Getting something off my chest...

[Imtoooldforthis]

Hi guys, this is my first post here. I have discovered this forum a couple of days ago, because I have been dying to share my opinion about the new DBS series and learn others', and sadly enough I don’t know anyone nearby in the physical sense who I can talk to about it! So here are my thoughts. I’m sorry if they are just nothing new, but I just need to get it OUT. Even if no one reads them! Before I start, I must say that I am a fan of DB and I think Toriyama is awesome. But I have my share of criticisms on this new series, just like any fan has.

1 - Toriyama is not evolving with his way of telling stories. He is repeating everything, the same formulas over and over again: an enemy comes, and Goku is away for some reason. Then when all hope is lost, Goku returns and wins. I mean, okay, perhaps I should not be expecting Oscar-winning screenwriting here, especially when there is a new episode every week, but at least in DBZ he'd created reasons that felt believable enough and did not seem too repetitive. Goku training on his way to Namek – great. Goku super sick (as Trunks foretold) and then having to train to regain form and such – great. Even the Buu saga, which was already weaker, had a nice story about why Goku wasn’t there.
However, Goku's delay during the BoG arc was just pathetic. And now on the RoF arc, Toriyama had once again come up with something good, exciting, interesting - which was Goku and Vegeta training with Whis. But then what does he do? He cuts it short. Which brings me to my second point:

2 - This whole DBS experience has felt so rushed. Some say that it’s because the two movies already told the story and they want to move on to the new stuff, but FFS have some decency. Look at the amount of episodes each saga had in DBZ. People can whine all the want about how there was a lot of fillers, but the fillers there were at least interesting (except when it was between sagas, but still the story with Gohan’s super saiyaman was ok). It’s like it’s children making DBS, and they are as impatient and as anxious as the fans waiting for the new material to start. DBS deserves better treatment!

3 – Frieza, WTF? Seriously? Was Toriyama perhaps pressured to resurrect him for marketing reasons? I mean, am I the only one completely unexcited, and actually disappointed with Frieza's reappearance? No matter what BS explanation Toriyama can come up with about Frieza training to become stronger, NOTHING can make ME, someone who watched the entire DBZ series, believe that Frieza could EVER become strong enough to pose a threat to Goku, Vegeta or Gohan. Hell, I suppose even Piccolo should be stronger than him, as we saw him giving the imperfect Cell a tough time on DBZ. Haha I might be exaggerating, but whatever. Either way, let's say we have to run with this story because he was pressured to bring an old villain back because of marketing reasons or simply the nostalgia factor. Well he could've brought another one, no? I mean, what’s up with his insistence on bring Frieza again and again? It strikes me as a lack of creativity.

4- When I watched the BoG movie, I was so excited. The movie was not the best I’d ever seen, but it was good enough, and the potential for new, original stories that came from it me ramble endlessly to my girlfriend about the endless possibilities there (she doesn't even care about DB lol). I mean, finally, with this whole multiverse concept, we would have a believable way to find enemies even stronger than Buu. Because, let’s be honest, even though Buu was cool, he was not as cool as Frieza and Cell, and anyway how can you top his “level of difficulty”? So, when the series finally started, and I found myself increasingly more bored while watching it, I thought that my tediousness was due to the fact that I already knew the story because I had seen the movie. Therefore I chose not to watch RoF, so that I would be more excited with the story. But guess what? I'm bored as hell anyway. Why, because I have grown older? Hell no: as a young teenager in Brazil, I had never finished watching DBZ (over 13 years ago), so it was only a couple of years ago that I was able to watch the Buu saga (and rewatched the Cell saga as well) and guess what? I loved it just as much. There was suspense, even when it was clearly just filler, I was there, hooked, couldn't stop myself from wondering what was going to happen next. The humoristic moments were good and did not destroy the mood, and the fights were amazing. But DBS is just... there is no tension, no suspense. There is potential around Beerus, but Toriyama seems to have grown more fond of comedy through the years and it drowns the suspense for me. And the stories around it are just too boring for even the funny moments to be worth it. The bad guy comes and fights. There is no search for dragon balls, no travelling to another planet, no stopping the mad scientist, nothing. Frieza just came with a bunch of soldiers and the fight was on. How boring is that? Clearly I cannot and should NOT expect DBS to surpass DBZ or even match its grandeur. But if it got close enough, it would still be great. Right now it's far, far, FAR away from anything as good as DBZ ever was – right now even DBGT had more exciting moments. Which brings me to my next point:

5 - The whole SSJG stuff. I know many people dislike DBGT, and I myself am no big fan of it, but one gotta admit that they did come up with some cool concepts. I am of course talking about the SSJ4. Not only is its design super cool and original, the concept is also super awesome: all that stuff about turning into the golden great ape and obtaining consciousness. It fit well with the story, all the way back from the original DB series, combining with the SSJ idea, in a kind of cycle, closure. I know that people want DBS to just be completely original and written/designed by Toriyama, but I for one thought that the SSJ4 concept was too good to be forgotten and left out of “canon”. I for one did not like the SSJG idea. I mean, sure, it’s great, but the way Goku achieved it was TOO easy. I mean, it seems such a huge step from being a SSJ3, it deserved its own amazingness, like we had when Goku transformed into SSJ for the first time, or Gohan into SSJ2. It felt like Toriyama just couldn’t be bothered, perhaps because there is not enough time in a movie (which did come before the DBS series). I also did not like the SSJG design, but at least I understood it: Toriyama is going for something simple – less is more. Except that that is not what DB is about, at least not since DBZ. More is more! We all saw the SSJ3: Toriyama was clearly going for more at each step. And then this SSJGSSJ looks like – as someone here on this forum wrote before – something fanmade. It’s just a SSJ in blue. It doesn’t even look cool imho. Because it’s not new. What is he going to do now? Have the SSJGSSJ2, SSJGSSJ3 look the same but blue-haired? Come ON! The SSJ4 was much cooler, especially because it turned them into something new and different!!

6 - Another good idea by DBGT was the final arc with the shadow dragons: sure, the execution was kind of poor, but again the idea behind, the potential, would be a perfect ending for the series. Why? Because it offers closure again. I know that idea of Gods and multiverse and whatnot is grand, but I wonder if it can have the same feeling of closure as fighting the shadow dragons, who were directly related to the dragon balls, which is what the whole series revolves around!

Now, like many of you, I am more than excited at the prospect of the next arc being amazing. Because, like I said before, the whole idea that came with the story of Beerus and Whis brought this immense potential to the series, that could make it as thrilling as hearing Future Trunks talk about the alternative future back in DBZ. It really does. And it really could do it. But I must admit that although I'm hopeful, I am not too optimistic about it (if that makes sense). I think that in the end the next arc will have too much talk and fun and too little action, too little tenseness, thrills, suspense, just as it’s been until now. I really freaking hope that I am wrong. Toriyama is a great storyteller, and I am sure that he has the talent to come up with something great. The U6 arc has all the potential I rambled about to my girlfriend when I first saw the BoG movie. I hope they prove me wrong, that this new series is not a mistake worse than DBGT. I hope. I really do.

[AnimeMaakuo]

I really enjoyed the musical score for DBGT and admittedly so. As I mentioned before in another thread, I cannot take any new material seriously because it's completely absurd and out of place. You might as well color their hair/eyebrows light brown and call them Super Saiyan TURD Super Saiyan because that's where I feel the direction of the franchise is headed.

Again folks, before you get your feathers ruffled, remind yourself that this is my opinion.

[Doctor.]

After Battle of Gods, I thought we were gonna get a Dragon Ball that was a bit smarter with the way it utilizes its characters and develops its plot, but I guess not, because we were back to the generic DBZEEEE nonsense with F (and to an extent, Super's BoG arc as well as Super's F arc). I don't mind if Super continues to be generic Dragon Ball as long as it doesn't get to the point of annoyance like F. I don't really care if U6 doesn't try to be as smart and self-aware as BoG was as long as it's still entertaining like, say, the Boo arc.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

You are not the only one thinking "Well, maybe next year" when Freeza was announced for this year's movie, I assure you. Those were almost my words, in fact.

While I will not judge Super by the movie arcs, particularly for having loved the actual new bits, the crux of the problem is that the end of the Z-era demands a different kind of story. Too many of the characters are "settled" for your typical Z plot to work anymore. But a slower narrative doesn't sell. The suspense card is real; Beerus is proof that you can make it work in a Buu sort of way, and GT could pull it off so it does not require a great story, but it seems to be an artistic choice that must be deliberstely made.

[Xeztin]

I think the entire point of the ROF arc was because the Freeza arc was where it was supposed to end, but because of the demand for more Jump talked Toriyama into continuing the story. I also heard that Cell was never a thing, but rather 16-18 was supposed to be the main villains but Toriyama was told that the main villain needs to be vicious looking like Freeza. I don't remember where I read all of this but i'm pretty sure it was told by Toriyama's editor in a recent interview who was with him through the running of the Dragon Ball manga. Anyways, after continuing the series yet again after the Cell arc, that's when the SSJ3 design came into play as he wanted it to be and look like the end all be all transformation. In other words the final arc and end of the Dragon Ball series and after it was finished I believe said he couldn't do it anymore. I Agree with you that it doesn't feel anything like DBZ and that the new Super Saiyan designs are a bit "off" or repetitive. I've said it from the begging that the red haired "SSG" should have been Saiyan God, and the blue one Super Saiyan God. I think Super Saiyan Blue is the last recolor transformation we will get, I think if there is a next one it will be completely different. At least I hope....

[Ringworm128]

19 and 20 were supposed to be the main villains for the entire arc but Toriyama's editor at the time complained so Toriyama brought in 17 and 18. The editor kept complaining about the villain designs until Toriyama came up with Cell's perfect form.

[Soppa Saia People]

I think the entire point of the ROF arc was because the Freeza arc was where it was supposed to end.

Ugh http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

[NitroEX]

Oh, trust me, you're not alone in the way you're thinking. There are plenty of us in the fandom (myself included) who are very dissatisfied with the direction this franchise is taking but unfortunately... it seems our complaints are falling on deaf ears. Despite what the apologist fans might say, I still think the story and characters have suffered a lot since ROF, BOG wasn't so bad (especially since it left plenty of room to grow) but ROF took it to a level of crazy that I just can't bring myself to get behind. I'm still amazed that a franchise as beloved as Dragonball was allowed to be steered in such a strange direction, it makes me wonder if Toei even bothers with quality control.

I think it's going to take a miracle for the final arc to undo what's been done so far. I'm admittedly not very optimistic at this point but I will stick around to see how this trainwreck ends.

[Vijay]

I agree with ALL ur points mate

I never liked Frieza in da 1st place. His ressurection & asspull for him rivallin Goku & Vegeta was ugh....

His Golden form has also paved way for trolls like "whats next? Platinum Cell. Diamond Buu?"

DBZ's iconic episodes usually have superb direction/screen-writing. Ep 229 for instance. Drama & tension revolving Goku & Majin Vegeta's destined match with various subplots (Goku threathening Kaioshin, Vegeta defyin Babidi, Gohan's guilt over spoiling his Dad's precious day-off on Earth). Just wow!

Compared to THAT, Supa isnt worth Kaioshin's poop

[Xeztin]

19 and 20 were supposed to be the main villains for the entire arc but Toriyama's editor at the time complained so Toriyama brought in 17 and 18. The editor kept complaining about the villain designs until Toriyama came up with Cell's perfect form.

Yea that was right, sorry! I have a bad memory

[Imtoooldforthis]

I really enjoyed the musical score for DBGT and admittedly so. As I mentioned before in another thread, I cannot take any new material seriously because it's completely absurd and out of place. You might as well color their hair/eyebrows light brown and call them Super Saiyan TURD Super Saiyan because that's where I feel the direction of the franchise is headed.

Again folks, before you get your feathers ruffled, remind yourself that this is my opinion.

DBGT's intro song was perhaps the best!! Really, I love it, together with the original DBZ intro theme. Exactly, lol super sayan turd super sayan... it's true. It seems so strangely uncreative by Toriyama. As of now I prefer to regard DBGT as the real sequel - seriously! Like I said, the execution might've been poor, but the ideas behind DBGT's sagas were quite good (SSJ4, shadow dragons).. I mean, I prefer the Super Android 17 than this Golden Freeza, honestly. (At least conceptually - it's been a long time since I watched DBGT so I don't remember how the execution was)

After Battle of Gods, I thought we were gonna get a Dragon Ball that was a bit smarter with the way it utilizes its characters and develops its plot, but I guess not, because we were back to the generic DBZEEEE nonsense with F (and to an extent, Super's BoG arc as well as Super's F arc). I don't mind if Super continues to be generic Dragon Ball as long as it doesn't get to the point of annoyance like F. I don't really care if U6 doesn't try to be as smart and self-aware as BoG was as long as it's still entertaining like, say, the Boo arc.

What do you mean the generic DBZ nonsense? hehe I started rewatching DBZ the other day, just for fun, and even the early "filler" episodes (before Vegeta arrives for the first time) are more interesting than what's going on now on DBS. I mean, the episodes about Gohan surviving in the wild before training with Piccolo is a great way to show how he matures in the months leading up to the big battle against the Sayans. We don't see that on DBS :/. All the talks that take up most of the episode add little to nothing to the story, or if it does, it's not written in a very interesting manner. If it gets anything like the Boo arc I'd say it's good enough, for sure!! The ending of the BoG movie was just amazing, I mean, Goku lost!! That was something new - I mean, in the previous battles, even if he lost, someone would win it for him like Gohan.. this time there wasn't anyone up to the challenge, it was great.

You are not the only one thinking "Well, maybe next year" when Freeza was announced for this year's movie, I assure you. Those were almost my words, in fact.

While I will not judge Super by the movie arcs, particularly for having loved the actual new bits, the crux of the problem is that the end of the Z-era demands a different kind of story. Too many of the characters are "settled" for your typical Z plot to work anymore. But a slower narrative doesn't sell. The suspense card is real; Beerus is proof that you can make it work in a Buu sort of way, and GT could pull it off so it does not require a great story, but it seems to be an artistic choice that must be deliberstely made.

Hehe, yeah man, Freeza was such a disappointing direction after what BoG promised. I keep telling myself that that was not Toriyama's choice, that he was rather pressured into it because of commercial reasons.

Interesting what you said about the characters being settled. The thing is that after the Freeza saga on DBZ, most of them early characters stopped being interesting because they clearly couldn't keep up, except for Piccolo who still kicked some ass during Cell's saga. After that, ok, I understand, it became a Sayan series, they are the only ones able to keep up, so you either go for that and let the other characters slowly go, or you bring in new characters and substitute them. But , of course, for sentimental reasons, he brings Kuririn back , Tenshinhan, etc... I love them too, but damn they are useless to the plot right now. When Android 18 offered to go but Kuririn said no I was like "wtf?? she is much stronger than him and tenshinhan together..."

I fear that the way the story is being told has to do with the fact that it's shown on Sunday mornings. Clearly it's for a younger audience.

I think the entire point of the ROF arc was because the Freeza arc was where it was supposed to end, but because of the demand for more Jump talked Toriyama into continuing the story. I also heard that Cell was never a thing, but rather 16-18 was supposed to be the main villains but Toriyama was told that the main villain needs to be vicious looking like Freeza. I don't remember where I read all of this but i'm pretty sure it was told by Toriyama's editor in a recent interview who was with him through the running of the Dragon Ball manga. Anyways, after continuing the series yet again after the Cell arc, that's when the SSJ3 design came into play as he wanted it to be and look like the end all be all transformation. In other words the final arc and end of the Dragon Ball series and after it was finished I believe said he couldn't do it anymore. I Agree with you that it doesn't feel anything like DBZ and that the new Super Saiyan designs are a bit "off" or repetitive. I've said it from the begging that the red haired "SSG" should have been Saiyan God, and the blue one Super Saiyan God. I think Super Saiyan Blue is the last recolor transformation we will get, I think if there is a next one it will be completely different. At least I hope....

19 and 20 were supposed to be the main villains for the entire arc but Toriyama's editor at the time complained so Toriyama brought in 17 and 18. The editor kept complaining about the villain designs until Toriyama came up with Cell's perfect form.

Amazing that you guys brought up the thing about it originally being the Androids and not Cell as the main villain! I think I remember hearing about that!! I know it's hindsight, but I'm glad he did though - the androids were pretty cool, but the story he came up with about Cell was also pretty effing awesome!! It was really creative and exciting... For me DBZ could've ended after Cell tbh.

At the DBZ ending it seemed pretty clear that that was the end of it all. I love the look of the SSJ3 and how he can't use it for too long (as far as I remember). I was a bit disappointed that there was no big deal surrounding Goku's transformation - like when he first became SSJ and when Gohan first became SSJ2.. but then again, that might've been too repetitive. It would've been better to call it Sayan God indeed, if he was planning to come up with something even higher. But honestly, at the moment he got called Sayan GOD, I can only take his future opponents seriously if they are gods too, or gods' personal trainers like Whis . Like, maybe he should fight the gods from different universes and stuff. But it's not even about the fights (you can't make them much bigger than the one against Beerus), but the story, the plot, the build-up, the tension.. that's what's missing!

I do hope there is another transformation that takes that cheap Blue look away . I remember back in the days there were some pretty cool fanmade designs...

Oh, trust me, you're not alone in the way you're thinking. There are plenty of us in the fandom (myself included) who are very dissatisfied with the direction this franchise is taking but unfortunately... it seems our complaints are falling on deaf ears. Despite what the apologist fans might say, I still think the story and characters have suffered a lot since ROF, BOG wasn't so bad (especially since it left plenty of room to grow) but ROF took it to a level of crazy that I just can't bring myself to get behind. I'm still amazed that a franchise as beloved as Dragonball was allowed to be steered in such a strange direction, it makes me wonder if Toei even bothers with quality control.

I think it's going to take a miracle for the final arc to undo what's been done so far. I'm admittedly not very optimistic at this point but I will stick around to see how this trainwreck ends.

Exactly - what's up with Toei?? I mean, seriously, is no one seeing what's happening? If so many of us are dissatisfied with what's happening, I'm pretty sure a bunch of fans in Japan and a bunch of people who perhaps can make themselves heard are also complaining. Toriyama: wake the hell up !! Seriously, DBGT is great compared to what's happening now. The series version of BoG and what came after could've been so amazing. I'm like you: I will stick around. I'm too much of a fan to just ignore it... but I think it'll suck.

I agree with ALL ur points mate

I never liked Freeza in da 1st place. His ressurection & asspull for him rivallin Goku & Vegeta was ugh....

His Golden form has also paved way for trolls like "whats next? Platinum Cell. Diamond Buu?"

DBZ's iconic episodes usually have superb direction/screen-writing. Ep 229 for instance. Drama & tension revolving Goku & Majin Vegeta's destined match with various subplots (Goku threathening Kaioshin, Vegeta defyin Babidi, Gohan's guilt over spoiling his Dad's precious day-off on Earth). Just wow!

Compared to THAT, Supa isnt worth Kaioshin's poop

It really makes me happy to know that I am not alone in this. I don't even know if my old friends, who used to watch DBZ with me back in the day are at all interested in DBS, so I don't have anyone to personally talk to about this

Totally agree with you, he might as well bring platinum cell and diamond buu lol.

Great example of how DBZ was great. The only time DBS got interesting so far was when Goku arrived at Beeru's planet. I was like "YES! NOW it's on!!" And then it seemed like he just changed his mind and brought Goku back so quickly. But of course, how could he not? Freeza arrived super quickly, and there was nothing to do but fight - and that's what's so poor about it. And then the sidetalks between Bulma and that little dude with the cameras are just pointless. I also feel sorry for what they are doing to Vegeta. He watches Goku fighting Beeru and now Freeza (ok, like I said, I chose not to see the RoF movie so that I could try to enjoy the series, so I don't know what he'll do, but as of now, damn he must feel useless!)

[Luso Saiyan]

I also heard that Cell was never a thing, but rather 16-18 was supposed to be the main villains but Toriyama was told that the main villain needs to be vicious looking like Freeza. I don't remember where I read all of this but i'm pretty sure it was told by Toriyama's editor in a recent interview who was with him through the running of the Dragon Ball manga.

Because there is a site too: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/cell/

[Xeztin]

I also heard that Cell was never a thing, but rather 16-18 was supposed to be the main villains but Toriyama was told that the main villain needs to be vicious looking like Freeza. I don't remember where I read all of this but i'm pretty sure it was told by Toriyama's editor in a recent interview who was with him through the running of the Dragon Ball manga.

Because there is a site too: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/cell/

I'm honestly not sure how to take the "Because there is a site too" remark but if its to imply some sort of smart-assery know it all type of thing then to simply put it, I don't research every bit of info and if you do that is perfectly fine. I don't expect people to know everything about Dragon Ball, how to pronounce "Saiyans" or anything for that matter but if you do again its fine, but it does not make one better than another. I remember reading that interview else wheres, and to be honest I didn't think about that particular section at the time. No need to be a smart aleck about it as your late to the punchline anyways as Ringworm128 already corrected my statement and I apologized... Yes you can correct someone while being polite at the same time just as Ringworm128 did.

[Soppa Saia People]

I also heard that Cell was never a thing, but rather 16-18 was supposed to be the main villains but Toriyama was told that the main villain needs to be vicious looking like Freeza. I don't remember where I read all of this but i'm pretty sure it was told by Toriyama's editor in a recent interview who was with him through the running of the Dragon Ball manga.

Because there is a site too: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/cell/

I'm honestly not sure how to take the "Because there is a site too" remark but if its to imply some sort of smart-assery know it all type of thing then to simply put it, I don't research every bit of info and if you do that is perfectly fine. I don't expect people to know everything about Dragon Ball, how to pronounce "Saiyans" or anything for that matter but if you do again its fine, but it does not make one better than another. I remember reading that interview else wheres, and to be honest I didn't think about that particular section at the time. No need to be a smart aleck about it as your late to the punchline anyways as Ringworm128 already corrected my statement and I apologized... Yes you can correct someone while being polite at the same time just as Ringworm128 did.

You're on kanzenshuu already it's not going talk long.

[Xeztin]

You're on kanzenshuu already it's not going talk long.

As I said I did not think about that particular section at the time, it was the furthest thing from my mind as I was recalling the article itself from another site. If it really grinds your gears that badly, then you can simply direct said person to said page as you have already done above ^ without being a smart ass. People like that need to get over themselves. Attitudes of that nature will always turn away new comers to the franchise as you expect them to know and be aware of everything when they just discovered Dragon Ball. Now I really do not want to derail this thread so I will leave it at that, apologies Imtoooldforthis