so that they can't be sensed even when powered-up, like the Gods do. Vegeta must have praticed that while doing his usual stuff, lifting tons, walking with tons in his arms.. not to mention surviving Beerus for six months.

If you think about it, Whis can restore him as new, that should provide a good amount of near-death power-ups. Remember the oracle fish describing Whis training as nearly suicide without Super Saiyan.

[Helios518]

I think Whis has explained his method. They had to control their ki in a way it doesn't burst out, so that they can't be sensed even when powered-up, like the Gods do. Vegeta must have practiced that while doing his usual stuff and lifting tons.

But SSJG Goku wasn't getting sensed by anyone that wasn't a god and he didn't know about this technique.

[Hugo Boss]

That happened because Super Saiyan God has godly ki. Once Super Saiyan God wore off, everyone could sense Goku. That's natural, no one taught him how to power-up like that in his regular body.

[Helios518]

That happened because Super Saiyan God has godly ki. Once Super Saiyan God wore off, everyone could sense Goku. That's natural, no one taught him how to power-up like that in his regular body.

I know SSJG has god ki but I'm saying what's the technique for if you could only get sensed by a handful of gods in universe 6 and 7?

[Hugo Boss]

I guess I could call it godly ki control. I don't think there is a name for such technique. Some beings just happen to have godly ki while others become able to control it through training.

[Noah]

It is pathetic that Vegeta achieved SSGSS through training, I'll take BoG/RoF movies over the stupid DBS explanation, for me it's more plausible that Vegeta become a SSJG by the ritual and then trained with Whis