Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Looks like Kaio said something like "He turned into a Super Saiyan God without the help of the other Saiyans", at least in a speedsub so take it with a grain of salt. This hints that one can become an SSG without the ritual, and the ritual is merely one method of achieving it.

[ZombieVito]

So it appears base Goku and Freeza are evenly matched after all.

[Bullza]

Yeah Kaio's comment makes it sound like what was said in the Funi dub, where it's just SSJG but now Goku is able to turn into it on it's own. It appears to be stronger and I'd guess that was due to Goku's training but as for why it looks different who knows.

I guess we'll never know.

[ekrolo2]

Nowhere is it said you can only become SSB, after getting SSJG. SSB appears to simply be a regular SSJ, infused with God Ki. During training, Whis told the Oracle Fish, how Goku and Vegeta just reached a level where they can feel the ki of the Gods. It's fair to assume, the requirement for God ki is only a reaching a certain level of power, combined with some of that ki control.
The power gain being small in comparison with the regular SSJ, is that Base already holds most of the potential power. However, there will always some that can only be accessed by going SSJ/SSB.
Why the infusion with God Ki? I don't know. Maybe it has advantages that haven't yet been stated.

Regarding Mutated SSJ2, it's not that different from SSJ3. A powerful form with big drawbacks. In this case it only functions as a burst. Vegeta triggered it that instant by rage.

That really undermines the whole God Ki thing though. If its not a completely different type of energy unique to a select few, then why even have it exist at all if you can just get it by becoming really strong? Why would just becoming really strong alter your power to something else entirely. I mean, we know its a different type of energy since Gods can't be sensed. Was it just overhyped BS or is this a case of Super (probably) being just stupid with powers?

As for Rageta, his rage outs never did anything for him so unless him believing in the heart of the cards and raging out is the answer to mutating SSJ2, I can't really buy that as a good explanation.

[Helios518]

Why do people have SSJ Gohan (RoF) around his Ultimate form?

[Hugo Boss]

I think Whis has explained his method. They had to control their ki in a way it doesn't burst out, so that they can't be sensed even when powered-up, like the Gods do. Vegeta must have praticed that while doing his usual stuff, lifting tons, walking with tons in his arms.. not to mention surviving Beerus for six months.

If you think about it, Whis can restore him as new, that should provide a good amount of near-death power-ups. Remember the oracle fish describing Whis training as nearly suicide without Super Saiyan.

Your theory doesn't make any sense at all. it's a very easy technique that can be learned by ANYONE. you don't have to be a god for it.(Goku and Vegeta learned it in an instant) and the reason Goku and Vegeta had never done it before was because it never crossed their minds to for some reason. also both God Goku and Beerus had visible aura's. learning to control your ki that way only gives you the advantage to surprise your opponent later on.(since he couldn't sense you increased your attacks)
that's all. the only benefit. it doesn't give you any god power at all. it's just raising your ki inside your body. so your opponent won't sense it.

You just elaborated further on my point. Their training was focused on that kind of ki control, specially inside Whis' staff, they can't move unless they learn how to do it. So, you can imagine in what it would result after watching Episode 24. Also, SSGSS's blue aura doesn't emit ordinary ki, but a different type of ki. I'm not saying such ki control gives god power, it is just a way to use their ki more efficiently, so they can get stronger faster than in regular training.

[ZombieVito]

Why do people have SSJ Gohan (RoF) around his Ultimate form?

Because after 7 years of no training he could still transform into a Super Saiyan 2 at will with zero drawbacks apart for not getting a rage boost. I just can't see him not having the body to resist regular Super Saiyan unless he has comparable power to his max potential in that form.

[Neon Z]

Why do people have SSJ Gohan (RoF) around his Ultimate form?

Because Base Gohan seems to be stronger than Piccolo (being able to send Tagoma flying with a generic ki blast while Piccolo wouldn't make him flinch, also standing up after being beaten up by Ginyu/Tagoma while Piccolo was out of the fight in one hit), so SSJ Gohan has to be a significant boost from that.

[LightBing]

Nowhere is it said you can only become SSB, after getting SSJG. SSB appears to simply be a regular SSJ, infused with God Ki. During training, Whis told the Oracle Fish, how Goku and Vegeta just reached a level where they can feel the ki of the Gods. It's fair to assume, the requirement for God ki is only a reaching a certain level of power, combined with some of that ki control.
The power gain being small in comparison with the regular SSJ, is that Base already holds most of the potential power. However, there will always some that can only be accessed by going SSJ/SSB.
Why the infusion with God Ki? I don't know. Maybe it has advantages that haven't yet been stated.

Regarding Mutated SSJ2, it's not that different from SSJ3. A powerful form with big drawbacks. In this case it only functions as a burst. Vegeta triggered it that instant by rage.

That really undermines the whole God Ki thing though. If its not a completely different type of energy unique to a select few, then why even have it exist at all if you can just get it by becoming really strong? Why would just becoming really strong alter your power to something else entirely. I mean, we know its a different type of energy since Gods can't be sensed. Was it just overhyped BS or is this a case of Super (probably) being just stupid with powers?

As for Rageta, his rage outs never did anything for him so unless him believing in the heart of the cards and raging out is the answer to mutating SSJ2, I can't really buy that as a good explanation.

Yup, I don't understand the point of God ki. Besides making it plausible how we never once heard about Whis and Beerus. Hoping we'll get some new information, besides the two movies and Super, it barely was expanded upon after it's introduction.

Well, Goku never turned SSJ when he got angry as a kid. Gohan also had various moments where he got angry and didn't turn SSJ. I don't see the problem with the explanation, it follows the series trend. Vegeta only got it because he got angry at that point of his life, with the possible requirements now being fulfilled.

[ekrolo2]

That really undermines the whole God Ki thing though. If its not a completely different type of energy unique to a select few, then why even have it exist at all if you can just get it by becoming really strong? Why would just becoming really strong alter your power to something else entirely. I mean, we know its a different type of energy since Gods can't be sensed. Was it just overhyped BS or is this a case of Super (probably) being just stupid with powers?

As for Rageta, his rage outs never did anything for him so unless him believing in the heart of the cards and raging out is the answer to mutating SSJ2, I can't really buy that as a good explanation.

Yup, I don't understand the point of God ki. Besides making it plausible how we never once heard about Whis and Beerus. Hoping we'll get some new information, besides the two movies and Super, it barely was expanded upon after it's introduction.

Well, Goku never turned SSJ when he got angry as a kid. Gohan also had various moments where he got angry and didn't turn SSJ. I don't see the problem with the explanation, it follows the series trend. Vegeta only got it because he got angry at that point of his life, with the possible requirements now being fulfilled.

Wouldn't it have been better to make him an SSJ3 instead though? I know a while back I argued with someone on this point in favor of SSJ2 but 3 would realistically make more sense, even if it ultimately was shelved for the God stuff soon after.

[LightBing]

Wouldn't it have been better to make him an SSJ3 instead though? I know a while back I argued with someone on this point in favor of SSJ2 but 3 would realistically make more sense, even if it ultimately was shelved for the God stuff soon after.

Story wise, it wouldn't. The point of the scene was to have Vegeta surpass Goku, while surprising the audience :"Vegeta's faring better against Beerus than SSJ3 Goku!!!". If he just turned into a SSJ3, it would be a repetition of the SSJ3 Goku fight.
SSJ3 was talked by Goku as a demanding transformation. Causing him to be tired and breathless minutes after he used it. I think it's not supposed to be easily achievable in the living World. Gotenks is the exception but he was two people joined together by a magic dance, so maybe it's easier for them...
I can't gather proof for my last point, although it isn't far-fetched or fallacious, I think.

[ekrolo2]

Wouldn't it have been better to make him an SSJ3 instead though? I know a while back I argued with someone on this point in favor of SSJ2 but 3 would realistically make more sense, even if it ultimately was shelved for the God stuff soon after.

Story wise, it wouldn't. The point of the scene was to have Vegeta surpass Goku, while surprising the audience :"Vegeta's faring better against Beerus than SSJ3 Goku!!!". If he just turned into a SSJ3, it would be a repetition of the SSJ3 Goku fight.
SSJ3 was talked by Goku as a demanding transformation. Causing him to be tired and breathless minutes after he used it. I think it's not supposed to be easily achievable in the living World. Gotenks is the exception but he was two people joined together by a magic dance, so maybe it's easier for them...
I can't gather proof for my last point, although it isn't far-fetched or fallacious, I think.

You can still have him faring better than Goku by turning SSJ3 and getting in his shots at Beerus. I know it's a demanding transformation but it would make more sense for him to just force his way into it and be a physical wreck afterward than magically stealing Gohan's rage boost. Something that never worked for him. Maybe that's what his Mutated SSJ2 is, him trying to force himself into a 3 but failing to do it properly.

[LightBing]

Wouldn't it have been better to make him an SSJ3 instead though? I know a while back I argued with someone on this point in favor of SSJ2 but 3 would realistically make more sense, even if it ultimately was shelved for the God stuff soon after.

Story wise, it wouldn't. The point of the scene was to have Vegeta surpass Goku, while surprising the audience :"Vegeta's faring better against Beerus than SSJ3 Goku!!!". If he just turned into a SSJ3, it would be a repetition of the SSJ3 Goku fight.
SSJ3 was talked by Goku as a demanding transformation. Causing him to be tired and breathless minutes after he used it. I think it's not supposed to be easily achievable in the living World. Gotenks is the exception but he was two people joined together by a magic dance, so maybe it's easier for them...
I can't gather proof for my last point, although it isn't far-fetched or fallacious, I think.

You can still have him faring better than Goku by turning SSJ3 and getting in his shots at Beerus. I know it's a demanding transformation but it would make more sense for him to just force his way into it and be a physical wreck afterward than magically stealing Gohan's rage boost. Something that never worked for him. Maybe that's what his Mutated SSJ2 is, him trying to force himself into a 3 but failing to do it properly.

It would be harder to swallow and lessen the impact. A SSJ3 Vegeta shouldn't be that different from a SSJ3 Goku.
At first I thought the idea of a rage boost, at least one that big, was ridiculous. But when they used the word Mutated SSJ2 in the episode, I started rationalizing it as a different transformation, akin to the grades of SSJ. And that's fine and kinda cool. This rage boost is more a: Goku just watched Kuririn get murdered and goes SSJ, than the rage boosts Gohan had.
I can see Vegeta trying and failing to reach SSJ3. Makes sense.

Another theory I have for Vegeta not going for SSJ3, is the attempt association of the form exclusively with Goku. With the exception of the promotional manga, Gotenks didn't go SSJ3 in modern Dragon Ball. He had the chances and motivation, for whatever reason SSJ and base were used.

[Noah]

So we can say that Golden Freeza is the strongest being in the univese with mortal Ki?

[Doctor.]

So we can say that Golden Freeza is the strongest being in the univese with mortal Ki?

We don't know if Monaka has Godly Ki or not yet.

[Draconic]

SSJ3 would have made much more sense than a rage boost. For one, it would be a proper explanation for why Vegeta surpasses Goku and the demanding requirements of SSJ3 would explain why Vegeta could only maintain it for a couple of seconds. Of course, I say this after we've got SSGSS, since originally I think it was used to illustrate the fact that the regular SSJ transformation can be more powerful than the others, per Toriyama's statement. However, with Blue now in the picture, that comment seems to have lost it's validity (even though the form IS just SSJ with God Ki, I'm pretty sure that's not what that comment actually meant).

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ3 would have made much more sense than a rage boost. For one, it would be a proper explanation for why Vegeta surpasses Goku and the demanding requirements of SSJ3 would explain why Vegeta could only maintain it for a couple of seconds. Of course, I say this after we've got SSGSS, since originally I think it was used to illustrate the fact that the regular SSJ transformation can be more powerful than the others, per Toriyama's statement. However, with Blue now in the picture, that comment seems to have lost it's validity (even though the form IS just SSJ with God Ki, I'm pretty sure that's not what that comment actually meant).

But becoming a Super Saiyan 3 isn't an emotional based transformation like Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2 were. It's a completely different beast of its own that can't be achieved in the spur of moment unless you're a freak like Gotenks or have a deceased body like Goku did in the Majin Boo arc.

[Noah]

So we can say that Golden Freeza is the strongest being in the univese with mortal Ki?

We don't know if Monaka has Godly Ki or not yet.

And we don't know if Monaca is above a SSGSS which Golden Freeza is.

[Draconic]

SSJ3 would have made much more sense than a rage boost. For one, it would be a proper explanation for why Vegeta surpasses Goku and the demanding requirements of SSJ3 would explain why Vegeta could only maintain it for a couple of seconds. Of course, I say this after we've got SSGSS, since originally I think it was used to illustrate the fact that the regular SSJ transformation can be more powerful than the others, per Toriyama's statement. However, with Blue now in the picture, that comment seems to have lost it's validity (even though the form IS just SSJ with God Ki, I'm pretty sure that's not what that comment actually meant).

But becoming a Super Saiyan 3 isn't an emotional based transformation like Super Saiyan 1 and Super Saiyan 2 were. It's a completely different beast of its own that can't be achieved in the spur of moment unless you're a freak like Gotenks or have a deceased body like Goku did in the Majin Boo arc.

But it would be a little more believable than just a rage boost out of nowhere. It's not like SSJ3 has any requirements set in stone for it anyway since we haven't seen how either Goku or Gotenks achieved it in the first place.

The way you could interpret the scene, keeping track of Toriyama's comment that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are just powered up versions of regular SSJ, is that Vegeta tapped into his potential SSJ3 power without actually achieving the form. Of course, this interpretation doesn't really work for Super, due to how huge the boost was and the lightning specific for the SSJ2 aura, but going by just BoG, I find it a very statisfactory explanation.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

quote="Lord Beerus"]It's a completely different beast of its own that can't be achieved in the spur of moment unless you're a freak like Gotenks or have a deceased body like Goku did in the Majin Boo arc.[/quote]
Fan-theory.