Why do people hate main characters?

[ABED]

The difference is that the original trilogy came out first, so it was designed to work without having seen what came before chronologically. The story doesn't work as well if you watch it in "order".

[Doctor.]

The difference is that the original trilogy came out first, so it was designed to work without having seen what came before chronologically. The story doesn't work as well if you watch it in "order".

It's like reading Minus or watching the Bardock special, then watching Dragon Ball, then watching Z. It doesn't work. The plot twist that Goku's an alien is completely ruined.

[Hot Rod]

Well, I've never been too interested in Star Wars franchise, but recently I gave it a try and watched in order... It worked for me, as well as it is in Dragon Ball. Even what Doctor. said might be true, it's not like if we're dealing with some random franchise that came out recently... Everyone knows the protagonist is not a human at this point.

[ABED]

Well, I've never been too interested in Star Wars franchise, but recently I gave it a try and watched in order... It worked for me, as well as it is in Dragon Ball. Even what Doctor. said might be true, it's not like if we're dealing with some random franchise that came out recently... Everyone knows the protagonist is not a human at this point.

This goes beyond a plot twist or two. DB especially works much better dramatically if you aren't jumping in right in the middle of the story. Piccolo and Goku teaming up to take down Raditz doesn't work nearly as well without seeing that history as mortal enemies.

[Lunatic Fringe]

Well, I've never been too interested in Star Wars franchise, but recently I gave it a try and watched in order... It worked for me, as well as it is in Dragon Ball. Even what Doctor. said might be true, it's not like if we're dealing with some random franchise that came out recently... Everyone knows the protagonist is not a human at this point.

This goes beyond a plot twist or two. DB especially works much better dramatically if you aren't jumping in right in the middle of the story. Piccolo and Goku teaming up to take down Raditz doesn't work nearly as well without seeing that history as mortal enemies.

Not to mention the deaths of Yamucha, Tenshinhan, and Chaozu. Without knowing their prior history, they're just unimportant casualties that don't have any history with the central protagonist as it takes the early portion of the Z section of the series for all of them to be reunited again.

[B]

Well, Gohan and Vegeta aren't the leads, thank God. The only character that I cannot fathom people hating, and yet still somehow being able to enjoy the series, is Goku. This goes for any work of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. They don't have to be your favorite character, but... they're the lead. They are there all the time. How are you having fun if you can't stomach them?

Gohan and Vegeta show up around the middle and neither are the all-encompassing protagonist. I can enjoy the show while still loathing them(I'd even say for Vegeta in the Cell and Buu arcs, it's kind of the point that you don't like him). Nobody officially involved with the series would be so bold, but you could easily continue the series without their involvement.

[Lionel]

I'll admit that I'm one of those people who's grown to dislike Goku over the years. My reasoning involves the fact that he's been an unchanging, static caricature of a person with nothing different about his personality since he was a teenager. His motives remain the same limited dimensional hunger for battle that's often been at the detriment of others. He's a privileged heritor from a race of genetically blessed warriors who happen to be capable of attaining inexplicable growths of strength through surviving alone and transforming which none of the other characters are able to match. Your worth is measured by whether you can attain the same spiked golden form as the Saiyans. That's been an unspoken rule of Dragon Ball since the alien species first entered the picture. Dragon Ball Z is definitely not a rags to riches type of story. My takeaway from DBZ has been that all of your discipline and skills mean nothing in the face of overwhelming extraterrestrial muscle. You predictably lay your trust and hopes in the hands of one of these advantaged beings because you can't fight for yourself.

We're at the point now that no one else besides Goku and Vegeta have any authority on a battlefield. Instead of trying to expand the viability of other characters in new and creative ways, the noose has tightened so that no one except these two Saiyans can do anything. What do we get out of it? The status-quo with Goku and an angsty rivalry in Vegeta that was already resolved back in the Buu and, in my honest opinion, has long overstayed its welcome. I don't like these characters because they continue to get rammed down our throats without reprieve. Why even show the other fighters any more if they have no more worth? It's like an underhanded way of dangling tantalising conflicts long past that had a wider variety of characters. Just let them subside into obscurity like Chaozu if you have no intention of using them. And no, I don't expect the Champa arc to be much different. I would like to be wrong about that. It's one of the few things that's kept me interested in Super, but at the same time I'm also going to be realistic about it.

[Doctor.]

the noose has tightened so that no one except these two Saiyans can do anything.

Well, that's just objectively wrong. Nobody? No. Nobody that wasn't introduced in Super? Now you have a point. Super is just doing to Piccolo, Gohan and the others, what Z did to Kuririn and the other humans. As in, gradually letting them fade into the sidelines as newer, more powerful and unexplored characters come into the picture, like Beerus, Whis and Monaka.

[precita]

Well, Gohan and Vegeta aren't the leads, thank God. The only character that I cannot fathom people hating, and yet still somehow being able to enjoy the series, is Goku. This goes for any work of fiction, as far as I'm concerned. They don't have to be your favorite character, but... they're the lead. They are there all the time. How are you having fun if you can't stomach them?

Gohan and Vegeta show up around the middle and neither are the all-encompassing protagonist. I can enjoy the show while still loathing them(I'd even say for Vegeta in the Cell and Buu arcs, it's kind of the point that you don't like him). Nobody officially involved with the series would be so bold, but you could easily continue the series without their involvement.

But Gohan and Vegeta combined probably get more screentime than Goku in DBZ. Aside from Radditz, Goku Vs Vegeta, Goku Vs. Freeza, and the tail-end of the Buu arc....Goku does very little in DBZ.

And like I said, what is it about Gohan and Vegeta you loathe?

[Lionel]

the noose has tightened so that no one except these two Saiyans can do anything.

Well, that's just objectively wrong. Nobody? No. Nobody that wasn't introduced in Super? Now you have a point. Super is just doing to Piccolo, Gohan and the others, what Z did to Kuririn and the other humans. As in, gradually letting them fade into the sidelines as newer, more powerful and unexplored characters come into the picture, like Beerus, Whis and Monaka.

I meant that in respect to the central cast of characters who have been long-standing throughout the original two series. Not recent additions to the latest arc with separate affiliations to their own interests and parties. I would hope Beerus, Whis, and Monaka carry some importance because these latest arcs relate directly to them. But I think you and I see this situation from different perspectives. To me, they're merely new additions who will inevitably fall into the pile of bloated unused characters that do nothing but indulge the big hero. The only one who's managed to escape this fate, to a degree at least, is Vegeta, presumably because of his iconicity and marketability status.

[ABED]

He's a privileged heritor from a race of genetically blessed warriors who happen to be capable of attaining inexplicable growths of strength through surviving alone and transforming which none of the other characters are able to match. Your worth is measured by whether you can attain the same spiked golden form as the Saiyans. That's been an unspoken rule of Dragon Ball since the alien species first entered the picture. Dragon Ball Z is definitely not a rags to riches type of story. My takeaway from DBZ has been that all of your discipline and skills mean nothing in the face of overwhelming extraterrestrial muscle. You predictably lay your trust and hopes in the hands of one of these advantaged beings because you can't fight for yourself.

It is a rags to riches. Goku was cast off from his race for being a weakling. Yes, he had genetics, but he put in the work. This is so wrong for so many reasons. If you believe Goku is a caricature, I don't think you've looked past the surface.

I don't like these characters because they continue to get rammed down our throats without reprieve.

It's HIS story. And Goku's rivalry with Vegeta isn't all that angsty anymore. It's more "friendly" without betraying who those characters are.

I know a lot of people like to point out that Goku is out of action for large portions of the story, but not only do I think it's an overused story point but it often feels like the other protagonists aren't necessarily given their chance to shine as much as they are buying time until Goku arrives.

[Lionel]

He's a privileged heritor from a race of genetically blessed warriors who happen to be capable of attaining inexplicable growths of strength through surviving alone and transforming which none of the other characters are able to match. Your worth is measured by whether you can attain the same spiked golden form as the Saiyans. That's been an unspoken rule of Dragon Ball since the alien species first entered the picture. Dragon Ball Z is definitely not a rags to riches type of story. My takeaway from DBZ has been that all of your discipline and skills mean nothing in the face of overwhelming extraterrestrial muscle. You predictably lay your trust and hopes in the hands of one of these advantaged beings because you can't fight for yourself.

It is a rags to riches. Goku was cast off from his race for being a weakling. Yes, he had genetics, but he put in the work. This is so wrong for so many reasons. If you believe Goku is a caricature, I don't think you've looked past the surface.

From a retrospective outlook of his infancy prior to coming to Earth, yes. However, since the beginning of the manga Goku was always portrayed as an exceptionally talented fighter who defied all of the odds and was consistently ahead of his friends. Virtually no one could stand up against his full might besides the finalists at the Budokais and the main antagonists of arcs. Characters such as Taopaipai and Tambourine were the outliers, and the latter only won because of circumstantial advantages that weren't there during the rematch. Goku's depiction as a crestfallen loser only extended insofar as his registered power level when he was a baby. Give him access to the proper resources and he outpaces everyone, including "genius" elites like Vegeta. A true underdog, at least in my opinion, is someone who underachieves yet somehow succeeds through perseverance and determination. Yes, Goku has those qualities, but he's never been an underachiever. Grasping the mechanics of the Kamehameha from one glance and using it shortly afterwards isn't the mark of an inept person; neither is capturing Karin in a fraction of the time it took his master to seize the Choseisui. To this day, Goku remains the only one who survived the rigours of the Chinshinsui.

I consider Goku to be a caricature because it's his naivete with regards to social conduct and single-minded commitment to fighting that define his personality. I believe what degree of profoundness he gained was derived Kami and that was his willingness to show mercy to his enemies. But his justifications for such behaviour were largely written off as being the result of them not posing a threat because they were unconscious or too weak to endanger anyone. There wasn't any established deep-seated philosophical abhorrence to this behaviour nor did Goku ever think beyond the immediate conflict. What hesitancy he showed towards killing was mostly weeded out in later arcs with the exception of Mr Buu, whom he justified as being for his services against Kid Buu, and Ginyu-Tagoma in Super. His simple mindedness is what makes Goku who he is.

It's HIS story. And Goku's rivalry with Vegeta isn't all that angsty anymore. It's more "friendly" without betraying who those characters are.

I know a lot of people like to point out that Goku is out of action for large portions of the story, but not only do I think it's an overused story point but it often feels like the other protagonists aren't necessarily given their chance to shine as much as they are buying time until Goku arrives.

Up until the end of DB, I would agree with you. But from there on then, it's as you mentioned, the story was beginning to shift based on the actions and circumstances of others aside from Goku. Take for example the battle with Raditz. He forged a temporary alliance with his arch nemesis at the time to defeat the greater threat and rescue his son, yet notice how most of Goku's contributions were more supplementary than direct in the enemy's defeat -- first working in tandem with Piccolo in melee combat against Raditz to gain some initiative, but then he fought primarily with the intention of stalling and immobilising Raditz so Piccolo could charge his attack. Gohan arguably contributed just as much because of his power upsurge damaging Raditz and allowing Goku the edge he needed to properly hold him in place. Afterwards, we're following the trails of others besides just Goku, Gohan most especially for whom we paid witness to his some of his training. It's not until just about all of the Z fighters have been killed that he appears to defeat Nappa. It can't be argued that Goku was solely responsible for Vegeta's defeat. He may have given the greatest amount of damage in terms of plurality, but the others also provided without which they would have all lost.

Whether Goku is responsible for the downfall of the main villain isn't the only element to importance. There's also the various players involved, the motivations for their actions in relation to the plot, and who helps progress things along to the point where Goku swoops in to take the reigns that are also important. After the Saiyan arc there's a noticeable decline in Goku's participation with him not showing up until later points when everything seems hopeless. He's not even the motivating factor for the events on Namek, nor were any of the villains particularly interested in him. Goku needed to self-insert himself into conflicts that had little to with his own character besides the Saiyan heritage and transformation with personal regards to Freeza. The motives for Dr Gero and the cyborgs were the opposite in that they were strictly driven towards killing Goku, but there's a certain irony to that because their target was almost completely absent except for the beginning of the arc and the Cell Games. It was chiefly characters like Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo who steered the plot along by uncovering the mysteries of the villains and being the main opposition against these same people, most of whom would never share a battlefield with Goku. In the end it was thanks to those other characters that Gero's ambitions were thwarted.

The Buu arc is where we see everything regress back to Goku being at the helm of the plot once Toriyama decided that Gohan wasn't up to his standards for the main character role; even then, his involvement in the conflict came at the beginning in short lived scuffles with minions, being partly the reason for Buu's resurrection, and stalling for time. It was his mentorship that was the chief focus until Gotenks and Gohan were absorbed. What's come afterwards is where we're at now in terms of formula with Goku and his rival, Vegeta, being the main players in the the story. No one else has been given even a temporary prayer of victory like we saw immediately after when Piccolo fused with Kami or with Gohan's Mystic form when confronting Super Buu.

If what you say is true about DBZ being singularly about Goku and his adventures then the material should reflect this fact, including the promotions. Don't show anyone as anything more than passive observers or unimportant disposable people with little meaning to their continued presence in the show. At the same time, I wish something could be done about the formulaic approach to DBZ's plot for the better where others can have some measure of serious importance in the overall plot besides whatever token gesture they're given.

[ABED]

Goku's not a caricature. He is a well defined character, there's a big difference. Being single minded is far from bad. He has a goal and he takes steps to achieve that goal. He's simple, but what about that makes him a caricature?

Sure Goku had certain genetic traits that helped in combat, but none of that would've meant a think if he didn't take action. You can have all the advantages in the world, but if you don't use them, it's meaningless. This point extends into real life. Goku might not fall into the category of the underdog, but he didn't start out as the best. He just had a lot of potential, and due to good genes and the determination to be the best for no other reason than it was his passion, he achieved his goals. I'm not sure what you have issue with. I would add that you used the term "rags to riches" not underdog. Goku was a great fighter because he trained and at least in this one area, he's brilliant. The fact that Goku isn't a typical goody two shoes who does what is just and right for its own sake is something that makes him interesting.

Virtually no one could stand up against his full might besides the finalists at the Budokais and the main antagonists of arcs.

That could be said of many protagonists in their stories. They are brilliant and no one is a match except for the antagonist. For instance, Sherlock Holmes.

I agree that the Saiyan arc, many other players were involved, but Goku's still the central protagonist, and sure, he's not the reason they go to Namek, though I'm not sure what your point is in that regard. Goku had to insert himself into the conflict? Again, not sure what that has to do with him not being the protagonist. The Ginyu Force was a part of the build up to Freeza. The heroes get decimated and are just buying story time for Goku to arrive and start to clean house. After that, Goku is once again sidelined. Toriyama begins getting lazy with this trope. The other characters get screentime, but unlike in the Saiyan arc, they serve little function in the story in bringing down the antagonist. Then at the beginning of the Cyborg/Cell arc, Goku is once again sidelined. Sure, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo drive much of the story, but they do little to help bring an end to the conflict. They don't find the DB's or find something that helps bring an end to Cell. Vegeta actually helps Cell achieve his goal. Sure, it serves the story, but a lot of it is still waiting for Goku to get to the scene so he can solve the problem or help solve it. None of them really uncover the mysteries. One could argue that Piccolo does by getting Cell to divulge his past, but that was a lot of lazy exposition. And yes, it was Gohan's power that destroyed Cell, but he needed his hand held, and the moment isn't nearly as cathartic since Cell's connection isn't to Gohan. The conflict is between Cell and Goku with Gohan acting almost as Goku's proxy.

If what you say is true about DBZ being singularly about Goku and his adventures then the material should reflect this fact, including the promotions.

That's not what I wrote. I never ever claimed that the story is SOLELY about Goku, but he is the central character and I believe should remain so. It seems like you wrote an awful lot in response to a point that I never made.

[Lionel]

Goku's not a caricature. He is a well defined character, there's a big difference. Being single minded is far from bad. He has a goal and he takes steps to achieve that goal. He's simple, but what about that makes him a caricature?

Sure Goku had certain genetic traits that helped in combat, but none of that would've meant a think if he didn't take action. You can have all the advantages in the world, but if you don't use them, it's meaningless. This point extends into real life. Goku might not fall into the category of the underdog, but he didn't start out as the best. He just had a lot of potential, and due to good genes and the determination to be the best for no other reason than it was his passion, he achieved his goals. I'm not sure what you have issue with. I would add that you used the term "rags to riches" not underdog. Goku was a great fighter because he trained and at least in this one area, he's brilliant. The fact that Goku isn't a typical goody two shoes who does what is just and right for its own sake is something that makes him interesting.

His single-minded thirst for combat is exaggerated to the point where all good sense of pragmatism has often been tossed into the wayside. On several occasions he's placed enjoyment and "fairness" within the battle before the reality of the situation being a life or death struggle that impacts many aside from himself. Now what is the definition of a caricature? "Caricature - a picture, description, or imitation of a person or thing in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated in order to create a comic or grotesque effect." Or there's the literary definition of caricature, "portrayal of an individual or thing that exaggerates and distorts prominent characteristics so as to make them appear ridiculous".

Does that sound familiar? Goku's profound lack of social etiquette has been a major source for comical interpretation since the beginning of the manga. The word "grotesque" also has a contextual relation to Goku's conduct throughout the series -- "incongruous or inappropriate to a shocking degree". Some of his behavioral decisions like naively believing Raditz's charade of surrender in spite of it being a clear ruse to release him and his twisted logic about giving Cell a Senzu would coincide with the meaning of "grotesque". Aside from his naivety and social ignorance, Goku's other most striking personality trait is his insatiable hunger, another frequent source of comical exaggeration because of his propensity to eat in unnaturally, downright unrealistic sums of food for his physical size compared to his friends.

Of course Goku's prodigy status would not have been able to blossom without him working at it. Just because someone may have an aptitude for a particular activity doesn't necessarily mean they're going to be masters of that activity simply by existing. It would be like an Olympic swimmer choosing to become a couch potato and allowing themselves to become fat and out of shape for years at a time while still expecting themselves to perform as well as they did at their peak when they were still in the Olympics. An underdog wouldn't have that same kind of aptitude to begin with. One example of that would be maybe Rock Lee from Naruto. He was someone who underperformed and had no talent in any particular field, including taijutsu originally; now try comparing him to Sasuke who grasped his style of combat and speed in only a month's worth of training (similar to Goku's comprehension of the Kamehameha from seeing it just once). The latter is who Goku is. He may have started out weaker compared with other Saiyans, but he always had the natural talent to excel.

Going back to the rags and riches metaphor -- Goku wasn't really the one in rags. Strictly in Saiyan society the initial perception of him was that he is a low class grunt with a meagre power level. But that's not how he grew up nor was he ever a weakling. He grew up with the impression that he was something exceptional in the world around him. It wasn't until Raditz and the other Saiyans appeared that this lowly perception emerged; though that notion was quelled soon after once these so called "elites" were challenged and beaten, all of whom Goku left in the dust. His genius talent circumvents whatever power level he was conceived with because that's largely been immaterial to his life. The training was what he used to achieve that state because lazing about wouldn't grant him that power, this can apply to anyone of any social or physical status, be it the underwhelming pauper or incredible genius.

That could be said of many protagonists in their stories. They are brilliant and no one is a match except for the antagonist. For instance, Sherlock Holmes.

Okay... But that doesn't detract from the point being made regarding his incredible aptitude. He started out exceptional and only continued to grow in exceptional strength until everyone around him couldn't stand up to him any more, including his fellow Saiyans.

I agree that the Saiyan arc, many other players were involved, but Goku's still the central protagonist, and sure, he's not the reason they go to Namek, though I'm not sure what your point is in that regard. Goku had to insert himself into the conflict? Again, not sure what that has to do with him not being the protagonist. The Ginyu Force was a part of the build up to Freeza. The heroes get decimated and are just buying story time for Goku to arrive and start to clean house. After that, Goku is once again sidelined. Toriyama begins getting lazy with this trope. The other characters get screentime, but unlike in the Saiyan arc, they serve little function in the story in bringing down the antagonist. Then at the beginning of the Cyborg/Cell arc, Goku is once again sidelined. Sure, Vegeta, Trunks, and Piccolo drive much of the story, but they do little to help bring an end to the conflict. They don't find the DB's or find something that helps bring an end to Cell. Vegeta actually helps Cell achieve his goal. Sure, it serves the story, but a lot of it is still waiting for Goku to get to the scene so he can solve the problem or help solve it. None of them really uncover the mysteries. One could argue that Piccolo does by getting Cell to divulge his past, but that was a lot of lazy exposition. And yes, it was Gohan's power that destroyed Cell, but he needed his hand held, and the moment isn't nearly as cathartic since Cell's connection isn't to Gohan. The conflict is between Cell and Goku with Gohan acting almost as Goku's proxy.

You made the assertion that the story was Goku's. I presented counterfactual evidence demonstrating the story at the time had nothing to do with him nor was he integral to the transpiring of events on Namek until he personally injected himself into the story. He is technically the protagonist of the overarching plotline, but it was such a status that was largely unimportant to that particular arc until the very end when the Ginyu Force and Freeza presented themselves which amounted to defeating them and fulfilling an ancient Saiyan prophecy that he had no personal understanding and was only achieved by unrelated circumstances related to his friend dying. This proves that the story doesn't have to share an inherent connection to Goku for it to happen, though he still often manages to find a way to insert himself into events.

How you're describing his role in the story appears to be, from my impression, that he's not a part of the narrative so much as he is the arm of the "good guys" intended to outmuscle the opposition. He's not the driving force behind executing what was the original purpose of traveling to Namek in the first place which is using the Dragon Balls to resurrect everyone, a primary motivation which became a secondary objective in the Cell arc to counteract the damage afflicted by Cell. It's like equating Dabura's function as the right hand protector to the architect of the conflict which is Babidi. Sure, he might be the one physically works to protect and assist Babidi, but that's only the means to an end. Although it should be noted that the others helped bring down the various minions, either directly or indirectly such as Vegeta's agreement to let Cell absorb #18 rather than kill him which also progressed the plot along to the point where Goku's presence became necessary again due to the misjudgment of others.

I think you are correct in that Goku was originally Cell's main target. The symbolical testament to his own perfection by overcoming the very person he was originally created to kill who happened to be the best fighter on the planet. What's ironic is that he did indeed achieve this goal which in the end resulted in the actions of these characters leading to Cell's death. A fitting resolution when you think about how it was originally Trunks, a completely separate person who no one knew with little personal history to Gero or his creations aside from being persecuted by them, giving them the warning about the cyborgs and granting them the medicine that allowed Goku to live while most of the direction of the plot was steered along by the actions of others with Goku only acting as a motivational piece which is a twist in and of itself when he had no relation to the prior motive on Namek yet was physically instrumental in the downfall of the main antagonist.

That's not what I wrote. I never ever claimed that the story is SOLELY about Goku, but he is the central character and I believe should remain so. It seems like you wrote an awful lot in response to a point that I never made.

You made that original statement in responce to my complaint about the story having become centrally focused on only Goku and Vegeta while removing everyone else as viable fighters of any respectable level. This formula isn't equivalent to DBZ's or even DB's because it could at least be disputed that others retained some measurable worth in combat, even while it was generally inferior to Goku's. Most of these characters have been discarded since then. Originally by the onset of Z everyone was at least participating in combat during the Saiyan arc, six altogether without Goku. By the Namek arc, this number was reduced to four with the inclusion of Vegeta factored in. Come the Cyborg and Cell arcs, anyone who isn't of Saiyan ancestry or Piccolo has been completely invalidated as fighters, leaving only four with the inclusion of Trunks (limited strictly to previous cast members and it's reduced down to three). The Buu arc is the worst perpetrator in this regard because the scope of combat relevancy is limited only to Saiyans and their offspring. This is coincident to the analogy made with the noose tightening and fewer characters sharing any proactive role in DBZ besides Goku and the anomalous Vegeta who has constantly remained active for whatever reason.

My statement is arguing that the material used to promote the anime should reflect this new direction by not falsely portraying any of the other characters besides Vegeta in any proactive role. It distorts the reality of what Super is actually about and may create wrong impressions with the viewers that there is anything more to said characters for this new anime. These new adventures happen to focus on Goku. What was Vegeta's stated incentive for joining Whis's training? To not be left behind like everyone else because of his rivalry with Goku. That's an established link to Goku being the primary incentive for his training. Central character would be an understatement. Goku is pretty much the only driving force left in this story with everyone else having virtually no authority in any regard to what's going on. The only contested exceptions involve these new separate party characters that are appearing in story arcs related directly to them.

[ABED]

His single-minded thirst for combat is exaggerated to the point where all good sense of pragmatism has often been tossed into the wayside

It's not exaggerated, his appetite exaggerated, his love of battle is who he is. I know what a caricature is.

Letting Raditz go has nothing to do with his love of battle, it happened because Goku is naïve. Goku's logic in giving Cell a senzu wasn't twisted. Cell had no chance of winning. It made ZERO difference.

This proves that the story doesn't have to share an inherent connection to Goku for it to happen, though he still often manages to find a way to insert himself into events.

Okay, no one claimed it did.

You made that original statement in responce to my complaint about the story having become centrally focused on only Goku and Vegeta while removing everyone else as viable fighters of any respectable level.

You act as though it's the worst thing. So what if they did eventually fade out of being important to the story and keep only Goku and Vegeta important to fighting the protagonists? Is that the worst thing? And how often did any of the other characters stand a chance against the central protagonists besides Goku? With all of the things you pointed out, Gohan, Kuririn, Piccolo, Yamcha, etc. where rarely able to fight the big bad. Either the big bad needed to be weakened a lot or they were helpful in some other way. Gohan and Kuririn were helpful on Namek by getting the DB's. Things like that make sense for the supporting players.

[omaro34]

Goku's always late in DBZ.

[omaro34]

His single-minded thirst for combat is exaggerated to the point where all good sense of pragmatism has often been tossed into the wayside

It's not exaggerated, his appetite exaggerated, his love of battle is who he is. I know what a caricature is.

Letting Raditz go has nothing to do with his love of battle, it happened because Goku is naïve. Goku's logic in giving Cell a senzu wasn't twisted. Cell had no chance of winning. It made ZERO difference.

This proves that the story doesn't have to share an inherent connection to Goku for it to happen, though he still often manages to find a way to insert himself into events.

Okay, no one claimed it did.

You made that original statement in responce to my complaint about the story having become centrally focused on only Goku and Vegeta while removing everyone else as viable fighters of any respectable level.

You act as though it's the worst thing. So what if they did eventually fade out of being important to the story and keep only Goku and Vegeta important to fighting the protagonists? Is that the worst thing? And how often did any of the other characters stand a chance against the central protagonists besides Goku? With all of the things you pointed out, Gohan, Kuririn, Piccolo, Yamcha, etc. where rarely able to fight the big bad. Either the big bad needed to be weakened a lot or they were helpful in some other way. Gohan and Kuririn were helpful on Namek by getting the DB's. Things like that make sense for the supporting players.

Speaking of Raditz, when Goku grabbed Raditz with a full nelson from behind which led to both of their deaths by the hands of Piccolo why didn't he just grab his tail again instead? I mean, its already established it was his weak point.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku's always late in DBZ.

If that was the case, every one of the Z-Fighters would have died in the Saiyan arc.

[omaro34]

Goku's always late in DBZ.

If that was the case, every one of the Z-Fighters would have died in the Saiyan arc.

He was late getting to the battlefield against the Saiyans, he spent plenty episodes healing in that chamber on Namek, he was delayed again by the heart virus, etc.

There's even a filler episode called "He's always late" at the end of DBZ.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku's always late in DBZ.

If that was the case, every one of the Z-Fighters would have died in the Saiyan arc.

He was late getting to the battlefield against the Saiyans, he spent plenty episodes healing in that chamber on Namek, he was delayed again by the heart virus, etc.

All of those circumstances were out of his control.