Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Super Saiyan God Goku being a 6 seems fine to me it's just after that when it becomes a little too tight.

It would have been simpler if Super Saiyan Blue was just as strong as SSJG however apparently it's stronger. It doesn't have to be that much stronger. He doesn't have to be a 7 or a 7.5, a 6.5 would be suitable.

Then Golden Frieza could be between 7-7.5.

And then there's enough room for Goku and Vegeta to increase after the ROSAT training, maybe at that point they could be around 7.5-8. Thatd still make them comfortably weaker than Champa.

[buutenks]

Super Saiyan God Goku being a 6 seems fine to me it's just after that when it becomes a little too tight.

It would have been simpler if Super Saiyan Blue was just as strong as SSJG however apparently it's stronger. It doesn't have to be that much stronger. He doesn't have to be a 7 or a 7.5, a 6.5 would be suitable.

Then Golden Freeza could be between 7-7.5.

And then there's enough room for Goku and Vegeta to increase after the ROSAT training, maybe at that point they could be around 7.5-8. Thatd still make them comfortably weaker than Champa.

Yes,the movies did better in that aspect.Since goku after he lost his god form,he didnt retain 100% of its power,so to get that power back and so forth he trained with whis,so him being a 7 in ssj blue makes sense.But in super he already was that strong,so he should be a 8 in ssj blue,but thats to close to beerus and champa,which i dont like IMO.But if its like 7 thats to low of a power boost considering how far vegeta got in 6 months.

basically the gap is so small,all the effort they put to get stronger,seems a bit pitiful,why i thought that if the gap between beerus and god goku was bigger it would feel more rewarding.

Edit:Though i guess u can explain it as,since the power is so great gaining 20% in ssj blue over regular base goku is huge.Just kinda pales compared to previous transformations.

[Doctor.]

Blue can't be a 6.5. Beerus said that Goku absorbed ALL of the energy of the Super Saiyan God and a few episodes ago, he said that him and Vegeta had become much stronger than before. This implies that SS/Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku, and Blue is even stronger than that.

[buutenks]

Blue can't be a 6.5. Beerus said that Goku absorbed ALL of the energy of the Super Saiyan God and a few episodes ago, he said that him and Vegeta had become much stronger than before. This implies that SS/Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku, and Blue is even stronger than that.

Ye gap is so small,doesnt make sense.

either by much stronger he means well u r now 10% stronger than u were before..lol ^^ Or the gap between beerus and god goku is huge,like whis said when he compared the tree to the temple.

[Doctor.]

The gap isn't small. I personally place Goku and Vegeta around the 6-6.5 range, with Blue around 7-7.5. Even if they were, say, an 8 as Blue, they're still only 80% of Beerus, 20% is a huge difference in Dragon Ball, that's the difference between Vegeta on Namek and someone like Dodoria, for instance.

[buutenks]

The gap isn't small. I personally place Goku and Vegeta around the 6-6.5 range, with Blue around 7-7.5. Even if they were, say, an 8 as Blue, they're still only 80% of Beerus, 20% is a huge difference in Dragon Ball, that's the difference between Vegeta on Namek and someone like Dodoria, for instance.

Still such small gains ^^

[Neon Z]

Like I explained earlier, Super Saiyan God Goku has to be stronger than Beerus at 10% of his power, because Beerus praised him, and Goku got TWO power boosts after that. Also Beerus stated that he can only nulify the energy to destroy the universe at full power, and there wouldn't really be a reason to lie about that. So, even if you think the 6-10-15 scale doesn't work, Goku has to be at least above Beerus' 10%, much higher than that.

Beerus stated that he was using his full power against Goku, but he was lying about that (and Goku never called him out on it). So, I don't think he actually used 100% of his power at any time.

It also throws into question his 10% comment about Vegeta, IMO. Goku was watching all that, after all, and he didn't doubt Beerus comment about using 100% later, so, Beerus likely had powered up by 10x by that point... and yet that wasn't his full power.

[ssbgoku]

The gap isn't small. I personally place Goku and Vegeta around the 6-6.5 range, with Blue around 7-7.5. Even if they were, say, an 8 as Blue, they're still only 80% of Beerus, 20% is a huge difference in Dragon Ball, that's the difference between Vegeta on Namek and someone like Dodoria, for instance.

I think the same.

The gap isn't small. I personally place Goku and Vegeta around the 6-6.5 range, with Blue around 7-7.5. Even if they were, say, an 8 as Blue, they're still only 80% of Beerus, 20% is a huge difference in Dragon Ball, that's the difference between Vegeta on Namek and someone like Dodoria, for instance.

Still such small gains ^^

Maybe, but they are still some explanations Akira may pull off to keep it leggit:

1) Power scale is not linear so the gap between 1-2 and 2-3 would be different. The gap between 9-10 would be much more bigger then 1-2, Could be exponential. I know this manga or anime is rather for kids or early teen years so it shouldn't be complicated.

2) Possible the number of whis's power is such giant number that when you meassure how much is 10 and 6 then the gap of 1 unit is such huge that even 50 muliplier makes goku and vegeta only 7 as ssjb.

3) It could be combination of both.

Also about gain after Spirit time room. I believe gains in base would be such small or insignificant making them both goku and vegeta from 7.5(golden frieza) but below 8 or at the most 8.

[Doctor.]

Beerus stated that he was using his full power against Goku, but he was lying about that (and Goku never called him out on it). So, I don't think he actually used 100% of his power at any time.

It also throws into question his 10% comment about Vegeta, IMO. Goku was watching all that, after all, and he didn't doubt Beerus comment about using 100% later, so, Beerus likely had powered up by 10x by that point... and yet that wasn't his full power.

Goku couldn't sense Godly Ki at the time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That would leave room for ssj blue to be a useful powerup,not a mere 1.2 -1.3 power up.

A x1.2-1.3 boost is actually a significant boost. Look at the Vegeta (24000) vs base Zarbon (23000) fight. Vegeta was much stronger than Zarbon, to the point that Zarbon couldn't do shit against Vegeta, and that's only a 1.04 difference. Or Vegeta vs Dodoria (22000), Dodoria couldn't even see him getting behind him, and was killed with a single ki blast, and that was only a x1.09 difference.

[Birusu16]

Like I explained earlier, Super Saiyan God Goku has to be stronger than Beerus at 10% of his power, because Beerus praised him, and Goku got TWO power boosts after that. Also Beerus stated that he can only nulify the energy to destroy the universe at full power, and there wouldn't really be a reason to lie about that. So, even if you think the 6-10-15 scale doesn't work, Goku has to be at least above Beerus' 10%, much higher than that.

Hmm,clearly that 10% statement put a wall on how strong beerus can be in relation to ssj god goku.

I was thinking of ssj god goku to be idk 30% ish.That would leave room for ssj blue to be a useful powerup,not a mere 1.2 -1.3 power up.

That's pretty much the way I see it. It's really the only way that Whis' tree comparison makes any sense. Beerus had to of used far less than 70% against Goku. If he only used 70% then that completely invalidates Whis' comparison unless one believes a 30% gap is enormous, which it could be. Power levels don't scale linearly in DB.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's really the only way that Whis' tree comparison makes any sense.

What comparison?

[Birusu16]

It's really the only way that Whis' tree comparison makes any sense.

What comparison?

Whis' tree comparison where he basically states Goku and Vegeta are only at the level of a small tree (despite having the full power of SSJG at their disposal) while the realm of the gods (presumably himself and Beerus) are the level of Beerus huge tree/castle. This only gets more complicated later as Goku and Vegeta have underwent even more training and Goku still states Beerus' power is far beyond his and Vegeta's. Not to mention them now training in the RoSaT for 3 years and will likely stil be weaker than Beerus.

Either the gains are incredibly small, a 40% gap is far bigger than what it seems to be, or Beerus used far less than 70% of his power against Goku because there's no way Beerus should be so far ahead of them at this point like it's being implied in the show based on that 6/10/15 scale. That's why I personally throw that scale out the window at this point.

[shadd21]

Wouldn't the tree to castle comparison contradict Whis' statement in RF that Goku and Vegeta working together would be a match for Beerus? i dunno everything stated about power levels in Super so far may all be Toei's doing and the Champa arc may go back to the 6-10-15 statements considering Toriyama's more involved with it.

[ekrolo2]

Its best to not try and combine what the movies said and do with what Supers saying and doing. Ssimply ignoring whatever the hell the re-tellings are doing with powers and going by the movies is the best solution. I doubt Toriyama's gonna pay them much attention when U6 starts for anything anyway.

[Birusu16]

Wouldn't the tree to castle comparison contradict Whis' statement in RF that Goku and Vegeta working together would be a match for Beerus? i dunno everything stated about power levels in Super so far may all be Toei's doing and the Champa arc may go back to the 6-10-15 statements considering Toriyama's more involved with it.

You can't take a statement from Super and try and place it in the movies or vice-versa. And unless Toriyama decides to take the U6 arc as a continuation of the movies rather than Super then Super is where I'll lean towards when it comes to power levels.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What are you guys talking about?

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

There is no comparison with little trees, Goku & Vegeta have already reached the level of gods in base.

[Birusu16]

What are you guys talking about?

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

There is no comparison with little trees, Goku & Vegeta have already reached the level of gods in base.

Yes there is. When Whis says Goku and Vegeta's power is only about this high he's referencing a small little tree right in front of him. The comparison was meant to show that Goku and Vegeta were still nowhere near the level of Whis and Beerus whose power was symbolized by Beerus' huge castle in said comparison.

Watch the episode again. As he begins to say "if that castle up there were the level of the gods" we get a close shot of Beerus' huge tree/castle and then as he begins to say "then their power is only about this high" we get a close shot of him looking directly at a small tree. Basically Goku and Vegeta = small tree while Whis and Beerus = huge tree. That was pretty much the gist of what he was saying.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Saw the scene again, my bad. But still, that statement doesn't make the 6-10-15 numbers impossible, since there is a huge difference from 6 to 10. And, there are other things in Super that make this impossible to not be the case.

• Base Goku managed to destroy the huge energy ball from the merged ki blasts from SS Goku & Beerus with a punch, while he could barely hold it as a Super Saiyan (who was as strong as Super Saiyan God).
• Base Goku & Vegeta survived hits from Beerus at full power.
• Beerus was interested in fighting base Goku & Vegeta after seeing that they have gotten stronger than they were before.
• In the manga, base Goku survived a ki blast in the face from SSB Vegeta.

And as for the ki blast from full power Beerus that almost killed base Goku, if Vegeta can kill Dodoria with a single ki blast when there is a x1.09 difference, the Beerus should be able to kil Goku with a single ki blast and a x1.6 difference.

Base Goku & Vegeta may not be anywhere close to the level of gods like Beerus & Whis, but they are definitely close to the level of Super Saiyan God, if not beyond that level after Whis' training.

Also, even though Beerus didn't use his full power against SSG Goku, his power against him can't be very far from his full power, since he was surprised that Whis noticed that he wasn't fighting at full power. So, him fighting at 70% like in the movie is very possible.

[Birusu16]

Saw the scene again, my bad. But still, that statement doesn't make the 6-10-15 numbers impossible, since there is a huge difference from 6 to 10. And, there are other things in Super that make this impossible to not be the case.

• Base Goku managed to destroy the huge energy ball from the merged ki blasts from SS Goku & Beerus with a punch, while he could barely hold it as a Super Saiyan (who was as strong as Super Saiyan God).
• Base Goku & Vegeta survived hits from Beerus at full power.
• Beerus was interested in fighting base Goku & Vegeta after seeing that they have gotten stronger than they were before.
• In the manga, base Goku survived a ki blast in the face from SSB Vegeta.

And as for the ki blast from full power Beerus that almost killed base Goku, if Vegeta can kill Dodoria with a single ki blast when there is a x1.09 difference, the Beerus should be able to kil Goku with a single ki blast and a x1.6 difference.

Base Goku & Vegeta may not be anywhere close to the level of gods like Beerus & Whis, but they are definitely close to the level of Super Saiyan God, if not beyond that level after Whis' training.

Also, even though Beerus didn't use his full power against SSG Goku, his power against him can't be very far from his full power, since he was surprised that Whis noticed that he wasn't fighting at full power. So, him fighting at 70% like in the movie is very possible.

I've given this as a plausible option where I said the only possible way for it to fit is if a 40% gap is much bigger than what it seems to be, which I admit is possible. There's really no other way for it to fit unless you believe Goku and Vegeta weren't even remotely close to the power of SSJG when Whis made that comparison, which is contradicted by numerous pieces of evidence.