Super Saiyan junk

[Dayspring]

1) The Daizenshuu says that SSJ can be achieved once the Saiyan surpasses his normal limits. So, in theory, does that mean that Gohan could have gone SSJ after he fought Recoom since Saichoru increased his PL to its max? Or that Goku should have been able to once he was used to 100g (as the narrator says he had then surpassed his limits)?

2) SSJ2 is described as "SSJ only twice as powerful". So if SSJ makes you 50 times as strong, that would make SSJ2 100 times more powerful. It says nothing for SSJ3, so would SSJ3 be 150 times as powerful (50x3) or 300 times as powerful (100x3)?

[PsyLiam]

It's impossible, by definition, for someone to "exceed their limits". Therefore I don't think you can base anything on flowery dialogue used to make an event sound important.

[Zackarotto]

1. Well, yeah. Assuming those characters had intense rage back then.

2. I doubt that it actually increases x50, and that you can set such amounts. It just doesn't work out. Therefore, you can't do it with later stages either.

[Deus ex Machina]

That may sound a little redundant (SSJ2 = Twice normal SSJ, SSJ3 = 3 times SSJ) But it sounds pretty reasonable. Toriyama probably didn't bother saying how much stronger each stage was because he didn't want to end up writing himself into a corner. He knew that inconsistencies would end up appearing in the numbers during battles.

[Zackarotto]

Liam, I don't quite agree. Although it is not actually possible to "exceed limits", we've entered a possibility of breakable boundaries that pretend to be limits, and actual limits. I think that was discussed on this board a long time ago... no? Okay then.

[PsyLiam]

But then, those aren't actually "limits", are they? They are boundaries. And breakable ones. And if they're breakable, they can't be "limits".

They seem pretty arbitary anyway. You train at 100g and you "exceed your limits"? Why there? If you train at 99g, do you just "get stronger"?

I don't recall this conversation coming up before, but I might have missed it. It's only Dayspring's post that made me realise how stupid the whole "exceed their limit" stuff actually is.

[Dayspring]

It's impossible, by definition, for someone to "exceed their limits". Therefore I don't think you can base anything on flowery dialogue used to make an event sound important.

Saichoru makes Krillin and Gohan REACH their limits. Over the years they get stronger from that point by fighting and training. The narrator states that Goku exceeded his limits. These are from the manga, not the daizenshuu.

[PsyLiam]

I know that. I'm just saying that it's silly dialogue that doesn't make any sense. The Namek elder released some of Gohan and Kuririn's untapped potential, but he didn't make them as strong as they could possibly ever be. If he did, then they would have reached their limits. But since they got stronger, it obviously wasn't their limits, by the very definition of the word "limit", and good god I'm saying the word limit an awful lot here.

In the same way, Goku can't have exceeded his limits, because, well, he got stronger. Therefore the point he exceeded wasn't actually his limit. It was just some arbitary value stated in narration that didn't actually affect the story in any way apart from making us think "ooh, Goku's all strong now".

[Dayspring]

Unless Saichoru revealing their max set a whole new limit, as did being used to a different gravity for Goku. It would make sense, especially for Goku. A 3rd class Saiyan should have a limit under 1,200. He had either 924 or 928 when he returned to 10g. Then he's in the lower thousands, but gets used to 100g. Since Vegeta's Elite being in the lower tens of thousands makes sense, and then he gets used to 300g.

[James R. Cadwell]

2) SSJ2 is described as "SSJ only twice as powerful". So if SSJ makes you 50 times as strong, that would make SSJ2 100 times more powerful. It says nothing for SSJ3, so would SSJ3 be 150 times as powerful (50x3) or 300 times as powerful (100x3)?

These multipliers are too low. If the second stage of Super Saiya-jin only doubles the power of the initial stage, then Gohan should have only been marginally stronger than Perfect Cell, since the latter already had a clear advantage. The same thing applies to Super Saiya-jin 3. How is it that 33% (or 66%) of the third Super Saiya-jin stage is insufficient to even affect Majin Buu, while 100% is enough to defeat him?

Saichoru makes Krillin and Gohan REACH their limits. Over the years they get stronger from that point by fighting and training. The narrator states that Goku exceeded his limits. These are from the manga, not the daizenshuu.

This seems like a very pedantic interpretation. As PsyLiam has said; it's clearly not their limit if they became stronger afterwards.

I'd say that "limit" when used in the series actually refers to the maximum possible power available at that moment. If Kuririn can only lift 500 kg, then that's his limit. If he trains for six months and becomes strong enough to lift 800 kg, now that's his limit. If a Namek elder releases Kuririn's hidden potential and gives him the ability to lift 10,000 kg, then he has surpassed his normal limit.

[Dayspring]

I retract this whole thread. The SSJ thing was ignored by the Daizenshuu earlier in the PL section since it would be too difficult to calculate, and then they introduced this crap later.

Also, I just remembered Dende healing "Mystic" Gohan and Boo noting that his strength hadn't increased at all. His saiyan cells should have made him stronger there, but didn't since he was at his limit.

[James R. Cadwell]

I retract this whole thread. The SSJ thing was ignored by the Daizenshuu earlier in the PL section since it would be too difficult to calculate, and then they introduced this crap later.

Also, I just remembered Dende healing "Mystic" Gohan and Boo noting that his strength hadn't increased at all. His saiyan cells should have made him stronger there, but didn't since he was at his limit.

You're sure? I thought Buu just said that Gohan's power hadn't increased by very much.

[TripleRach]

I retract this whole thread. The SSJ thing was ignored by the Daizenshuu earlier in the PL section since it would be too difficult to calculate, and then they introduced this crap later.

Also, I just remembered Dende healing "Mystic" Gohan and Boo noting that his strength hadn't increased at all. His saiyan cells should have made him stronger there, but didn't since he was at his limit.

You're sure? I thought Buu just said that Gohan's power hadn't increased by very much.

I remember something like that, too, off the top of my head. I don't quite remember if it was "at all" or "not much", though. Maybe I could go look it up, and verify with Daimao's subs, if necessary.

[Xyex]

Actually, the multiplier for the SSJ levels seems right to me. (I've used them a few times (well, technically 2.5 for SSJ2 and 2 for SSJ3, but whatever) for Fanfics were badies were to be uber powerful, just not in the PL list here on the boards.) Alright, think of it this way:

We'll ASSUME Perfect Cell is: 120,000,00 and that FP Cell is 150,000,000 and that Super Perfect Cell is: 200,000,000

Now we'll also ASSUME that SSJ Gohan is (as many sites like to say) stronger than Perfect Cell and is at: 125,000,000. This would mean that, following the mulitplier, SSJ2 Gohan would be 250,000,000. More than enough to handle Cell, no?

And I know what some of you will say, Gohan's power was cut by half after that blast from SP Cell meaning he'd be back down to 125,000,000. No, not true IMO. Gohan had been constantly under-estimating his power throughout the series. This point is no different. At most his power had dropped to 175,000,000 but, with Goku's urgings, he tapped into even more power to finish Cell off.

Hmmm.... Maybe I should do a complete re-work of the PL list...

Anyway, we'll now proceed to Goku's SSJ3 power. Come the Buu Saga we'll assume Goku's SSJ PL is 160,000,000. SSJ2 Would then equal 320,000,000 which means that SSJ3 would then equal 640,000,000. Quite the boost, no? So yes, I think those Multipliers work very nicely indeed.

Just for the hell of it I'm going to run off the 2.5 SSJ2 followed by 2 SSJ3 boost levels as well. Once again we'll start with SSJ Gohan at 125,000,000. At 2.5 SSJ2 would equal 312,500,000. Again, he could easily deal with Cell like that, and half power would only cut him down to 156,250,000 though I still say he was exagerating his drop in power.

Now for Goku's Buu powers at 2.5 boosts. SSJ Goku = 160,000,000 SSJ2 Goku = 400,000,000 and SSJ3 Goku = 800,000,000. Again, very powerful boosts.

[James R. Cadwell]

Actually, the multiplier for the SSJ levels seems right to me. (I've used them a few times (well, technically 2.5 for SSJ2 and 2 for SSJ3, but whatever) for Fanfics were badies were to be uber powerful, just not in the PL list here on the boards.)

I wasn't really talking about the power levels, which have already been established as non-linear -- I'm talking about raw physical strength and durability. Super Saiya-jin 2 cannot be only twice as powerful as the first stage of Super Saiya-jin. Someone stuck on the level of the initial Super Saiya-jin stage can't even affect a fighter with power equivalent to Super Saiya-jin 2. Needless to say, it's really quite easy to injure someone who's physically only twice as strong and durable as you are.

I mean, seriously -- two sheets of paper are twice as resistant to a jet of water as one sheet, but a squirt gun that puts a hole through one piece of paper isn't going to mysteriously have no effect whatsoever on two pieces stapled together. Now fifty pieces, on the other hand....

[Xyex]

But you looking at power in a linear fashion. Who says that, at that level of strenght, being half as strong as someone will actualy feel like half as strong as someone. It could feel like you're only at 20% of their strength.

With linear powers someone at 500,000,000 could fight someone at 1,000,000,000 and win. That would mean SSJ2 Goku could have fought Super Buu, not to mention SSJ3, and won.

[James R. Cadwell]

But you looking at power in a linear fashion. Who says that, at that level of strenght, being half as strong as someone will actualy feel like half as strong as someone. It could feel like you're only at 20% of their strength.

Yes, I understand that a scouter reading of 500 might really only be equivalent to 20% of the raw physical strength that someone possesses when they reach a power level of 1000. That's not really relevant to my original point, which is that Super Saiya-jin 2 is far greater than only twice as physically strong and durable as the first stage of Super Saiya-jin.

Sure, if you were to use a scouter, you could conceivably come up with a reading of five million for a Super Saiya-jin and ten million for a Super Saiya-jin 2. But the actual difference in raw strength and durability would have to be much greater.

With linear powers someone at 500,000,000 could fight someone at 1,000,000,000 and win. That would mean SSJ2 Goku could have fought Super Buu, not to mention SSJ3, and won.

If someone wanted to create a linear power level scale, it would have to be substantially different from the non-linear version used in the series.

Something like:

Normal form Goku -- 500,000

Super Saiya-jin Goku -- 25,000,000

Super Saiya-jin 2 Goku -- 1,250,000,000

Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku -- 62,500,000,000

Using the non-linear scale from the series, you'd probably see something closer to your power levels. Using a purely linear scale, you might see something like the above.

[PsyLiam]

Isn't it still all a bit irrelevent. It's not like you're trying to get one number from another...you're having to invent every single reading, based on a scale that barely makes sense as it is. Eg...

We'll ASSUME Perfect Cell is: 120,000,00 and that FP Cell is 150,000,000 and that Super Perfect Cell is: 200,000,000

Now we'll also ASSUME that SSJ Gohan is (as many sites like to say) stronger than Perfect Cell and is at: 125,000,000. This would mean that, following the mulitplier, SSJ2 Gohan would be 250,000,000. More than enough to handle Cell, no?

Such as here, where all the numbers are completely made up. Why can't Perfect Cell be 130,000,000? Or 120,000,000? Or 5,000,000,000,000,000?

If you had some sort of way of showing how strong the people are other than the scouters, then maybe. If people stated that they could press 1 million kilos normally, and 2 million at SSJ, then you could start guessing numbers. If people said that they were 1.5 times as strong as they were when they fought Nappa, then again, you could guess numbers. But the only physical measurements we have are the fact that Gohan gets more spiky hair. He doesn't gain any new abilities, he just gets better at what he can already do. If Cell had gotten weaker, the results would have been the same. Gohan could be twice as strong as Cell, or 50 times as strong. There really is no-way to know.

[James R. Cadwell]

Gohan could be twice as strong as Cell, or 50 times as strong. There really is no-way to know.

It's hard to determine the precise difference in strength, but durability is easy. Vegeta bounced a "ki" attack off "Super" Perfect Cell's back, so presumably it wouldn't have bothered Super Saiya-jin 2 Gohan, either. That demonstrates a huge difference in durability between the first stage of Super Saiya-jin (which I would assume couldn't shrug off Vegeta's attack) and the second.

[PsyLiam]

But what's the scientific formula that shows at what difference in power a ki blast's affect goes from "oof" to "fucking hell that hurt!"?