"Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:19 pm

Re: Watanabe

Thank you! I'd forgotten his name and felt bad that I had forgotten it.
Sodhi wrote:
Chuquita wrote:I've mostly given up hope on the animation for Super. That's part of why I've decided to follow the writers instead (the other part is each writer has their own stuff they tend to focus on).
I am so happy that first two episodes of uni.6 will be done by king ryu. It would give that arc a decent start just from writing perspective. As for the animation it could get better if they have been focusing on that arc.Although I have to say episode 28, the starting episode does not have a really good animation supervisor(imo).
I'm so excited for King Ryû's return. I feel like it's been forever since they've been in rotation (checking, their most recent was #21/November 29th).
This coming weekend is Toshifumi Fukushima - I like his Gokû a lot (the Gokû he writes is sweet in that slice-of-life-character way) so I'm anticipating this upcoming ep too.

I think animation-wise it's gonna be a rough year overall; Toei has even more projects going on this year than last year.

It'll just be nice to finally get to new material.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:30 pm

Watanabe Koudai was an animation supervisor and key animator for Dragon Ball Z: Fukkatsu no F, but his stuff was heavily filtered through Yamamuro or he was asked to not draw in his usual style.
raulvalente wrote:There's one thing I don't understand. Is it the financial aspect that keeps Toei from expanding the production crew? By that I mean hiring more animation supervisors to make the rotation between episodes be less sufocating. Like... bringing Yamamuro, Iseki or Seizo to the table, or, I don't know, another crew of competent animators so that each team has a reasonable amount of time to work on an episode. At least for U6 arc the episodes shouldn't be this rushed.
As Sodhi has mentioned, it's not really 'money'. The production crew care enough to spend extra money on additional sakuga kantoku (animation supervisors). A single sakkan is paid about $3,000 US dollars for an episode. Hiring extra sakkan doesn't always mean that the money is being split between those three, either, so we're talking about spending potentially $9,000 for three animation supervisors, assuming that is the deal that was worked out.

Animators are hard to come by right now, too. Many, many series, films, special, commercials or cut scenes are created yearly in Japan. The production assistants have probably exhausted their available contacts with freelancers and small studios that take sub-contracting work are stretched thin simply trying to finish their prior commitments. If the production crew doesn't know for far in advance their series is going to run it makes it even harder to schedule ahead.

My guess is that Iseki and Toma are off either working on other projects or simply are well off enough that they can pick and choose their projects.

What Dragon Ball Super needs most badly right now is to sacrifice some episodes. Let Yashima Yoshitaka solo key animate his next few episodes and try to reassign the key animators he has helping him on another episode. Having Yashima scribble out some episodes will produce bad episodes but it might be what helps save other episodes. If possible Tate Naoki needs to be allowed nine weeks to work on a single episode instead of five-to-seven. Nine will give him enough time to really polish his work, especially if his episodes are given a higher number of in-between drawings.

Another thing Dragon Ball Super needs to do is bring back long recaps. Five or seven minutes for a recap will help refine the look of the rest of the episode.

Dragon Ball Super has been doing something Toei Animation has mostly refused to do over its long history: allow storyboards to be drawn by someone other than the episode director. Typically, the rule is that the storyboard must be drawn by the episode director, but Dragon Ball Super has broken from this tradition far more than any other Toei cartoon by having many, many episodes drawn first by a veteran animator or director then seen through to complete episode by a younger director. If the idea isn't to try to get ahead of schedule it is at least to train new directors.

Far too often those who discuss animation in Dragon Ball ignore half the facts in their analysis of the production. That needs to stop if we're going to get high-quality discussion out of this series.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by ArchedThunder » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:10 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Watanabe Koudai was an animation supervisor and key animator for Dragon Ball Z: Fukkatsu no F, but his stuff was heavily filtered through Yamamuro or he was asked to not draw in his usual style.
raulvalente wrote:There's one thing I don't understand. Is it the financial aspect that keeps Toei from expanding the production crew? By that I mean hiring more animation supervisors to make the rotation between episodes be less sufocating. Like... bringing Yamamuro, Iseki or Seizo to the table, or, I don't know, another crew of competent animators so that each team has a reasonable amount of time to work on an episode. At least for U6 arc the episodes shouldn't be this rushed.
As Sodhi has mentioned, it's not really 'money'. The production crew care enough to spend extra money on additional sakuga kantoku (animation supervisors). A single sakkan is paid about $3,000 US dollars for an episode. Hiring extra sakkan doesn't always mean that the money is being split between those three, either, so we're talking about spending potentially $9,000 for three animation supervisors, assuming that is the deal that was worked out.

Animators are hard to come by right now, too. Many, many series, films, special, commercials or cut scenes are created yearly in Japan. The production assistants have probably exhausted their available contacts with freelancers and small studios that take sub-contracting work are stretched thin simply trying to finish their prior commitments. If the production crew doesn't know for far in advance their series is going to run it makes it even harder to schedule ahead.

My guess is that Iseki and Toma are off either working on other projects or simply are well off enough that they can pick and choose their projects.

What Dragon Ball Super needs most badly right now is to sacrifice some episodes. Let Yashima Yoshitaka solo key animate his next few episodes and try to reassign the key animators he has helping him on another episode. Having Yashima scribble out some episodes will produce bad episodes but it might be what helps save other episodes. If possible Tate Naoki needs to be allowed nine weeks to work on a single episode instead of five-to-seven. Nine will give him enough time to really polish his work, especially if his episodes are given a higher number of in-between drawings.

Another thing Dragon Ball Super needs to do is bring back long recaps. Five or seven minutes for a recap will help refine the look of the rest of the episode.

Dragon Ball Super has been doing something Toei Animation has mostly refused to do over its long history: allow storyboards to be drawn by someone other than the episode director. Typically, the rule is that the storyboard must be drawn by the episode director, but Dragon Ball Super has broken from this tradition far more than any other Toei cartoon by having many, many episodes drawn first by a veteran animator or director then seen through to complete episode by a younger director. If the idea isn't to try to get ahead of schedule it is at least to train new directors.

Far too often those who discuss animation in Dragon Ball ignore half the facts in their analysis of the production. That needs to stop if we're going to get high-quality discussion out of this series.
I'm still hopeful that these past few episodes have been them sacrificing episodes so they can get ahead of schedule for Universe 6. With the exception of the broadcast version episode 5 the series was pretty okay, I mean there were plenty of weird drawings but nothing too awful, and then episodes 10-14 were all actually pretty good and the episodes that followed weren't bad at all. I'd say the quality started to slip episode by episode starting with 21, which would actually make sense if they were starting to shift their focus onto Universe 6 a little bit more each week.
As for recaps, 5-7 minutes would be way too long, but making them a bit longer than they are now would probably be a good idea.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:22 pm

Now that I think about it, the recaps are pretty short. I wouldn't want the type of incredibly-long-recaps that One Piece has though. Those would frustrate me. >_<;; ; It's kind of impressive Super hasn't resorted to those.
Precure's still the Toei gold standard of sorts for me in terms of what their time/effort can do. It kind of makes me wish Super had more stylish character designs if that's what it would take to entice some of Toei's more skilled animators to come help out on Super.

EDIT:
Someone's posting awkward in-betweens from Z in the 2ch thread to prove awkward in-betweens aren't a Super-only thing. They remind me of Tanooki Kuribo's Z in-betweens, but they don't look like ones I've seen before:
Source: http://mastiff.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/anime/1452357423/
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Sodhi » Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:48 am

I already had low hopes for episode 28's animation, but now the hopes are even lower. Yashima Yoshitaka did some key animation for episode 26 and his next episode is 28

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by ArchedThunder » Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:34 pm

Sodhi wrote:I already had low hopes for episode 28's animation, but now the hopes are even lower. Yashima Yoshitaka did some key animation for episode 26 and his next episode is 28
28 probably won't be needing too much motion, so it hopefully won't be too bad.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by FortuneSSJ » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:59 pm

Chuquita wrote: Precure's still the Toei gold standard of sorts for me in terms of what their time/effort can do. It kind of makes me wish Super had more stylish character designs if that's what it would take to entice some of Toei's more skilled animators to come help out on Super.
Dragon Ball is not the one in fault, Toei logic is the only flawed thing here. They should have business look and prioritize the series that give them more money, which is still Dragon Ball and One Piece nowadays. Not going by the logic "This will still sell anyway." and give us scenes that are embarrassed to nowadays standards.

Also, the staff should work on what their boss tells them to do. Not working on x project, because they like it more. That's not how life is.
In my daily life, I also have to deal with things or customers that I don't want. That's part of my job. There's always the two sides of a coin and this is valid for any job out there.

Lets take that Precure example to a extreme.
Suppose no one in the staff wanted to work on Dragon ball. Reason being, they don't care about Dragon Ball and they all want to work on Precure.
Toei wanted to do new Movies and a new series, but there wasn't anyone in that staff that wanted to work on it.

We came to a point that their boss, must come forward and order them to do so.
All that great treatment that Precure is getting is ridiculous. Compared to DB/OP barely anyone knows about that franchise worldwide. It doesn't seem to do half the money these two do in Japan either. The best animators should work on their best selling series. Simple logic.

The problem is not of Dragon Ball, but of their entire work methods.
Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Chuquita » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:13 pm

I think it's that there's a lack of good animators available, meaning the small number that are available can pretty much decide which jobs they want to take on. Precure gets the love because a lot of those available animators prefer drawing cute characters in action sequences than they do cool characters. Part of why I was initially excited about ssjg Gokû was since it was cute I was hoping it'd attract some of the animators who work on Precure, but then ssjg got retired before it even had a chance to happen and its replacement is a ssj1 color swap and I was all "oh well; sadness" about it.

Some of those really good animators are freelance too, meaning they don't just work for Toei; the studios come to them.

It's like the opposite of a lot of job markets; there's plenty of animation jobs, but not enough skilled animators to go around.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Sodhi » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:56 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote: Precure's still the Toei gold standard of sorts for me in terms of what their time/effort can do. It kind of makes me wish Super had more stylish character designs if that's what it would take to entice some of Toei's more skilled animators to come help out on Super.

Dragon Ball is not the one in fault, Toei logic is the only flawed thing here. They should have business look and prioritize the series that give them more money, which is still Dragon Ball and One Piece nowadays. Not going by the logic "This will still sell anyway." and give us scenes that are embarrassed to nowadays standards.

Also, the staff should work on what their boss tells them to do. Not working on x project, because they like it more. That's not how life is.
In my daily life, I also have to deal with things or customers that I don't want. That's part of my job. There's always the two sides of a coin and this is valid for any job out there.

Lets take that Precure example to a extreme.
Suppose no one in the staff wanted to work on Dragon ball. Reason being, they don't care about Dragon Ball and they all want to work on Precure.
Toei wanted to do new Movies and a new series, but there wasn't anyone in that staff that wanted to work on it.

We came to a point that their boss, must come forward and order them to do so.
All that great treatment that Precure is getting is ridiculous. Compared to DB/OP barely anyone knows about that franchise worldwide. It doesn't seem to do half the money these two do in Japan either. The best animators should work on their best selling series. Simple logic.

The problem is not of Dragon Ball, but of their entire work methods.
If the few good animators that toei has are not given a choice of working where they feel the most comfortable in, then everything is going to look shit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:58 pm

You can't force anyone to work on Dragon Ball. Most of PreCure's good animators don't even work for Toei, either.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by TripleRach » Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:29 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:All that great treatment that Precure is getting is ridiculous. Compared to DB/OP barely anyone knows about that franchise worldwide. It doesn't seem to do half the money these two do in Japan either. The best animators should work on their best selling series. Simple logic.
Doesn't this just prove that animation quality doesn't affect profitability? What motivation does Toei have to change their practices?

Sailor Moon Crystal's animation was not very popular either, and the series director even quit Toei immediately after it ended due to apparent production frustrations. Yet it was still successful enough to get a new season this year.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Basaku » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:39 pm

TripleRach wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:All that great treatment that Precure is getting is ridiculous. Compared to DB/OP barely anyone knows about that franchise worldwide. It doesn't seem to do half the money these two do in Japan either. The best animators should work on their best selling series. Simple logic.
Doesn't this just prove that animation quality doesn't affect profitability? What motivation does Toei have to change their practices?
Prestige, good word of mouth, broad appeal, long-term standing and legacy of the franchise. Of course it matters financially. Classic properties may be immune to flopping because they've been around long enough, but they're not guaranteed the highest profits and influence unless they deliver quality with new products. The issue is that Toei/Shueisha don't think very long-term and how to provide best care for their biggest properties to get the maximum profit, they're contet with mediocrity and lesser profit.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Sodhi » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:18 pm

Basaku wrote: Prestige, good word of mouth, broad appeal, long-term standing and legacy of the franchise. Of course it matters financially. Classic properties may be immune to flopping because they've been around long enough, but they're not guaranteed the highest profits and influence unless they deliver quality with new products. The issue is that Toei/Shueisha don't think very long-term and how to provide best care for their biggest properties to get the maximum profit, they're contet with mediocrity and lesser profit.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by pacz360 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:07 pm

Sodhi wrote:
Basaku wrote: Prestige, good word of mouth, broad appeal, long-term standing and legacy of the franchise. Of course it matters financially. Classic properties may be immune to flopping because they've been around long enough, but they're not guaranteed the highest profits and influence unless they deliver quality with new products. The issue is that Toei/Shueisha don't think very long-term and how to provide best care for their biggest properties to get the maximum profit, they're contet with mediocrity and lesser profit.
Welcome to the world of TOEI animation, one of the most successful if not the most successful animation company in Japan.
So pretty much wwe here?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by coola » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:36 pm

Basaku wrote:
TripleRach wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:All that great treatment that Precure is getting is ridiculous. Compared to DB/OP barely anyone knows about that franchise worldwide. It doesn't seem to do half the money these two do in Japan either. The best animators should work on their best selling series. Simple logic.
Doesn't this just prove that animation quality doesn't affect profitability? What motivation does Toei have to change their practices?
Prestige, good word of mouth, broad appeal, long-term standing and legacy of the franchise. Of course it matters financially. Classic properties may be immune to flopping because they've been around long enough, but they're not guaranteed the highest profits and influence unless they deliver quality with new products. The issue is that Toei/Shueisha don't think very long-term and how to provide best care for their biggest properties to get the maximum profit, they're contet with mediocrity and lesser profit.
Sorry if I'm too harsh, but, i think it is all our fault, let's take a look at Viz release of Sailor Moon, it is garbage, worse than Orange Bricks, bootlegs are much better than this, yet people still buy it, because it is Sailor Moon, it is 1st complete release in US, and all that, just because something is classic and popular means, that company can throw half baked product, and we still buy it, no more, stop supporting shows, that clearly are poorly made, regardless of its brand. I wont buy Viz Sailor Moon, but Madman release, or wait for Polish releases, i will also not support Super, if Toei/Shueisha don't care, why would i give them money?
Examples of "excellent" Sailor Stars remaster
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 0504_o.jpg
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 0407_o.jpg
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 4851_o.jpg
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hp ... 8480_o.jpg
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:14 pm

Dragon Ball Super is disposable. It exists to keep the franchise going for the short term. All projects based on Dragon Ball ultimately fall back on the original comic to be the long-term plan, not some new project. The production committee members make their decisions based on what is good for their companies in the short term because the animation industry isn't a long-term plan. Studios don't fund the majority of their projects because they don't have the money in the first place, projects are funded by sponsors and other companies. Toei Animation has to maintain those relationships with their partners, this means doing what they want for them, even if it means creating crap. Ideally the production committee members would be able to agree to beginning a production with enough production time for it to be well-done, but that isn't always possible. Chioka Kimitoshi and the production staff no doubt want to make a great series but they are strapped for time, have access to few directors, storyboard artists and animators and little money due to the general lack of profitability of producing a high-quality series continually. The series has to be a infinite cour series because that is what the sponsors (Bandai) want, a vehicle to promote their year-round array of merchandise.

There is no getting around it. If there was an alternative to simply shutting down then someone would have found it by now. This is the reality of the commercial film and television industry.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Metalwario64 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:18 pm

coola wrote:Sorry if I'm too harsh, but, i think it is all our fault, let's take a look at Viz release of Sailor Moon, it is garbage, worse than Orange Bricks, bootlegs are much better than this, yet people still buy it, because it is Sailor Moon, it is 1st complete release in US, and all that, just because something is classic and popular means, that company can throw half baked product, and we still buy it, no more, stop supporting shows, that clearly are poorly made, regardless of its brand. I wont buy Viz Sailor Moon, but Madman release, or wait for Polish releases, i will also not support Super, if Toei/Shueisha don't care, why would i give them money?
Examples of "excellent" Sailor Stars remasters
Image
What the hell is going on with their mouths here? :crazy: :wtf:
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Jan 12, 2016 9:27 pm

If Universe 6 arc doesn't improve, maybe we later get a higher quality special about it, like One Piece gets.
Those Episode Of x specials are the best thing that happened to OP anime.
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:11 pm

TOEI drew terrible animation for the original DBZ anime too. However, those with experience with TOEI knows that non important episodes usually are animated badly while more "epic" events are portrayed brilliantly. The arc we are in now is just a rehash of what TOEI already gave us in a good fashion from the movies. I'm not surprised that TOEI would not put there all in a leftover. I truly believe [from experience] the tournament will be displayed well by TOEI.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super" Animation Staff Discussion

Post by coola » Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:32 am

Metalwario64 wrote:
coola wrote:Sorry if I'm too harsh, but, i think it is all our fault, let's take a look at Viz release of Sailor Moon, it is garbage, worse than Orange Bricks, bootlegs are much better than this, yet people still buy it, because it is Sailor Moon, it is 1st complete release in US, and all that, just because something is classic and popular means, that company can throw half baked product, and we still buy it, no more, stop supporting shows, that clearly are poorly made, regardless of its brand. I wont buy Viz Sailor Moon, but Madman release, or wait for Polish releases, i will also not support Super, if Toei/Shueisha don't care, why would i give them money?
Examples of "excellent" Sailor Stars remasters
What the hell is going on with their mouths here? :crazy: :wtf:
Result of remaster process, company Viz hired is not very good at it :lol:
Image
Image
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