Most Fitting End

[ABED]

He abandons Goten and Chichi second time as soon as strong Uub appears becuase he can't train him at home for no reason, so yeah.

#VegetaAndPiccoloBetterFathers

He didn't abandon Goten the first time, he never knew Chichi was pregnant. Vegeta's a great father? Sure, if hitting your child out of frustration or only showing affection once in one's life is considered good parenting then sure, he's a great parent.

Goku - It's a filler episode but the one where all of his friends and family listen to Goku tell them a story is a nice low key ending.
Gohan - Becoming a scholar and maybe even teaching martial arts as well. He can do both. I get the impression that while he's not a warrior at heart, he does enjoy martial arts. I think teaching fits his character well.
Vegeta - I wish Vegeta hadn't been revived by the Namekian DB's in the Buu arc. His arc was complete, saying he was a good guy is stretching it. Coming back to help fight Kid Buu but staying dead is a fitting ending for him.

[Basaku]

He didn't abandon Goten the first time, he never knew Chichi was pregnant. Vegeta's a great father? Sure, if hitting your child out of frustration or only showing affection once in one's life is considered good parenting then sure, he's a great parent.

I was sarcastic Doesn't change the fact that Goku ain't father-of-the-year material and the ending the series on a 'abandons family again' note, this time with 10 times worse explanation, is really not a good move.

As for 'not second time' ye it was second time, Gohan was still a kid and Chi-Chi was still his wife c'mon. But at least back in Cell arc the excuse seemed at least sorta noble - he didn't want to endanger the entire planet. EOZ explanation tho...

[TheUltimateVegito]

The Android arcs connection with the RRA is completely forced by virtue of the RRA being completely incompetent jokes for the most part as we see them in the RRA arc. Nor do they have any real importance to Goku as a character in the arc he dismantles them in. For most of it, they're just jackasses who happen to get in his way until he decides to take them out just for the sake of resurrecting Bora.

It's a forced, totally unbelievable connection that does nothing for Goku as a character besides being a callback to the past. It's like if they did a sequel to Whacky Races where Dick Dasterdly's apprentice or whatever acted and did Hannibal Lecter-ish things without any censoring. I can't buy that the same organization that hired a dumbass like Murasaki can produce something like Cell without anything to show a transition.

Neither he nor Gohan do anything of value in the actual Android arc either. Goku's out of it completely until the Cell Games and Gohan is little more than another source of background noise during conversations. Nothing that happens to either of them until the very end even remotely hints at "This is Goku passing his job to Gohan". I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all but the way fans overblow it as something that's deeply planned out and woven into everything just boggles my mind, especially considering how much of a badly written mess the Android arc is.

As for my coincidences line, Goku says he attracts danger but really, most of the shit that happens to Earth would've happened regardless of if he was there. The RRA still would've existed and likely have succeeded in taking over the Earth. Piccolo would've come about regardless, Freeza and the Saiyan's already know about Earth so it would get attacked by one or the other or both eventually. Goku just happens to get involved in all this stuff, wrongly thinking it's his fault when it's not, he just gets caught up in it, the universe doesn't just magically fart out villains to attack him and the Earth just because there must exist some cosmic counter-balance to Goku's pure-heartedness.

RRA was the most feared army in the globe. Their comedic elements didn't really dampened but only made them more interesting. Murasaki only looked like a chump because of how stronger Goku is. They're suppose to be dismantled like that by Goku hence why Dr.Gero was determined to have revenge on Goku alone. It was completely believable and was a testament for Goku and the series' growth to that point and emphasized the idea of the story coming full circle.

Goku lack of involvement in the arc was also a testament of the idea that Goku is no longer needed on earth. Imagine if Goku defeated everyone all fine and dandy on his own then ended up saying the earth doesn't need him? The fact that he didn't even win a match in the arc emphasizes the idea that Goku's time on earth is up. And like I said before, it gave the feeling of saving the best for last with Gohan. Gohan did show greater composure and maturity than the previous arcs which showed how he developed from the previous arcs i.e able to sense and save Piccolo before Gero killed him.

When Goku and Gohan entered the Time Chamber Goku said it himself that he plans on making Gohan stronger than himself, from then on build up for the torch being passed intensified but was more subtle than say the Super Saiyan build up in the Namek arc. There were also multiple hints at Goku making his decision at the end. i.e Goku appearing to be contemplating after waking up from the heart virus. Not to mention the build up during the ten days of the Cell Games and how History of Trunks chapter added to the build up.

Whether or not the earth would've been better if he wasn't there since he was a baby isn't the idea, the idea is that Goku calculated that the future of earth would be better without him by the time of the Cell arc. But to go deeper into Goku attracting bad guys:

The fact is these bad guys came from a variety of different sources which Goku could not have predicted:

Master Shen came from the Crane Hermit school, who wanted revenge on Goku for killing Tao. Goku could not have predicted this.

King Piccolo was freed by Emperor Pilaf, who Goku defeated in the RRA arc, which Goku could not have predicted. Meaning, it's likely that King Piccolo possibly wouldn't have been freed if Goku didn't encounter pilaf.

Goku predicted Piccolo Jr, but only because Kami told him about it. His main objective was still to get revenge on Goku.

The Saiyans are aliens. Goku could not have predicted them coming and they sorely came to earth because of Goku. Goku himself attracted the Saiyans who are completely different from the other bad guys Goku was attracting and came only to recruit Goku because they needed to take over another planet, not because they were planning on retrieving Goku or cared much about taking over earth.

Freeza and King Cold came to earth to get revenge on Goku. Goku might have predicted Freeza but he couldn't have predicted King Cold (Who was more powerful than Freeza, btw)

And yeah, it does seem deeply planned out and woven into everything when you think about it:

By this point, not only all the main casts character arcs were concluded, but he was actually no longer needed on earth. Gohan was now far better than him (And Goku was responsible for him unleashing his full potential) and was the key reason why the Z-Fighters are now more in sync.

Vegeta developed to give up fighting because of Goku's death. Vegeta giving up could have been viewed as him becoming good, since Goku died his pride died with him at that moment. He's a literal example of someone who Goku staying dead stopped from being a threat.

Goku's decision reflects on all aspect of his character, as well as his life journey up to this point. Now, some may argue that something like that is unlikely to happen again and that the bad guys weren't only after Goku, but that's missing the point. This is suppose to be how it affected Goku, and seeing things from his perspective. The bad guys were still attracted to Goku and by the Android saga there was a whole universe of possibilities. Keep in mind that Goku could not have predicted the Saiyans and King Cold coming to earth because of him as well as the Androids, who were very illusive (couldn't be sensed, came from secret lab, spied on Goku for years). The Androids were key because they were the biggest threat and were created solely to kill Goku (And did in alternate timelines), which impacted his decision the most. It was like everything before that was leading up and connected to this. It also satisfied Goku's love for fighting, as the otherworld is full of powerful opponents who should be around Goku's strength (If we go by the manga) as they must've trained for millenniums. This is where the genius goes even further, when you think about it, satisfying Goku's love for battle like this could further protect the earth, as he tends to let opponents arrive at their best whether or not it's the right thing to do, due to his Saiyan blood. Him no longer being alive eliminates the chance of this happening. This wouldn't have been possible if King Kai and the Saiyans weren't introduced in the Saiyan arc, as well as Goku learning instant Transmissions which furthered how planned out this all seems.

Krillin believed they should let a common enemy strengthen the alliances between the Z-fighters because of Vegeta being around, but now Vegeta's pride is shattered there'll be no need for that. This was a result of the majority of the Z-Fighters once being enemies of Goku, which furthered the idea that everything up to that point was deeply connected. Because with Goku's death there's no one among the Z-Fighters who would willingly put the earth in danger, which is freakin' genius.

The comedic elements of the RRA make the connection forced, not believable or interesting. I cannot buy that an organization which is almost exclusively made up of incompetent chumps comes back on the form of a mad scientist who kidnaps and performs forced cyber augmentation on people or creates murder bots. It doesn't work because, unlike with the rest of the series where we see how things evolve, the RRA go from being cartoon villains into something else entirely with no transition.

Goku not winning any battle means nothing in the arc except a contrivance for Toriyama to take Goku out of the story which is trite and cliche by this point as he's already ran it into the ground by doing it several times in just two arcs beforehand. I also wouldn't look too closely at Goku's inability to win as indication of anything, Toriyama's a lot more okay with having Goku lose than most other writers, its just another one of the beats he's just repeating because he's running on fumes by this point in the process. Also, Gohan saved Piccolo before and wasn't crying or running away like when he fought Nappa.

Goku wasn't contemplating how Gohan will take over, he's contemplating about what it'll take to take out the Androids. Goku is repeatedly shown to be a very short sighted moron who doesn't really grasp the greater depth behind anything he does or thinks about. When he woke up and stood there, he decided to use the ROSAT, not think about the future.

As for the villains: Either Pilaf or Piccolo take over the world either of which would've happened regardless if Goku was there. The RRA was also already hunting for the DBs so they would have also taken over and been a threat regardless of Goku, Freeza's Empire already knows about Earth so they would've come there eventually regardless of Goku existed. Its coincidences that Goku is taking as his own fault because he's a moron who's mentally incapable of thinking anything through right.

The Androids do little to reflect anything in Goku as a character, his development ended on Namek where he accepted he's a Saiyan, everything he's done afterward is little more than the selfish pursuit of appeasing his fighting boner everything else be damned. The things you list like how the Androids were elusive exist only as more devices so a plot that's already gone on way past the logical point of "use DBs, kill Gero immediately" can just keep going and going and going with more OOC moments and contrivances.

And Krillin's whole comment about letting a common threat emerge just to hopefully convert Vegeta is, once again, Toriyama looking for an excuse to justify Goku & Vegeta's horrible decision to advance the plot and make Bulma's (logical) advice seem dumb. They shouldn't need or care about Vegeta, Goku's a Super Saiyan who can take out Vegeta at a moments notice. And if they did battle and if Vegeta somehow won, the Namekian Dragon Balls and a little Other World training would instantly bring Goku back. They have no reason to want the goddamn apocalypse to almost happen just to hopefully convert Vegeta.

Are you telling me even after seeing Android 8 in Dragon Ball, you wouldn't think Dr. Gero was working for them at the time?

It was a great way to put Goku in the sidelines and giving him a reason to reflect on his past after having the virus. It furthered the idea of if Goku was needed because Bulma believed that the reason why they lost was because Goku wasn't there to save them. Gohan didn't need to sense to save Piccolo last time.

Well that just shows how much the events of the saga impacted him. Deciding to use the ROSAT was part of how he was thinking of the future.

You should re-read my post again. They all were attracted to Goku in ways he couldn't have predicted and it only takes one threat to ruin everything hence why whether or not the earth would've been better if Goku helped it doesn't really matter. It's about seeing things from his perspective whether or not you agree with his decision.

Him staying dead reflected everything about his character including him accepting himself as a Saiyan for reasons I've already mentioned. Remember in the Saiyan arc when Krillin was sure that Vegeta would never change even though Piccolo did? Now this same Vegeta is hanging out on earth without harming anyone for a year and even helped wished Goku back, the Z-Fighters bond strengthened due to them having common enemies and Krillin believed that Vegeta would become a better ally like Piccolo did if they face another common threat. He believes Vegeta would be more likely to do something evil if they don't. Also, he respects Goku's desire to fight stronger opponents which factored in his decision.

Also, Planet Namek can also be destroyed which would render the Namekian Dragon Balls useless. Vegeta (Or anyone) could form a plan to do such a thing.

[ekrolo2]

RRA was the most feared army in the globe. Their comedic elements didn't really dampened but only made them more interesting. Murasaki only looked like a chump because of how stronger Goku is. They're suppose to be dismantled like that by Goku hence why Dr.Gero was determined to have revenge on Goku alone. It was completely believable and was a testament for Goku and the series' growth to that point and emphasized the idea of the story coming full circle.

Goku lack of involvement in the arc was also a testament of the idea that Goku is no longer needed on earth. Imagine if Goku defeated everyone all fine and dandy on his own then ended up saying the earth doesn't need him? The fact that he didn't even win a match in the arc emphasizes the idea that Goku's time on earth is up. And like I said before, it gave the feeling of saving the best for last with Gohan. Gohan did show greater composure and maturity than the previous arcs which showed how he developed from the previous arcs i.e able to sense and save Piccolo before Gero killed him.

When Goku and Gohan entered the Time Chamber Goku said it himself that he plans on making Gohan stronger than himself, from then on build up for the torch being passed intensified but was more subtle than say the Super Saiyan build up in the Namek arc. There were also multiple hints at Goku making his decision at the end. i.e Goku appearing to be contemplating after waking up from the heart virus. Not to mention the build up during the ten days of the Cell Games and how History of Trunks chapter added to the build up.

Whether or not the earth would've been better if he wasn't there since he was a baby isn't the idea, the idea is that Goku calculated that the future of earth would be better without him by the time of the Cell arc. But to go deeper into Goku attracting bad guys:

The fact is these bad guys came from a variety of different sources which Goku could not have predicted:

Master Shen came from the Crane Hermit school, who wanted revenge on Goku for killing Tao. Goku could not have predicted this.

King Piccolo was freed by Emperor Pilaf, who Goku defeated in the RRA arc, which Goku could not have predicted. Meaning, it's likely that King Piccolo possibly wouldn't have been freed if Goku didn't encounter pilaf.

Goku predicted Piccolo Jr, but only because Kami told him about it. His main objective was still to get revenge on Goku.

The Saiyans are aliens. Goku could not have predicted them coming and they sorely came to earth because of Goku. Goku himself attracted the Saiyans who are completely different from the other bad guys Goku was attracting and came only to recruit Goku because they needed to take over another planet, not because they were planning on retrieving Goku or cared much about taking over earth.

Freeza and King Cold came to earth to get revenge on Goku. Goku might have predicted Freeza but he couldn't have predicted King Cold (Who was more powerful than Freeza, btw)

And yeah, it does seem deeply planned out and woven into everything when you think about it:

By this point, not only all the main casts character arcs were concluded, but he was actually no longer needed on earth. Gohan was now far better than him (And Goku was responsible for him unleashing his full potential) and was the key reason why the Z-Fighters are now more in sync.

Vegeta developed to give up fighting because of Goku's death. Vegeta giving up could have been viewed as him becoming good, since Goku died his pride died with him at that moment. He's a literal example of someone who Goku staying dead stopped from being a threat.

Goku's decision reflects on all aspect of his character, as well as his life journey up to this point. Now, some may argue that something like that is unlikely to happen again and that the bad guys weren't only after Goku, but that's missing the point. This is suppose to be how it affected Goku, and seeing things from his perspective. The bad guys were still attracted to Goku and by the Android saga there was a whole universe of possibilities. Keep in mind that Goku could not have predicted the Saiyans and King Cold coming to earth because of him as well as the Androids, who were very illusive (couldn't be sensed, came from secret lab, spied on Goku for years). The Androids were key because they were the biggest threat and were created solely to kill Goku (And did in alternate timelines), which impacted his decision the most. It was like everything before that was leading up and connected to this. It also satisfied Goku's love for fighting, as the otherworld is full of powerful opponents who should be around Goku's strength (If we go by the manga) as they must've trained for millenniums. This is where the genius goes even further, when you think about it, satisfying Goku's love for battle like this could further protect the earth, as he tends to let opponents arrive at their best whether or not it's the right thing to do, due to his Saiyan blood. Him no longer being alive eliminates the chance of this happening. This wouldn't have been possible if King Kai and the Saiyans weren't introduced in the Saiyan arc, as well as Goku learning instant Transmissions which furthered how planned out this all seems.

Krillin believed they should let a common enemy strengthen the alliances between the Z-fighters because of Vegeta being around, but now Vegeta's pride is shattered there'll be no need for that. This was a result of the majority of the Z-Fighters once being enemies of Goku, which furthered the idea that everything up to that point was deeply connected. Because with Goku's death there's no one among the Z-Fighters who would willingly put the earth in danger, which is freakin' genius.

The comedic elements of the RRA make the connection forced, not believable or interesting. I cannot buy that an organization which is almost exclusively made up of incompetent chumps comes back on the form of a mad scientist who kidnaps and performs forced cyber augmentation on people or creates murder bots. It doesn't work because, unlike with the rest of the series where we see how things evolve, the RRA go from being cartoon villains into something else entirely with no transition.

Goku not winning any battle means nothing in the arc except a contrivance for Toriyama to take Goku out of the story which is trite and cliche by this point as he's already ran it into the ground by doing it several times in just two arcs beforehand. I also wouldn't look too closely at Goku's inability to win as indication of anything, Toriyama's a lot more okay with having Goku lose than most other writers, its just another one of the beats he's just repeating because he's running on fumes by this point in the process. Also, Gohan saved Piccolo before and wasn't crying or running away like when he fought Nappa.

Goku wasn't contemplating how Gohan will take over, he's contemplating about what it'll take to take out the Androids. Goku is repeatedly shown to be a very short sighted moron who doesn't really grasp the greater depth behind anything he does or thinks about. When he woke up and stood there, he decided to use the ROSAT, not think about the future.

As for the villains: Either Pilaf or Piccolo take over the world either of which would've happened regardless if Goku was there. The RRA was also already hunting for the DBs so they would have also taken over and been a threat regardless of Goku, Freeza's Empire already knows about Earth so they would've come there eventually regardless of Goku existed. Its coincidences that Goku is taking as his own fault because he's a moron who's mentally incapable of thinking anything through right.

The Androids do little to reflect anything in Goku as a character, his development ended on Namek where he accepted he's a Saiyan, everything he's done afterward is little more than the selfish pursuit of appeasing his fighting boner everything else be damned. The things you list like how the Androids were elusive exist only as more devices so a plot that's already gone on way past the logical point of "use DBs, kill Gero immediately" can just keep going and going and going with more OOC moments and contrivances.

And Krillin's whole comment about letting a common threat emerge just to hopefully convert Vegeta is, once again, Toriyama looking for an excuse to justify Goku & Vegeta's horrible decision to advance the plot and make Bulma's (logical) advice seem dumb. They shouldn't need or care about Vegeta, Goku's a Super Saiyan who can take out Vegeta at a moments notice. And if they did battle and if Vegeta somehow won, the Namekian Dragon Balls and a little Other World training would instantly bring Goku back. They have no reason to want the goddamn apocalypse to almost happen just to hopefully convert Vegeta.

Are you telling me even after seeing Android 8 in Dragon Ball, you wouldn't think Dr. Gero was working for them at the time?

It was a great way to put Goku in the sidelines and giving him a reason to reflect on his past after having the virus. It furthered the idea of if Goku was needed because Bulma believed that the reason why they lost was because Goku wasn't there to save them. Gohan didn't need to sense to save Piccolo last time.

Well that just shows how much the events of the saga impacted him. Deciding to use the ROSAT was part of how he was thinking of the future.

You should re-read my post again. They all were attracted to Goku in ways he couldn't have predicted and it only takes one threat to ruin everything hence why whether or not the earth would've been better if Goku helped it doesn't really matter. It's about seeing things from his perspective whether or not you agree with his decision.

Him staying dead reflected everything about his character including him accepting himself as a Saiyan for reasons I've already mentioned. Remember in the Saiyan arc when Krillin was sure that Vegeta would never change even though Piccolo did? Now this same Vegeta is hanging out on earth without harming anyone for a year and even helped wished Goku back, the Z-Fighters bond strengthened due to them having common enemies and Krillin believed that Vegeta would become a better ally like Piccolo did if they face another common threat. He believes Vegeta would be more likely to do something evil if they don't. Also, he respects Goku's desire to fight stronger opponents which factored in his decision.

The idea of a man making Androids for an army isn't far fetched, the problem is that there's no transition between bumbling army of idiots and insane, revenge obsessed megalomaniac who abducts people and forces cyborg augmentation on them. Its like if the Freeza saga came right after the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc. Its jarring, its not believable in the least and the RRA don't impact Goku or matter enough to him for me to buy it as anything but Toriyama trying to make a callback to DB. Hell, by the time its almost over I forget that it has anything to do with the RRA until SPC mentions Gero.

Future Bulma thinking they lose because there's no Goku is just Toriyama trying to make a smart characters decision seem stupid by saying "Shonen law is king, therefore you abide by it or shut up". Nor do I think Goku reflects on anything besides hows he gonna beat the Androids. This is the same guy who decides its not nice to kill the guy who starts the apocalypse because.... he hasn't done anything wrong? Nope, Goku is ffffaarrrr too stupid and selfish for me to buy that the virus was anything but an inconvenience for him and a contrivance to get him out of the story again.

I see things from Goku's perspective fine, but it doesn't make sense to me. The way he's saying it makes it sound like he's blaming himself for these guys doing anything, like they wouldn't exist or threaten the planet at all if he didn't. Now sure, Piccolo might've stayed away and lets say Vegeta & or Freeza never came to conquer Earth as is their job, that still leaves Pilaf and the RRA. Both of whom want world domination, well Red wants to get taller but fat chance Black would've let him live if they actually summoned Shenron to waste a wish like that. I get what he's saying, it just doesn't make sense to me. Its like someone being at the site of five car crashes then blaming himself for them happening when all he did was be there.

As for the Krillin thing, maybe this is just a Viz mistranslation but Krillin is directly implying something totally else. He isn't saying "Lets do this so we can work together and convert Vegeta to our side" he's saying "Without a common enemy, who knows what Vegeta would do, talk about scary" which is a stupid way to reason Goku's equally stupid choice anyhow. Vegeta cannot do jack to Goku, sure he can train to beat him but so will Goku, all Bulma has to do is give him a gravity chamber of his own and he'll leave Vegeta eternally in the dust. Or simply use the Dragon Balls on Namek to wish Goku back should Vegeta somehow prevail, Vegeta is a total non-issue.

If Toriyama actually had characters remember and react to what happened to them the last time they got involved with insane, planet destroying maniacs (almost or in the case of everyone bug Gohan DIED!) they'd summon Shenron, ask him to see what Gero is like, see his a bastard then wait a year to kill him. This is nothing but Toriyama writing everyone as willfully ignorant morons not to push a development for Goku or a thematic through-line but because he cannot be arsed to stop for a second and actually think through what the hell he's doing.

[TheUltimateVegito]

The idea of a man making Androids for an army isn't far fetched, the problem is that there's no transition between bumbling army of idiots and insane, revenge obsessed megalomaniac who abducts people and forces cyborg augmentation on them. Its like if the Freeza saga came right after the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc. Its jarring, its not believable in the least and the RRA don't impact Goku or matter enough to him for me to buy it as anything but Toriyama trying to make a callback to DB. Hell, by the time its almost over I forget that it has anything to do with the RRA until SPC mentions Gero.

Future Bulma thinking they lose because there's no Goku is just Toriyama trying to make a smart characters decision seem stupid by saying "Shonen law is king, therefore you abide by it or shut up". Nor do I think Goku reflects on anything besides hows he gonna beat the Androids. This is the same guy who decides its not nice to kill the guy who starts the apocalypse because.... he hasn't done anything wrong? Nope, Goku is ffffaarrrr too stupid and selfish for me to buy that the virus was anything but an inconvenience for him and a contrivance to get him out of the story again.

I see things from Goku's perspective fine, but it doesn't make sense to me. The way he's saying it makes it sound like he's blaming himself for these guys doing anything, like they wouldn't exist or threaten the planet at all if he didn't. Now sure, Piccolo might've stayed away and lets say Vegeta & or Freeza never came to conquer Earth as is their job, that still leaves Pilaf and the RRA. Both of whom want world domination, well Red wants to get taller but fat chance Black would've let him live if they actually summoned Shenron to waste a wish like that. I get what he's saying, it just doesn't make sense to me. Its like someone being at the site of five car crashes then blaming himself for them happening when all he did was be there.

As for the Krillin thing, maybe this is just a Viz mistranslation but Krillin is directly implying something totally else. He isn't saying "Lets do this so we can work together and convert Vegeta to our side" he's saying "Without a common enemy, who knows what Vegeta would do, talk about scary" which is a stupid way to reason Goku's equally stupid choice anyhow. Vegeta cannot do jack to Goku, sure he can train to beat him but so will Goku, all Bulma has to do is give him a gravity chamber of his own and he'll leave Vegeta eternally in the dust. Or simply use the Dragon Balls on Namek to wish Goku back should Vegeta somehow prevail, Vegeta is a total non-issue.

If Toriyama actually had characters remember and react to what happened to them the last time they got involved with insane, planet destroying maniacs (almost or in the case of everyone bug Gohan DIED!) they'd summon Shenron, ask him to see what Gero is like, see his a bastard then wait a year to kill him. This is nothing but Toriyama writing everyone as willfully ignorant morons not to push a development for Goku or a thematic through-line but because he cannot be arsed to stop for a second and actually think through what the hell he's doing.

RRA literally made Goku weighed the responsibility of protecting others, and the Androids made him weigh the responsibility even more. That in itself is the perfect transition without needed to mention them until the Androids being revealed.

Gero not doing anything wrong was part of his reason, but his main reason was he wanted to fight the Androids, that never changed even after his change when he woke up from the heart virus.

Goku is blaming himself because of the danger they bring for the earth's future. Goku evaluated the fact that he's constantly attracting threats throughout his life, and he believes it'd be less likely not impossible for another threat to happen once he leaves. If he thought it was impossible then he wouldn't have needed to pass the torch to Gohan.

We totally need a more accurate translation but I've seen a few translations and they emphasized the whole uniting everyone angle of it. Either way, it's pretty much the same thing. Krillin wants a common enemy to keep Vegeta in line, meaning that he thinks Vegeta would become better if they unite against a common enemy, the Krillin of the Saiyan arc wouldn't have done this. Meaning he grew to realize having a common enemy bonds the Z-Fighters together which was a result of his experiences.

They're all fully aware of the risks, I don't think them remembering what happened before would change anything. Besides, like I said, it was Goku and Vegeta who were the catalyst for the Z-Fighters letting the Androids activate and Goku himself eliminated the chance of that happening in the future by remembering what happened.

[The Patrolman]

I think the EOZ is perfect. Goku stepping out of the student and is now the master is something that is more fitting than the torching passing from father to son. Since in my opinion Gohan would be a mediocre main character. And to all the people who are complaining about this. So you mean to tell me you have a problem with the same Goku, who let Vegeta go whom at the time was a murderous bastard just so he fight him again, gave Freeza energy after he killed his BEST FRIEND, let the Androids come instead doing Bulma's plan, let his 9 or 11 (please tell me what his age was) fight this evil monster while at the expense of giving Cell a senzu bean, and was going to kill Supreme Kai if he didn't get his way on fighting Majin Vegeta, is NOW going to be condemned on leaving his family after spending TEN YEARS with them and promised he will visit them. Which I have proof he did since in the final chapter of the Neko Majin manga, Goku taking Neko to his house just to get rid of a mouse. Goku is a type of guy who does stuff on his own will and doesn't give a damn what people think.

[Cipher]

While I can see the arguments for the Cell arc doing a bit of work to resolve the series' arcs, the reason I greatly prefer the Boo arc to it as an ending, and this is somewhat subjective, is that it's just more fitting tonally. Not only is it a better holistic representation of the series (the Cell arc, while still a little whimsical, is just about the height of the series' self-seriousness), it's so wild and the universe is so rapidly expanded that there's a general feeling of shit hitting the fan faster and in more insane ways than the characters can keep up with. This amidst the endgame character work it's doing. And that just feels like the perfect way to go out, before the (equally fitting, in the way it ties into the arc) epilogue.

Like, I know Toriyama was writing it by the seat of his pants, but somehow that's perfect for Dragon Ball. It deserves to go out on an insane bang. Hopefully Super's final arc manages to be as bombastic.

[ekrolo2]

The idea of a man making Androids for an army isn't far fetched, the problem is that there's no transition between bumbling army of idiots and insane, revenge obsessed megalomaniac who abducts people and forces cyborg augmentation on them. Its like if the Freeza saga came right after the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc. Its jarring, its not believable in the least and the RRA don't impact Goku or matter enough to him for me to buy it as anything but Toriyama trying to make a callback to DB. Hell, by the time its almost over I forget that it has anything to do with the RRA until SPC mentions Gero.

Future Bulma thinking they lose because there's no Goku is just Toriyama trying to make a smart characters decision seem stupid by saying "Shonen law is king, therefore you abide by it or shut up". Nor do I think Goku reflects on anything besides hows he gonna beat the Androids. This is the same guy who decides its not nice to kill the guy who starts the apocalypse because.... he hasn't done anything wrong? Nope, Goku is ffffaarrrr too stupid and selfish for me to buy that the virus was anything but an inconvenience for him and a contrivance to get him out of the story again.

I see things from Goku's perspective fine, but it doesn't make sense to me. The way he's saying it makes it sound like he's blaming himself for these guys doing anything, like they wouldn't exist or threaten the planet at all if he didn't. Now sure, Piccolo might've stayed away and lets say Vegeta & or Freeza never came to conquer Earth as is their job, that still leaves Pilaf and the RRA. Both of whom want world domination, well Red wants to get taller but fat chance Black would've let him live if they actually summoned Shenron to waste a wish like that. I get what he's saying, it just doesn't make sense to me. Its like someone being at the site of five car crashes then blaming himself for them happening when all he did was be there.

As for the Krillin thing, maybe this is just a Viz mistranslation but Krillin is directly implying something totally else. He isn't saying "Lets do this so we can work together and convert Vegeta to our side" he's saying "Without a common enemy, who knows what Vegeta would do, talk about scary" which is a stupid way to reason Goku's equally stupid choice anyhow. Vegeta cannot do jack to Goku, sure he can train to beat him but so will Goku, all Bulma has to do is give him a gravity chamber of his own and he'll leave Vegeta eternally in the dust. Or simply use the Dragon Balls on Namek to wish Goku back should Vegeta somehow prevail, Vegeta is a total non-issue.

If Toriyama actually had characters remember and react to what happened to them the last time they got involved with insane, planet destroying maniacs (almost or in the case of everyone bug Gohan DIED!) they'd summon Shenron, ask him to see what Gero is like, see his a bastard then wait a year to kill him. This is nothing but Toriyama writing everyone as willfully ignorant morons not to push a development for Goku or a thematic through-line but because he cannot be arsed to stop for a second and actually think through what the hell he's doing.

RRA literally made Goku weighed the responsibility of protecting others, and the Androids made him weigh the responsibility even more. That in itself is the perfect transition without needed to mention them until the Androids being revealed.

Gero not doing anything wrong was part of his reason, but his main reason was he wanted to fight the Androids, that never changed even after his change when he woke up from the heart virus.

Goku is blaming himself because of the danger they bring for the earth's future. Goku evaluated the fact that he's constantly attracting threats throughout his life, and he believes it'd be less likely not impossible for another threat to happen once he leaves. If he thought it was impossible then he wouldn't have needed to pass the torch to Gohan.

We totally need a more accurate translation but I've seen a few translations and they emphasized the whole uniting everyone angle of it. Either way, it's pretty much the same thing. Krillin wants a common enemy to keep Vegeta in line, meaning that he thinks Vegeta would become better if they unite against a common enemy, the Krillin of the Saiyan arc wouldn't have done this. Meaning he grew to realize having a common enemy bonds the Z-Fighters together which was a result of his experiences.

They're all fully aware of the risks, I don't think them remembering what happened before would change anything. Besides, like I said, it was Goku and Vegeta who were the catalyst for the Z-Fighters letting the Androids activate and Goku himself eliminated the chance of that happening in the future by remembering what happened.

I would buy the RRA showing Goku the importance of protecting others if almost every instance of it later on wasn't primarily fueled by Goku's selfish desires first and protecting others & saving the world a distant second. Why does he go after Piccolo? For revenge. Why does he let Jr go? Because he's the only one left to fight him? Why does he let Vegeta go? Because he wants to fight him. Why does he let the Androids come? Because he wants to fight them. At least with Jr he has somewhat of an excuse for wanting the DBs to stay but with the Androids & Vegeta there is none, he's being selfish and everyones openly agreeing to it for no reason (I'll get back to this later).

Gero is part of an army that tried to take over the world, Goku knows this, he knows there were bad people in it yet he's calling Gero innocent because he hasn't done anything wrong. Once again, ask. Shenron! If everyone wasn't holding the idiot ball so tightly, they could ask Shenron for what Gero is like then at least Goku's choice would make some sense. But they don't and given the kind of guys the RRA employed, he has no reason to think Gero is innocent.

My point on Goku staying dead still stands though, he think it'll become less likely for threats to arrive but its once again based on him misinterpreting coincidences. If an alien war lord came to Earth to attack it, he's gonna get there regardless if Goku is alive or not. He thinks he's some magnet for evil but he really isn't, him not being around for this stuff wouldn't have made Pilaf or the RRA or Piccolo taking over the world any less likely to happen.

I'm not saying Krillin's idea is entirely illogical but the way he's going about it seems counterintuitive to what he's trying to do. He wants the Androids to keep Vegeta occupied so he can hold off on him killing Goku (which wouldn't matter anyhow thanks to Namek). Why allow him to train for the Androids then? With Goku, Vegeta knows exactly how strong he needs to get to bypass and defeat him, but by giving Vegeta an enemy who's many time stronger, he'll just become even stronger and a greater threat should he overshoot Goku.

Krillin of the Saiyan arc is a smart guy, Krillin & everyone in the Cell Saga is an imbecile. He saw Vegeta and Nappa kill almost everyone they know, nearly kill him and destroy the entire planet, Goku is the one being selfish for asking Krillin, a witness of all this to spare Vegeta just so Goku's fighting boner can get another good fight, consequences be damned.

Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan all saw what happens when insanely powerful and amoral people do when there's no one around to stop them from the events on Namek: total destruction. Tien, Yamcha and Krillin (again) also know from the Saiyan Saga that training really hard isn't enough sometimes as it resulted in some of their deaths. In a series where characters remembered what happened before and had it effect them, they wouldn't all succumb to stupid Saiyan logic and just follow Goku & Vegeta's lead, but they do. Everyone's thinking like Goku, no one is thinking like themselves. Krillin, who's experienced all this should be the first guy telling Goku to piss off for suggesting that Bulma's idea is dumb.

[rereboy]

Gero is part of an army that tried to take over the world, Goku knows this, he knows there were bad people in it yet he's calling Gero innocent because he hasn't done anything wrong. Once again, ask. Shenron! If everyone wasn't holding the idiot ball so tightly, they could ask Shenron for what Gero is like then at least Goku's choice would make some sense. But they don't and given the kind of guys the RRA employed, he has no reason to think Gero is innocent.

There's no need for that. If they want to stop him, they just have to find him (with the DBs or other means) and wreck his lab and inventions. There would be no need to harm him regardless of him being bad or not. And if they are worried that he might rebuild them in the future, they would just have to keep an eye on him. Heck, if they found something illegal in the lab, they probably could just have him arrested which would take care of him for a long time.

Him being bad or good is irrelevant. He could be a good guy that was building androids to help humanity but they just went berserk, or he could be a guy building androids to take over the world. It really doesn't matter. The end result is the same. His androids are the problem.

[TheUltimateVegito]

The idea of a man making Androids for an army isn't far fetched, the problem is that there's no transition between bumbling army of idiots and insane, revenge obsessed megalomaniac who abducts people and forces cyborg augmentation on them. Its like if the Freeza saga came right after the Hunt for the Dragon Balls arc. Its jarring, its not believable in the least and the RRA don't impact Goku or matter enough to him for me to buy it as anything but Toriyama trying to make a callback to DB. Hell, by the time its almost over I forget that it has anything to do with the RRA until SPC mentions Gero.

Future Bulma thinking they lose because there's no Goku is just Toriyama trying to make a smart characters decision seem stupid by saying "Shonen law is king, therefore you abide by it or shut up". Nor do I think Goku reflects on anything besides hows he gonna beat the Androids. This is the same guy who decides its not nice to kill the guy who starts the apocalypse because.... he hasn't done anything wrong? Nope, Goku is ffffaarrrr too stupid and selfish for me to buy that the virus was anything but an inconvenience for him and a contrivance to get him out of the story again.

I see things from Goku's perspective fine, but it doesn't make sense to me. The way he's saying it makes it sound like he's blaming himself for these guys doing anything, like they wouldn't exist or threaten the planet at all if he didn't. Now sure, Piccolo might've stayed away and lets say Vegeta & or Freeza never came to conquer Earth as is their job, that still leaves Pilaf and the RRA. Both of whom want world domination, well Red wants to get taller but fat chance Black would've let him live if they actually summoned Shenron to waste a wish like that. I get what he's saying, it just doesn't make sense to me. Its like someone being at the site of five car crashes then blaming himself for them happening when all he did was be there.

As for the Krillin thing, maybe this is just a Viz mistranslation but Krillin is directly implying something totally else. He isn't saying "Lets do this so we can work together and convert Vegeta to our side" he's saying "Without a common enemy, who knows what Vegeta would do, talk about scary" which is a stupid way to reason Goku's equally stupid choice anyhow. Vegeta cannot do jack to Goku, sure he can train to beat him but so will Goku, all Bulma has to do is give him a gravity chamber of his own and he'll leave Vegeta eternally in the dust. Or simply use the Dragon Balls on Namek to wish Goku back should Vegeta somehow prevail, Vegeta is a total non-issue.

If Toriyama actually had characters remember and react to what happened to them the last time they got involved with insane, planet destroying maniacs (almost or in the case of everyone bug Gohan DIED!) they'd summon Shenron, ask him to see what Gero is like, see his a bastard then wait a year to kill him. This is nothing but Toriyama writing everyone as willfully ignorant morons not to push a development for Goku or a thematic through-line but because he cannot be arsed to stop for a second and actually think through what the hell he's doing.

RRA literally made Goku weighed the responsibility of protecting others, and the Androids made him weigh the responsibility even more. That in itself is the perfect transition without needed to mention them until the Androids being revealed.

Gero not doing anything wrong was part of his reason, but his main reason was he wanted to fight the Androids, that never changed even after his change when he woke up from the heart virus.

Goku is blaming himself because of the danger they bring for the earth's future. Goku evaluated the fact that he's constantly attracting threats throughout his life, and he believes it'd be less likely not impossible for another threat to happen once he leaves. If he thought it was impossible then he wouldn't have needed to pass the torch to Gohan.

We totally need a more accurate translation but I've seen a few translations and they emphasized the whole uniting everyone angle of it. Either way, it's pretty much the same thing. Krillin wants a common enemy to keep Vegeta in line, meaning that he thinks Vegeta would become better if they unite against a common enemy, the Krillin of the Saiyan arc wouldn't have done this. Meaning he grew to realize having a common enemy bonds the Z-Fighters together which was a result of his experiences.

They're all fully aware of the risks, I don't think them remembering what happened before would change anything. Besides, like I said, it was Goku and Vegeta who were the catalyst for the Z-Fighters letting the Androids activate and Goku himself eliminated the chance of that happening in the future by remembering what happened.

I would buy the RRA showing Goku the importance of protecting others if almost every instance of it later on wasn't primarily fueled by Goku's selfish desires first and protecting others & saving the world a distant second. Why does he go after Piccolo? For revenge. Why does he let Jr go? Because he's the only one left to fight him? Why does he let Vegeta go? Because he wants to fight him. Why does he let the Androids come? Because he wants to fight them. At least with Jr he has somewhat of an excuse for wanting the DBs to stay but with the Androids & Vegeta there is none, he's being selfish and everyones openly agreeing to it for no reason (I'll get back to this later).

Gero is part of an army that tried to take over the world, Goku knows this, he knows there were bad people in it yet he's calling Gero innocent because he hasn't done anything wrong. Once again, ask. Shenron! If everyone wasn't holding the idiot ball so tightly, they could ask Shenron for what Gero is like then at least Goku's choice would make some sense. But they don't and given the kind of guys the RRA employed, he has no reason to think Gero is innocent.

My point on Goku staying dead still stands though, he think it'll become less likely for threats to arrive but its once again based on him misinterpreting coincidences. If an alien war lord came to Earth to attack it, he's gonna get there regardless if Goku is alive or not. He thinks he's some magnet for evil but he really isn't, him not being around for this stuff wouldn't have made Pilaf or the RRA or Piccolo taking over the world any less likely to happen.

I'm not saying Krillin's idea is entirely illogical but the way he's going about it seems counterintuitive to what he's trying to do. He wants the Androids to keep Vegeta occupied so he can hold off on him killing Goku (which wouldn't matter anyhow thanks to Namek). Why allow him to train for the Androids then? With Goku, Vegeta knows exactly how strong he needs to get to bypass and defeat him, but by giving Vegeta an enemy who's many time stronger, he'll just become even stronger and a greater threat should he overshoot Goku.

Krillin of the Saiyan arc is a smart guy, Krillin & everyone in the Cell Saga is an imbecile. He saw Vegeta and Nappa kill almost everyone they know, nearly kill him and destroy the entire planet, Goku is the one being selfish for asking Krillin, a witness of all this to spare Vegeta just so Goku's fighting boner can get another good fight, consequences be damned.

Piccolo, Krillin and Gohan all saw what happens when insanely powerful and amoral people do when there's no one around to stop them from the events on Namek: total destruction. Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Krillin (again) also know from the Saiyan Saga that training really hard isn't enough sometimes as it resulted in some of their deaths. In a series where characters remembered what happened before and had it effect them, they wouldn't all succumb to stupid Saiyan logic and just follow Goku & Vegeta's lead, but they do. Everyone's thinking like Goku, no one is thinking like themselves. Krillin, who's experienced all this should be the first guy telling Goku to piss off for suggesting that Bulma's idea is dumb.

Goku having his selfish side doesn't mean he doesn't weigh the responsibility, it just makes him a conflicted character. Remember Goku was even more selfish during the events of the RRA, wanting to get the 4-Star ball for himself.

That was years ago though, when the RRA was still alive, Dr. Gero hasn't really done anything since the collapse of the RRA until he unleashed his Androids. Plus, Goku's Saiyan nature does cloud his way of thinking.

But he was a magnet for evil. Most of the bad guys were attracted to Goku for their own reasons which all progressed to the events of the Cell arc. Frieza wouldn't have even bothered going to earth personally if not for Goku, meaning the empire would care more for earth than if Goku didn't defeat Frieza. Whether or not earth would've been better off if Goku didn't live there doesn't change that Goku truly was attracting these bad guys in ways he couldn't have predicted.

Krillin wants Vegeta to train so that Vegeta would grow into a more powerful and trustworthy ally like Piccolo did. Like I said, he could hatch a plan to destroy new Namek or use their Dragon Balls then destroy it.

Yamcha didn't really say whether or not he wanted to fight. Tien at that point believes dying to defend earth is a death without regrets, especially after knowing what the otherworld is like for him. Krillin believes that it's best to face the Android threat and have Vegeta become a great ally to help against future threats, than Vegeta eventually doing something evil himself, and knowing how cunning Vegeta is, I don't blame Krillin for thinking like that.

[LuckyCat]

It's important to recognize Toriyama knew that the Dragonballs would be an obvious out for his Android story, but he was at least smart enough to give Bulma that line and give a plausible in-universe reason not to use the Dragon balls. You might not be happy with the decision, but I don't see how it's lazy or bad writing when Toriyama fully embraced the point in his story.

[rereboy]

It's important to recognize Toriyama knew that the Dragonballs would be an obvious out for his Android story, but he was at least smart enough to give Bulma that line and give a plausible in-universe reason not to use the Dragon balls. You might not be happy with the decision, but I don't see how it's lazy or bad writing when Toriyama fully embraced the point in his story.

I don't think that's an issue. It's obvious that things like this are glossed over in the story simply because it's a shonen. These things are not supposed to be viewed with a real world detailed view, but a much more superficial view. Still, it's fun/nice to debate more in detail these things.

[LuckyCat]

It's important to recognize Toriyama knew that the Dragonballs would be an obvious out for his Android story, but he was at least smart enough to give Bulma that line and give a plausible in-universe reason not to use the Dragon balls. You might not be happy with the decision, but I don't see how it's lazy or bad writing when Toriyama fully embraced the point in his story.

I don't think that's an issue. It's obvious that things like this are glossed over simply because it's a shonen. These things are not supposed to be viewed with a real world detailed view, but a much more superficial view. Still, it's fun/nice to debate more in detail these things.

Well it does keep coming up in Android saga discussions, so I'd say it is an issue. I don't see why it needs to be viewed "superficially". I mean, yes, these stories were written for young audiences, but the author took time to address a perhaps more adult point and deserves credit for it.

[rereboy]

Well it does keep coming up in Android saga discussions, so I'd say it is an issue. I don't see why it needs to be viewed "superficially". I mean, yes, these stories were written for young audiences, but the author took time to address a perhaps more adult point and deserves credit for it.

I disagree. The author added a superficial reason/justification for the plot to move forward, one that falls apart under any real detailed analysis. Which is fine because this is a shonen, there's really no need for it to be deeper and more detailed that what he added, it only has to make some sense and be mostly consistent with the character's personalities so that it doesn't look too stupid and/or becomes a plothole. Toriyama does deserve credit for not letting it be a plothole but that's kind of the minimum, imo.

However, if this wasn't a shonen, if this was something more serious, an adult drama, or something more "serious business", it wouldn't really cut it.

It keeps coming up in android saga discussion because it's something that is fairly obviously not very well justified and people are actually analyzing the saga in detail. But, like I said, it's not meant to be viewed in that light and most fans actually are somewhat aware of that, they just naturally end up doing it anyway because they love discussing Dragon Ball.

[LuckyCat]

That's fine, we can agree to disagree because I think you can write a shonen-story and still make it smart enough to appeal to all ages, which I think Toriyama did on this occasion.

That all said, I don't think Cell would be a fitting end as a saga. It worked at the point it was written as an ending, but as the characterization marched on it seems more obvious Gohan isn't fit to protect the Earth on his own like Goku had hoped.

[rereboy]

That's fine, we can agree to disagree because I think you can write a shonen-story and still make it smart enough to appeal to all ages, which I think Toriyama does on occasion.

That all said, I don't think Cell would be a fitting end as a saga. It worked at the point it was written as an ending, but as the characterization marched on it seems more obvious Gohan isn't fit to protect the Earth on his own like Goku had hoped.

Oh, I think it's definitely possible to write a shonen like that. I just don't think a shonen needs it to work. And that works in favor of Dragon Ball in various occasions, imo, like the one we were discussing.

In fact, often a shonen works better if the author doesn't bite more than he can chew in regards to detail and seriousness.

[ekrolo2]

It's important to recognize Toriyama knew that the Dragonballs would be an obvious out for his Android story, but he was at least smart enough to give Bulma that line and give a plausible in-universe reason not to use the Dragon balls. You might not be happy with the decision, but I don't see how it's lazy or bad writing when Toriyama fully embraced the point in his story.

It would've been smarter to just have Bulma keep her trap shut. The very fact he has her bring it up shows he knows their reasoning is bullshit but feels the need to (poorly) justify it regardless.

[LuckyCat]

It would've been smarter to just have Bulma keep her trap shut. The very fact he has her bring it up shows he knows their reasoning is bullshit but feels the need to (poorly) justify it regardless.

We'd just be having this same conversation except you or someone else would be complaining that Toriyama forgot about the Dragon Balls entirely, which would be much poorer writing, in my estimate.

[ekrolo2]

It would've been smarter to just have Bulma keep her trap shut. The very fact he has her bring it up shows he knows their reasoning is bullshit but feels the need to (poorly) justify it regardless.

We'd just be having this same conversation except you or someone else would be complaining that Toriyama forgot about the Dragon Balls entirely, which would be much poorer writing, in my estimate.

At least I could write it off as Toriyama just forgetting but this is him recognizing he messed up and instead of finding a way to work around it like say the good guys trying to take out Gero but he left a back up somewhere else he points out the stupidity of it then tries to rationalize it. Its the entire Cell Saga in a nutshell, him writing himself into a corner then not stopping to find a halfway decent route to keep it going without making everyone looks like idiots.

[LuckyCat]

At least I could write it off as Toriyama just forgetting but this is him recognizing he messed up and instead of finding a way to work around it like say the good guys trying to take out Gero but he left a back up somewhere else he points out the stupidity of it then tries to rationalize it. Its the entire Cell Saga in a nutshell, him writing himself into a corner then not stopping to find a halfway decent route to keep it going without making everyone looks like idiots.

I don't know, it would be pretty hard to forgive Toriyama forgetting the titular Dragon Balls.