Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

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Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:09 pm

Goku and Vegeta, arguably one the greatest rivalries in all of fiction.

The differences between Goku and Vegeta stemmed from the environment they grew up in. Vegeta grew up in Planet Vegeta, a planet of the warrior race - The Saiyans, where one's social status and promise is determined by their strength from birth. His experiences growing up strengthened his belief that a warrior's promise is set in stone. Whereas Goku grew up on earth, where he was taught that a position or title is not something to be content with, that you can achieve greater things if you put your mind into it. And, similar to Vegeta, all of his experiences strengthened his belief with the difference being that Goku believed hard work is more important than social status.

The Saiyans being a prideful race made Vegeta extremely proud of himself. He enjoys the idea that his abilities are set in stone more than any other Saiyan since he is the prince, and being the prince means he has the potential to achieve something legendary and becoming the greatest in the universe. Because Vegeta defines himself by his social status, he displays a great deal of arrogance and puts down others for the sake of his ego. Whereas Goku is proud of the fact that he has limits to overcome. He enjoys the idea that his abilities are only limited by his own mind, and that there's no limit he cannot overcome, seeing as how he has no social status and is the most pure Saiyan, he would rather humble himself to have more opportunities in training than put down others.

When Goku and Vegeta clash so did their beliefs as fighters. Vegeta tried to put down Goku like he would other lower class warriors but Goku, thanks to his upbringing, was able to turn that on his head by humbling himself, saying he's actually grateful to the Saiyans for seeing him as nothing more than a lower class, because that allowed him to experience what he did on earth. By defeating Vegeta, Goku's beliefs outdid and shattered Vegeta's beliefs, with the events of the Namek saga damaging Vegeta's beliefs even more. (More insight on that on my Vegeta analysis http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=31401 )

But to fully understand the difference between Goku and Vegeta's mentalities in their training one must examine the events of the Cell arc. Vegeta at this point was wrapped in his desire to be the best and outdo the one he hates. Despite being a genius like Goku is, his mindset greatly hinders his abilities. Vegeta desire to train hard was fuelled by his hatred whereas Goku's was fuelled by his pure desire to train. Because of this, Vegeta couldn't have hoped to attain what Goku did because to achieve the MSSJ form one must allow the MSSJ form to constitute their base form, which Vegeta couldn't fully do since he must eliminate the uneasiness and anger that stems from the SSJ form. Goku doesn't stress himself out and trains smart whereas Vegeta allows his pride to consume him and train more than necessary, which ends up backfiring at him.

When Vegeta went Majin he knew it was his only chance to beat Goku. At this point in Vegeta's life, it was no longer about proving that his beliefs as a warrior are better than Goku's, it was about regaining what pride he has left from the man that took it from him. Thanks to Goku, Vegeta was left broken and actually had to bond with his family. Something that Vegeta believes only weaklings do. Vegeta was forced to go against what he believed makes a strong man merely to have the will to live. But after reflecting on what he's become, he realized he's become a better man than before, he reached a level far beyond many Saiyans throughout history and although he didn't reclaim his birthright, he was lucky to have someone like Goku regain the pride of the Saiyans for him by defeating Frieza. And although it hurts him, it was Goku making him look beyond social statuses and Saiyan society that moulded Vegeta into a better warrior than he would've been otherwise. If he wasn't inspired by Goku to work on his senses and ki control he wouldn't have went as far as he did on Namek since Frieza's army/Saiyan society were fixated on their scouters and numbers to determine one's potential. If it wasn't for Vegeta's desire to become better than Goku he wouldn't have become as strong as he is now, and if it wasn't for Goku deciding to stay dead he wouldn't have taken the time to bond with his family and have something to fight for other than himself. Vegeta realized that, as much as it hurts him to admit it, Goku moulded him into a better man and Vegeta himself is thankful for it. Hence why he sacrificed his life for Goku as well as his family because in a way, Goku was Vegeta's most important friend.

Although Goku wanted to spare Vegeta to challenge himself against him, part of him wanted Vegeta to become good so he can have a fellow Saiyan to be friends with and spar against as well as being an ally that would help defend the earth, which was one of the reasons why Goku decided to stay dead. He knew that if he did Vegeta would be broken, but he also knew it was necessary so he would grow into a stronger ally and family man instead of leading a path that would end in his death and hell, which Vegeta himself admits in his speech during the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta came to terms with the fact that he cannot be better than Goku because he cannot match Goku in terms of upbringing and motivations. He realized at this point that Goku was his true inspiration, and although he was a better warrior than ever thanks to Goku, it was Goku's level of purity that inspired him, a level of purity that Vegeta admits that he can never reach. Which is the key difference between Goku and Vegeta and why Goku is "Number One".

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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:57 pm

Fantastic analysis. And I certainly agree that the Goku/Vegeta rivality is one of the greatest and most iconic in fiction. One of the best things about the new material, especially in regards to Super, has been expanding on Goku and Vegeta's relationship and how their rivalry has evolved.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 7:51 pm

"Greatest rivalries in all of anime/Shonen?" Maybe. Debateable.

"All of fiction?" No. Not even close. Like, not even in the top 100 close.

The rivalry is incredibly shallow, and almost completely one-sided on Vegeta's part. Goku doesn't particularly care. The first half of your last paragraph is entirely baseless conjecture. Goku never cared about Vegeta becoming stronger as a person or any of that nonsense. Goku wanted a guy he could fight. In the Buu Arc, Goku barely gave Vegeta the time of day, and Vegeta, because he wanted attention from his man crush, decided to throw a tantrum, sell his soul to the devil, and kill off a bunch of onlookers.

This "rivalry" is nothing more than Vegeta being so desperate to prove himself relevant that he's manufactured an imaginary version of Goku that actually cares about competing with him.

Here's a quote from Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn that perfectly sums up their relationship. I'll let you all figure out who's supposed to represent Vegeta and who is supposed to be Goku:

Oscar: Hi, Kieran. How are you?
Kieran: What the... Oscar! How I loathe that name! Don't give me such pleasant greetings! I care not for them!
Oscar: What did I do now?
Kieran: Oh ho! Don't tell me you've forgotten our second year of enlistment! The year we completed horsemanship? There was a final race to end the year... My beloved horse and I were flawless, but you beat us by the smallest of margins!
Oscar: Huh? Oh, are you talking about that race you challenged me to? Yeah, that was fun... But I thought the distance between us was at least three lengths--
Kieran: Ha! LIAR! Deceitful, lying, squinty coward! That was the very moment I marked you as my archrival! Don't pretend not to care!
Oscar: Uh...wow. I had no idea--
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by Vijay » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:22 pm

Goku/Vegeta relationship is as iconic as DBZ

A rivalry which stemmed in Saiyan Arc (of which in itself culminates after a ton of buildup), was finally given much-needed importance in Buu Arc.

The beauty is that both their rivalry & friendship was the under-current driving force for major chunck of canonical final arc, Majin Buu arc.

Ultimately, a gem in Shounen/Anime that'll always be remembered for its World-Killer Power Levels & Character Depth :thumbup:

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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by dbzfan7 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:32 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:This "rivalry" is nothing more than Vegeta being so desperate to prove himself relevant that he's manufactured an imaginary version of Goku that actually cares about competing with him.
This right here is the perfect statement as to why I don't think this "rivalry" is anything special. No matter which side I root for, it feels dumb in the end. Goku's side is the one that doesn't give a crap about Vegeta whether he is stronger or weaker than him. Vegeta's side is the one that pretends Goku and he are in a competition when they really aren't. Goku wins no matter what. Either he's stronger than Vegeta and so he's doing really well in his training. He's equal to Vegeta which gives Goku a fun sparring partner, and a win win in his book. If Vegeta is stronger than Goku is excited about the prospect of reaching Vegeta's new level. Vegeta wins in like one case, while Goku wins in every case.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:35 pm

Even Kaiba's "rivalry" with Yugi is better. lol.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:45 am

Sometimes I think Toriyama never actually thought of their feud as a rivalry himself and the whole point of it was to show status isn't everything. You have a no named Saiyan against an Elite and it took him basically 5 arcs to catch up with him since his debut. (Assuming they are equal in Rof) That to this day most likely baffles Vegeta because he was the Prince right? Royal Blood and all that, no one should have a higher status except his father. It somewhat mirrors the "rags to riches" when it comes to the basics but instead using Strength and overcoming ranks and statuses. Instead of Goku being told he'd never be anything or have money, he was basically looked at as he'd never amount to anything in power.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:13 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:"Greatest rivalries in all of anime/Shonen?" Maybe. Debateable.

"All of fiction?" No. Not even close. Like, not even in the top 100 close.

The rivalry is incredibly shallow, and almost completely one-sided on Vegeta's part. Goku doesn't particularly care. The first half of your last paragraph is entirely baseless conjecture. Goku never cared about Vegeta becoming stronger as a person or any of that nonsense. Goku wanted a guy he could fight. In the Buu Arc, Goku barely gave Vegeta the time of day, and Vegeta, because he wanted attention from his man crush, decided to throw a tantrum, sell his soul to the devil, and kill off a bunch of onlookers.

This "rivalry" is nothing more than Vegeta being so desperate to prove himself relevant that he's manufactured an imaginary version of Goku that actually cares about competing with him.

Here's a quote from Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn that perfectly sums up their relationship. I'll let you all figure out who's supposed to represent Vegeta and who is supposed to be Goku:

Oscar: Hi, Kieran. How are you?
Kieran: What the... Oscar! How I loathe that name! Don't give me such pleasant greetings! I care not for them!
Oscar: What did I do now?
Kieran: Oh ho! Don't tell me you've forgotten our second year of enlistment! The year we completed horsemanship? There was a final race to end the year... My beloved horse and I were flawless, but you beat us by the smallest of margins!
Oscar: Huh? Oh, are you talking about that race you challenged me to? Yeah, that was fun... But I thought the distance between us was at least three lengths--
Kieran: Ha! LIAR! Deceitful, lying, squinty coward! That was the very moment I marked you as my archrival! Don't pretend not to care!
Oscar: Uh...wow. I had no idea--
Well, in my opinion it's the greatest rivalry in all of fiction.

If you look at it purely at how even they are then yes, you could say that it's not really a rivalry but I'm looking at it from the perspective of their relationship and what they represent and how the gap between them exists. Part of Goku did care, Goku would rather have his enemies become good people than stay evil, why else did he made that speech to Kid Buu about wishing he'd come back as a good person? Also, when Goku showed up to fight Recoome he said something along the lines of "So Vegeta hasn't turned good." implying that part of him was disappointed in Vegeta still being evil. Goku from the Cell arc onwards cared a great deal more about the future of earth and his friends.

Vegeta wanted to regain the pride he lost from Goku, and Goku's one day on earth was his only chance at doing so. Vegeta never manufactured an imaginary version of Goku but rather couldn't stomach and comprehend how Goku managed to best him all the time until his speech during the Kid Buu fight. It's very understandable for him to did what he did if you look carefully at Vegeta's development up to that point.

Vegeta said himself that he couldn't fathom how Goku doesn't share the same detest as Vegeta does that Androids surpassed a Super Saiyan, for him it was a spat in the face on what he grew up believing, but for Goku it was a relief. The Saiyans, like I said, are a very prideful race. But Goku's pride isn't like the typical Saiyan due to his purity.

Also, are you forgetting when Goku fought for the Saiyans because of Vegeta? Goku said it himself that he respects Vegeta's pride and wanted to share some of it. Since Goku is a Saiyan, he understood Vegeta's pride and how tormenting it must've been for him to be Frieza's puppet for the majority of his life, and how hard it must have been for him to beg for Goku's help. Are you telling me after something like that Goku wouldn't care for Vegeta?

The whole idea behind Goku and Vegeta isn't the most original concept for a rivalry, but its execution is unrivalled if you ask me.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by ABED » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:34 pm

Actually, Goku does care whether Vegeta is stronger than him. It's one sided in its obsession, but that's justifiable in that they have very different personalities. Goku wanted to become stronger than Vegeta. After he does that, the rivalry does become more one sided, but that is still interesting. It burns Vegeta up to the point that he makes one last effort to revert back to his evil ways to destroy his arch-enemy only to figure out that he changed in his core. The fact that it's shallow doesn't make it uninteresting.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:39 pm

ABED wrote:It burns Vegeta up to the point that he makes one last effort to revert back to his evil ways to destroy his arch-enemy only to figure out that he changed in his core. The fact that it's shallow doesn't make it uninteresting.
I'd say it added even greater depth to Vegeta's character, mainly due to how he came to the realization of how much he's changed.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:17 pm

I would say TeamFourStar's "I am finally stronger than you!" "Neat!" "**** you!" sums their relationship nicely. Goku is not threatened, compelled, or even particularly invested in Vegeta, simply far more patient with him. He might have believed Vegeta could reform, as Vegeta suspects in the last leg of the Buu fight, and I think Vegeta's parting words before throwing down with Freeza did stick with him, but never does he treat Vegeta as anything that might suggest a rivalry, at least not until after the Buu arc.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by Xeztin » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:31 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:I would say TeamFourStar's "I am finally stronger than you!" "Neat!" "**** you!" sums their relationship nicely. Goku is not threatened, compelled, or even particularly invested in Vegeta, simply far more patient with him. He might have believed Vegeta could reform, as Vegeta suspects in the last leg of the Buu fight, and I think Vegeta's parting words before throwing down with Freeza did stick with him, but never does he treat Vegeta as anything that might suggest a rivalry, at least not until after the Buu arc.
If he thought of Vegeta as a rival or a threat then I highly doubt he'd tell every villain he comes up against "If you wasn't so rotten to the core, we could have been good rivals"! Why would he be looking for a rival when he has one? I know you can have multiple rivals but I don't think he feels Vegeta is one simply because he was never on par with him until SSJB and he's probably about to leave him again. Let's say Freeza turned good and became his rival, after he surpassed Freeza and had no more use for him then he'd probably not take him seriously anymore, but of course Freeza would hold a grudge and continue trying to surpass him like Vegeta does.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by B » Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:35 am

Goku does not give anyone special treatment or affection. I know this drives Western fans nuts, but that's the character. He would perform the same amount of heroism for a stranger as he would for his family, and he would disregard all of them just as quickly in his attempt to fight strong guys(or if they turn out to be dicks like Raditz). So yes, on a base "Goku is simple" level, he "cares" for Vegeta. But to imply their bond is steeped in some mutual understanding is crazy. Vegeta is a bad person. He is a selfish person. His goals are not to be strong in and of itself, but to be the strongest among all others. He wants to belittle people and show off just how much better he thinks he is; something Goku was taught by Kame Sennin to absolutely not be the reason you seek strength. His ultimate plight throughout the series is that there is a guy who isn't a gigantic crybaby like him, but is still stronger than him. Vegeta can't fathom that Goku doesn't understand how "important" and "great" he is. There's absolutely nothing sympathetic about it. What happens in the Buu arc is enjoyable because he's learned, or at least beginning to learn, some humility and people to care for besides himself; not because he once again isn't being "respected" for his power by Goku. It's not sad that he's being controlled(because he really isn't...?), the sad part is his sacrifice was a noble one and then Buu sprouts back up anyway. Vegeta performed an honorable act, probably the first in his life, and it failed. Honest failure is a key component in drama.

We can hypothesize and speculate on how much Vegeta's childhood played a part in his behavior, but his Freeza arc death more or less sums up where his head is at: He resents having to be an underling because he is Vegeta, The Prince of Saiyans. Any emotional attachment to the death of certain individuals like his father are minimal to non-existant. It's ultimately steeped in pettiness; Vegeta wants Freeza to be a killed by a Saiyan because he suppressed Saiyans, and ergo suppressed Vegeta. Freeza wouldn't like that. That is, of course, fairly reasonable considering it's Freeza of all people, but I absolutely do not subscribe to the idea Vegeta is this special snowflake brimming with potential that Freeza snuffed out. He's mad he's a slave, like any slave would be.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:35 pm

Goku does not give anyone special treatment or affection. I know this drives Western fans nuts, but that's the character. He would perform the same amount of heroism for a stranger as he would for his family, and he would disregard all of them just as quickly in his attempt to fight strong guys
And I know a lot of people who say this will dislike when I say this - I think you're wrong. Goku would not have turned Super Saiyan for anyone other than the people he loves, be it Gohan or Kuririn.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by voltlunok » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:58 pm

ABED wrote:
Goku does not give anyone special treatment or affection. I know this drives Western fans nuts, but that's the character. He would perform the same amount of heroism for a stranger as he would for his family, and he would disregard all of them just as quickly in his attempt to fight strong guys
And I know a lot of people who say this will dislike when I say this - I think you're wrong. Goku would not have turned Super Saiyan for anyone other than the people he loves, be it Gohan or Kuririn.
I don't think you're getting the full point being made. Goku's love for his friends and family isn't being questioned. Yes, he cares deeply for Krillin, that's a fact. But he doesn't care more for one person over another. I honestly think Goku would have gone SSJ if it was Gohan or Piccolo who went boom like that, or even Chi-Chi. He doesn't treat people like they are more important to him then another. He kinda cares equally for his friends and family. I don't think Goku invests any special emotions into Vegeta like some seem to think he does since overall, he's already surpassed Vegeta, multiple times even.

I think its hard for Goku to have a rival because he's the kind of character who always looks forward, never back. His mentality seems to be "Ok, I surpassed Vegeta, now to surpass Freeza. Ok, I surpassed Freeza, time to surpass the androids! K, Surpassed them, now to surpass Cell." and so on and so on. He lives to break limits, not compete with people. I think overall that's what B is trying to point out.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta - An analysis on their rivalry

Post by ABED » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:39 pm

I honestly think Goku would have gone SSJ if it was Gohan or Piccolo who went boom like that, or even Chi-Chi.
I don't know about Piccolo, but sure, Gohan and Chichi are his family.


I think its hard for Goku to have a rival because he's the kind of character who always looks forward, never back.
I get what you're saying and I think there's some truth to it, but I think Goku has a greater sense of rivalry when he's weaker than his opponent, but not as much when he surpasses them. However, that's not to say he doesn't still feel a sense of competitiveness. He still uses people like Piccolo and Vegeta as motivation to push himself. This isn't me reading between the lines, it's explicitly why he refrains from killing Piccolo and Vegeta. It's a rivalry of sorts, just a more productive and healthier rivalry on his part.
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