Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

Seems fine Fat Boo being 2x Gohan SSJ2, but Good Boo must be stronger than Majin Vegeta/Goku SSJ2 and Good Boo is <50% than Fat Boo.

Why?

[ahill1]

Wait, wait, wait... I did Fat Boo ( initial ) roughly 2x stronger than Gohan SSJ, while it should be Gohan SSJ2 lol. This would only work if Gohan was only a SSJ in the tournament, but he was a SSJ2.

I think the story would make much more sense if Gohan was only a SSJ in the tournament.

Seems fine Fat Boo being 2x Gohan SSJ2, but Good Boo must be stronger than Majin Vegeta/Goku SSJ2 and Good Boo is <50% than Fat Boo.

Why?

Well Good Boo gave more fight to Kid Boo than SSJ2 Vegeta did. Unless Vegeta lost his Majin power.

[Kaboom]

Well Good Boo gave more fight to Kid Boo than SSJ2 Vegeta did. Unless Vegeta lost his Majin power.

We don't really know for sure how strong Mister Boo was supposed to be in that final battle. He very well could have regained his former power somehow through all the absorption shenanigans.

But even if he didn't get that power back, he doesn't have to be stronger than Vegeta. His haxed regeneration and stamina could be to thank for him lasting so much longer. Even if their strength is similar, Boo's going to be able to instantly recover from attacks that would outright cripple Vegeta immediately.

[ahill1]

Well Good Boo gave more fight to Kid Boo than SSJ2 Vegeta did. Unless Vegeta lost his Majin power.

We don't really know for sure how strong Mister Boo was supposed to be in that final battle. He very well could have regained his former power somehow through all the absorption shenanigans.

But even if he didn't get that power back, he doesn't have to be stronger than Vegeta. His haxed regeneration and stamina could be to thank for him lasting so much longer. Even if their strength is similar, Boo's going to be able to instantly recover from attacks that would outright cripple Vegeta immediately.

Mister Boo was found inside the stomach of Super Boo, then he is probably the Boo who lost to the grey's one.

Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P5.3
Context: as pure Boo beats up on good Boo some more
Vegeta: “…This is bad…Have you noticed, Kakarot?...The fatso’s power is falling…If it’s Boo against Boo, then he can take damage…”

Vegeta pretty much stated that if it's boo against Boo, he can take damage. So his infinite stamina was not the issue here.

[Kaboom]

Mister Boo was found inside the stomach of Super Boo, then he is probably the Boo who lost to the grey's one.

That doesn't mean his power stayed reduced. Boo-on-Boo absorption is kind of whacky, with extra power vanishing and reappearing in odd ways. It's not unlikely that he somehow got his lost power back during it all.

I'm not saying for sure that he did, just offering it as one of two easy explanations for Boo's performance later.

Vegeta pretty much stated that if it's boo against Boo, he can take damage. So his infinite stamina was not the issue here.

Yes, he lost power gradually. But he was still able to bounce back and regenerate from a lot of abuse at first.


My larger point is that Fat Boo being roughly twice as strong as the SS2s is anything but "impossible." Not when the so-called problems it presents can be explained and waved away this easily.

[ahill1]

@Kaboom

Got it. I really like Fat Boo being roughly 2x stronger than Teen Gohan SSJ2, But I was not sure what to do about the Good Boo thing. But do you think the fight between Goku SSJ3 and Fat Boo suggested a >2x gap ? If so, why Piccolo had to ask if Goku really could defeat Fat Boo with SSJ3 ?

[DanielSSJ]

@Kaboom

Got it. I really like Fat Boo being roughly 2x stronger than Teen Gohan SSJ2, But I was not sure what to do about the Good Boo thing. But do you think the fight between Goku SSJ3 and Fat Boo suggested a >2x gap ? If so, why Piccolo had to ask if Goku really could defeat Fat Boo with SSJ3 ?

Because Goku was suppressing his power. His goal in that fight was to stall for time, not beat Boo. The more power he used, the less time he'd have to teach the kids fusion. It all comes down to Goku wanting the new generation to take care of things, even if he could've solved the problem on his own in the first place.

[Kaboom]

Not necessarily "suppressing" his power, a.k.a. actually altering his power level like he can do in lower forms. Just pulling his punches and not trying very hard at all. We've seen lots of other instances before then where even if someone can't alter their battle power like the Earth crew can, just their level of effort can affect what power others can sense from them.

[Draconic]

I think Fat Buu is 3, maybe 3.5, times SSJ2 Gohan. During their battle, Fat Buu was toying with him, so in that fight he might have only been 1.5x him. Then, since SSJ3 is 4x SSJ2, and Goku was holding back in his fight with Fat Buu, the gap seems about right. Then, when Buu split in two, Grey Buu was 2 times as strong as SSJ2 and Good Buu 1.5x times, which is why he did marginally better than Vegeta against Kid Buu.

Super Buu could probably be somewhere along 5-5.5x stronger than SSJ2, making him 1.5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which would be enough so that Goku would think he stood no chance (combined with regeneration hacks I think it is enough).

Then Kid Buu is then 4 times as strong as SSJ2, on par with SSJ3, but because Goku was alive and therefore having a harder time to use the form that he did against Fat Buu, the battle went in Buu's favor. Goku might have thought he could have won without a Genki Dama, since we know stuff like Kamehameha and the such concentrate one's power and is stronger than the user (as seen in the Raditz fight) so a good shot with something like that could have brought him the win.

[ekrolo2]

I think Fat Buu is 3, maybe 3.5, times SSJ2 Gohan. During their battle, Fat Buu was toying with him, so in that fight he might have only been 1.5x him. Then, since SSJ3 is 4x SSJ2, and Goku was holding back in his fight with Fat Buu, the gap seems about right. Then, when Buu split in two, Grey Buu was 2 times as strong as SSJ2 and Good Buu 1.5x times, which is why he did marginally better than Vegeta against Kid Buu.

Super Buu could probably be somewhere along 5-5.5x stronger than SSJ2, making him 1.5 times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, which would be enough so that Goku would think he stood no chance (combined with regeneration hacks I think it is enough).

Then Kid Buu is then 4 times as strong as SSJ2, on par with SSJ3, but because Goku was alive and therefore having a harder time to use the form that he did against Fat Buu, the battle went in Buu's favor. Goku might have thought he could have won without a Genki Dama, since we know stuff like Kamehameha and the such concentrate one's power and is stronger than the user (as seen in the Raditz fight) so a good shot with something like that could have brought him the win.

I agree with most of those numbers except Super Boo, he'd have to be a lot stronger than 5 times more than a Super Saiyan 2 unless you're ignoring Super Saiyan Gotenks being above SSJ3 Goku. If you're not then I'd say he has to be a good 15 times stronger at the very least to justify not getting completely murdered by Gotenks.

[Draconic]

I agree with most of those numbers except Super Boo, he'd have to be a lot stronger than 5 times more than a Super Saiyan 2 unless you're ignoring Super Saiyan Gotenks being above SSJ3 Goku. If you're not then I'd say he has to be a good 15 times stronger at the very least to justify not getting completely murdered by Gotenks.

Actually, I agree. When I made up the numbers, I settled for Fat Buu and Kid Buu to be as such, but I literally couldn't find any possible and logical way to chose something for him. It also doesn't help that I somehow forgot totally about Gotenks and only thought about Ultimate Gohan.

[Khin]

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Spoiler:

Gotenks
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj3 :

Gogeta
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Vegetto
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Super Boo :

Bootenks :

Boohan :

Ultimate Gohan :

[ekrolo2]

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Spoiler:

Gotenks
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj3 :

Gogeta
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Vegetto
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Super Boo :

Bootenks :

Boohan :

Ultimate Gohan :

Gotenks
---Base : 800 million (or on par with Semi-Perfect Cell)
---SSj : 40 billion
---SSj3 : 320 billion

Gogeta
---Base : 1 billion (or on par with Grade 2 Vegeta against Semi-Perfect Cell)
---SSj : 50 billion
---SSj2 : 100 billion
---SSj3 : 400 billion

Vegetto
---Base : 20 billion
---SSj : 1 trillion (or a 0.9 on the God Scale)
---SSj2 : 2 trillion (1.8 on the God Scale)
---SSj3 : 4 trillion (7.2 on the God Scale)

Super Boo : 300 billion
--- Bootenks: 620 billion
--- Boocolo: 302 billion
--- Boohan: 750 billion

Ultimate Gohan : 450 billion

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Spoiler:

Gotenks
---Base : 1
---SSj : 50
---SSj3 : 1,000

Gogeta
---Base : 1.2
---SSj : 60
---SSj2 : 300
---SSj3 : 1,200

Vegetto
---Base : 60
---SSj : 3,000
---SSj2 : 15,000
---SSj3 : 60,000

Super Boo : 800

Bootenks : 1,800

Boohan : 2,000

Ultimate Gohan : 1,200

[apex_pretador]

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Spoiler:

Gotenks
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj3 :

Gogeta
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Vegetto
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Super Boo :

Bootenks :

Boohan :

Ultimate Gohan :

Gotenks :

Base - perfect cell
SS - SS3 goku (post HTC) , fat buu (pre HTC)
SS3 - 2x SS gotenks

Gogeta :

base - super perfect cell
SS - 5x buuhan
SS2 - 10x buuhan , < 0.5% beerus
SS3 - 20x buuhan , > 0.5% beerus

Vegetto :

base - Majin vegeta
SS - 8x buuhan
SS2 - 16x buuhan , SS4 goku (initial)
SS3 - 32x buuhan , 1% beerus , SS4 goku (beyond limit)

Super buu :

Base - 1.8x SS3 goku
Buu-piccolo - 2x SS3 goku , buff buu
Buutenks - 4x SS3 goku
Buuhan - 4.5x SS3 goku , SS baby vegeta

Gohan :

Base - 11 million
SS - Slightly above cell jr
SS2 - Slightly above PC FP
___post training___
SS - above CG gohan
SS2 - slightly above majin vegeta
Ultimate - 2.5x SS3 goku , 1.25x SS3 gotenks

[apex_pretador]

It follows from INCORRECT assumption that SS3 is 4x SS2 for goku.

How is it incorrect? Because you say it is? Also, it is not an "assumption". It's an official statement coming from supplementary material that anyone has the right to take as credible or not so.

The only thing you've shown for SSJ3 not being that strong is a subjective interpretation on how Gohan's collected power works with meter's readings and whether or not it specifically mentions Buu's power as a whole or just the power needed to be "jump started".

1. My entire debate was based on the point that except daiz, there is nothing to support the belief that SS3 = 4x SS2 goku. Remember that daiz is not canon, & we must not take daiz as such. The entire point of debate was to actually verify / proof the power of SS3 vs SS2.

2. Babidi stated it more than once that majin buu will awake at half power if he was awaken at current state (gohan SS2 energy)

3. Fat buu can't access his "true" power due to fat kaioshin's influence. This is why he split up when he became enraged.

4. Buu himself said that majin vegeta hurt him a little

5. Mr buu doesn't need to be necessarily weaker than fat buu's accessible power, he only needs to be weaker than his "true" power (super buu). So, mr buu is less than half of super buu, not fat buu.

6. Fat buu can't be 40% of SS3 goku. Yes, goku could've destroyed him, but he didn't do it because he wanted to teach kids fusion & not waste his energy. If he was 2.5x fatty, he could kill him in one blast & go teach kids fusion.

7. Piccolo said that buu is not the type of opponent on which ganging up will work, not that he's too strong for 2 SS2's.

8. "INITIAL" power of fat buu wasn't 2x gohan. Majin vegeta & goku lol'd at his initial power.

Seems fine Fat Boo being 2x Gohan SSJ2, but Good Boo must be stronger than Majin Vegeta/Goku SSJ2 and Good Boo is <50% than Fat Boo. Therefore Fat Boo being only 2x Teen Gohan SSJ2 is a impossibility.

I have a theory that only Initial Fat Boo ( without power up ) is ~2x Teen Gohan SSJ2. Teen Gohan SSJ2 is ~45% of Fat Boo ( initial ). It fits pretty well with Gohan thinking that with his real power ( SSJ2 IMO ), he could manage something against Fat Boo ( initial ).


Teen Gohan 600
--- SSJ 30,000
--- SSJ2/real power 60,000 ( 45% of initial Fat Boo/ could manage something against his initial power )

Vegeta 675
--- SSJ 33,750
--- SSJ2 67,500

Majin Vegeta 800
--- SSJ 40,000
--- SSJ2 80,000

Son Goku 800
--- SSJ 40,000
--- SSJ2 80,000
--- SSJ3 320,000

Fat Boo ( initial ) 66,000 ( roughly 2x stronger than Gohan SSJ2 )
--- Powered up 90,000 ( stronger than Majin Vegeta and Goku SSJ2 )
--- Full Power 270,000 ( weaker than Goku SSJ3 by a noticeable amount )

See above points, especially 5,6 & 8

Good buu needs to be weaker than real/full power of buu, not the apparent/accessible power.

[Kamiccolo9]

Babidi had never met Majin Buu, did not know how strong he was, and Buu powered up multiple times after hatching. Why are we treating Babidi's comments as relevant, again?

[DanielSSJ]

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Gotenks
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj3 :

Gogeta
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Vegetto
---Base :
---SSj :
---SSj2 :
---SSj3 :

Super Boo :

Bootenks :

Boohan :

Ultimate Gohan :

In units of millions

-- Gotenks (post RoSaT) - 500
SSJ - 25,000
SSJ2 - 50,000
SSJ3 - 200,000

--Gogeta - 1,350
SSJ - 67,500
SSJ2 - 135,000
SSJ3 - 540,000

--Vegetto - 18,000
SSJ - 900,000
SSJ2 - 1,800,000
SSJ3 - 7,200,000

--Evil Boo - 180,000
+ Gotenks - 380,000
+ Gohan - 430,000

--Ultimate Gohan - 250,000

[Kaboom]

1. My entire debate was based on the point that except daiz, there is nothing to support the belief that SS3 = 4x SS2 goku. Remember that daiz is not canon, & we must not take daiz as such. The entire point of debate was to actually verify / proof the power of SS3 vs SS2.

Daiz is not in any way involved. If you mean "the Daizenshuu," the guidebooks from the 90's, then they're not involved either. The power boosts for Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were revealed to us in one of the Super Exciting Guide books from 2009.

That said, there's no point or merit in arguing "there's nothing to support <thing> except for <guidebooks which say that thing>." That guidebook in this case is a solid, reliable source saying something that's not contradictory to anything else. You don't get to say it doesn't count or that it's wrong just because you don't want to use it or it doesn't mesh with your thoughts on other stuff.

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Let's see... in units of millions:

Spoiler:

Gotenks (post-RoSaT): 260
-- Super Saiyan: 13,000
-- Super Saiyan 3: 100,000

Ultimate Gohan: 120,000

Gogeta: 5,000
-- Super Saiyan: 250,000
-- Super Saiyan 2 (hypothetical): 500,000
-- Super Saiyan 3 (hypothetical): 2,000,000

Vegetto: 10,000
-- Super Saiyan: 500,000
-- Super Saiyan 2 (hypothetical): 1,000,000
-- Super Saiyan 3 (hypothetical): 4,000,000

Evil Boo: 90.000
+ Gotenks: 190,000
+ Gohan: 210,000

[ZombieVito]

Where do you guys have these characters at ?

Gotenks
---Base : 250,000,000
---SSj : 12,500,000,000
---SSj3 : 100,000,000,000

Gogeta
---Base : 450,000,000
---SSj : 22,500,000,000
---SSj2 : 45,000,000,000
---SSj3 : 180,000,000,000

Vegetto
---Base : 8,000,000,000
---SSj : 400,000,000,000
---SSj2 : 800,000,000,000
---SSj3 : 3,200,000,000,000 (3.2 on the god scale)

Super Boo : 80,000,000,000

Bootenks : 180,000,000,000

Boohan : 200,000,000,000

Ultimate Gohan : 120,000,000,000