SSJ3 + Kaioken Goku

[theherodjl]

Ok so imagine Goku decided Kaioken really could work with SSJ3 and trained to use it just long enough to use only one technique so as not to explode messily from the Ki overload.
How powerful do you suppose he could become? I imagine a Kaioken x2 SSJ3 Goku is around SSJ3 Gotenks level and a Kaioken x3 would put him on par or above Ultimate Gohan, where do you believe a Kaioken x10 or x20 SSJ3 Goku would be?
One last thing, if Goku was evidently a Kaio-ken x100 in Lord Slug like one source says he was, might be be powerful enough to hurt Beerus with SSJ3 & Kaioken x100 + Super Kamehameha?

[DarkPrince_92]

Ok so imagine Goku decided Kaioken really could work with SSJ3 and trained to use it just long enough to use only one technique so as not to explode messily from the Ki overload.
How powerful do you suppose he could become? I imagine a Kaioken x2 SSJ3 Goku is around SSJ3 Gotenks level and a Kaioken x3 would put him on par or above Ultimate Gohan, where do you believe a Kaioken x10 or x20 SSJ3 Goku would be?
One last thing, if Goku was evidently a Kaio-ken x100 in Lord Slug like one source says he was, might be be powerful enough to hurt Beerus with SSJ3 & Kaioken x100 + Super Kamehameha?

Source?

[Darkprince410]

Between how powerful I've had Gotenks in relation to Goku (given the manga and the Daizenshuu), I legitimately think it would take anywhere from an 8x to a 100x Kaiou-ken for Ssj3 Goku to match Ssj3 Gotenks (depending on estimates of Gotenks strength), so you'd be looking at Goku needing something along the lines of a 12x to 150x Kaiou-ken to match Gohan's power. This would exceed even the Kaiou-ken Goku used against Slug in the 4th movie.

[theherodjl]

Is Gotenks really a candidate to being a hundred fold or more times stronger than Goku? I can believe anime Vegetto qualifies for this no doubt but Gotenks? At highest he would only be 8x Goku's strength and that's going by "official" numbers, fusion is broken but honestly the result of Gotenks is not nearly close to the result of Vegetto.

[Darkprince410]

Is Gotenks really a candidate to being a hundred fold or more times stronger than Goku? I can believe anime Vegetto qualifies for this no doubt but Gotenks? At highest he would only be 8x Goku's strength and that's going by "official" numbers, fusion is broken but honestly the result of Gotenks is not nearly close to the result of Vegetto.

The Daizenshuu leaves it open that Gotenks in his base form, after the boys trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, surpassed Ssj2 Vegeta. This would make him at least 400x stronger than Ssj2 Vegeta when in his Ssj3 form, which in turn would make him at least 100x stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

[Khin]

How powerful do you suppose he could become? I imagine a Kaioken x2 SSJ3 Goku is around SS Gotenks level

SSj3 Goku < SSj Gotenks.Goku would need SSj3 + Kaioken x10 to become stronger than Gotenks.(At least on my made up #)

One last thing, if Goku was evidently a Kaio-ken x100 in Lord Slug like one source says he was, might be be powerful enough to hurt Beerus with SSJ3 & Kaioken x100 + Super Kamehameha?

The difference between Goku and Beerus is around Sextillions.Have him SSj3 + Kaioken x100 Quintillion and he's still nowhere near Beerus.

[LowRyder2005]

I try to go along with the Daiz indications as usual, so Super Saiyan Gotenks is weaker than Majin Vegeta. More or less you can find a reasonable justification for Piccolo's comments without inflating the numbers even though he apparently suggests that Base Gotenks is really around (at least) Fat Buu's level.

SSJ Gotenks = 0.2
Majin Vegeta = 0.25
SSJ3 Goku = 1

Fat Buu = 0.8
Super Buu (suppressed) = 1.5
SSJ Gotenks (post-ROSAT) = 1.25

Super Buu (full power) = around SSJ3 Gotenks, stronger or weaker according to your personal ideas
SSJ3 Gotenks = 6
Gohan (Ultimate) = 8

Sooo, yeah, I suppose that saying he'd need something like a Kaioken x10 isn't that far off. Especially since I went for the "little gain" way with Gotenks.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Considering the stress that both of those techniques put on his body, he would probably explode if he tried it.

[Lord Beerus]

Didn't Goku try to pull something similar in the Otherworld Tournament, except using his SSJ form and combining the Kaioken form? And he could only use for a few seconds before getting tired.

[Darkprince410]

I try to go along with the Daiz indications as usual, so Super Saiyan Gotenks is weaker than Majin Vegeta. More or less you can find a reasonable justification for Piccolo's comments without inflating the numbers even though he apparently suggests that Base Gotenks is really around (at least) Fat Buu's level.

If you go by the Daizenshuu's indications along with the manga's, you can still easily put Ssj Gotenks well above Ma-jin Vegeta even before the boys entered the Room of Spirit and Time. All that the manga says is that Gotenks leveled up so much that he surpassed Vegeta and the others, and given the anecdotal evidence of where Gotenks sat beforehand, that can simply be taken as Gotenks in his base form having become strong enough to pass Ssj2 Vegeta.

[LowRyder2005]

True enough. I suppose that I simply don't like the Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta too much. Definitely a possibility, though, not even counting that the manga itself suggests it in more than one panel.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Goku would need a Kaioken of x1000+ to match Gotenks if you ask me.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ok so imagine Goku decided Kaioken really could work with SSJ3 and trained to use it just long enough to use only one technique so as not to explode messily from the Ki overload.
How powerful do you suppose he could become? I imagine a Kaioken x2 SSJ3 Goku is around SSJ3 Gotenks level and a Kaioken x3 would put him on par or above Ultimate Gohan, where do you believe a Kaioken x10 or x20 SSJ3 Goku would be?
One last thing, if Goku was evidently a Kaio-ken x100 in Lord Slug like one source says he was, might be be powerful enough to hurt Beerus with SSJ3 & Kaioken x100 + Super Kamehameha?

Source?

It's from a magazine/pamphlet thing that came with the movie. It's talking about the Kaio-Ken that Goku used after getting Piccolo's energy, not the SSJ form he made use of. It's a legitimate thing.

[Hot Rod]

Isn't "x100" the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2? So does that mean Goku "transformed"/used the power of Super Saiyan 2 right in Movie 4!?

[Darkprince410]

Isn't "x100" the multiplier of Super Saiyan 2? So does that mean Goku "transformed"/used the power of Super Saiyan 2 right in Movie 4!?

The Kaiou-ken that Goku used after Piccolo donated his ki to him would have been the equivalent of him going Ssj2 at that battle power, yes.

[MisterGuyMan]

I place SS3 Goku and Kid Buu above Gotenks already since that's what DB Super says and Daizenshuu already IDed Kid Buu as the strongest in the universe. So Kaio Ken would put Goku into Buuhan territory.

[Darkprince410]

I place SS3 Goku and Kid Buu above Gotenks already since that's what DB Super says and Daizenshuu already IDed Kid Buu as the strongest in the universe. So Kaio Ken would put Goku into Buuhan territory.

None of the dialogue in Super necessarily says that Goku is the strongest though, as neither of Vegeta's lines can definitively be taken that way.

His initial line, that Goku is the strongest because he defeated Buu, is effectively meaningless as he didn't defeat Buu with his own power at all (rather, the Genki Dama). It'd be like saying that Kuririn was stronger than Piccolo during the Freeza Saga because Kuririn cut Freeza's tail off with his ki-enzan, when Piccolo never did any such damage to him.

The second line, where Vegeta acknowledges that Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin, is effectively meaningless for the same reason. We already see what his standards for defining Goku as the strongest already entail (feats that didn't involve Goku's actual strength at all), so why would it be different here?

As for the Daizenshuu, it says things like that because it takes into account the anime as well as the manga, so naturally it'll be skewed by what anime filler is implemented. There are other guide books, just as official, that clearly point to Pure Buu being weaker than any of the versions of Evil Buu because he doesn't have any absorptions.

[MisterGuyMan]

None of the dialogue in Super necessarily says that Goku is the strongest though, as neither of Vegeta's lines can definitively be taken that way.

His initial line, that Goku is the strongest because he defeated Buu, is effectively meaningless as he didn't defeat Buu with his own power at all (rather, the Genki Dama). It'd be like saying that Kuririn was stronger than Piccolo during the Freeza Saga because Kuririn cut Freeza's tail off with his ki-enzan, when Piccolo never did any such damage to him.

The second line, where Vegeta acknowledges that Goku is the strongest Saiya-jin, is effectively meaningless for the same reason. We already see what his standards for defining Goku as the strongest already entail (feats that didn't involve Goku's actual strength at all), so why would it be different here?

As for the Daizenshuu, it says things like that because it takes into account the anime as well as the manga, so naturally it'll be skewed by what anime filler is implemented. There are other guide books, just as official, that clearly point to Pure Buu being weaker than any of the versions of Evil Buu because he doesn't have any absorptions.

Vegeta says there's no doubt Goku is the best in the universe after beating Kid Buu and that he, Vegeta needs to train to surpass him. The phrase 'no doubt' is pretty definitive as far as I'm concerned. Anything that can cast doubt simply can't be a consideration. 'The Daizenshu quote I'm referring to is also even more cut and dry. Kid Buu's referred to as 'the strongest in the universe' which leaves no wiggle room at all compared to the other evidence.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta says there's no doubt Goku is the best in the universe after beating Kid Buu and that he, Vegeta needs to train to surpass him. The phrase 'no doubt' is pretty definitive as far as I'm concerned.

But that's the problem. He's saying there's no doubt that Goku is the best/strongest because he defeated an enemy, even though the way he defeated said enemy was without his own power being a factor at all. Again, it would be like saying that Kuririn is stronger than Piccolo during the Freeza Saga because he damaged Freeza far more than Piccolo ever could, even though Piccolo was clearly the stronger of the two. Goku defeated Buu using the Genki Dama, so Vegeta's line cannot logically mean that Goku is the strongest because he defeated Buu. Best fighter, maybe, but certainly not the strongest.

'The Daizenshu quote I'm referring to is also even more cut and dry. Kid Buu's referred to as 'the strongest in the universe' which leaves no wiggle room at all compared to the other evidence.

Most all Daizenshuu entries just refer to Buu in general, and not specific forms of Buu, so when it makes reference to Buu being the strongest in the universe, it ends up meaning that Ma-jin Buu, as in the villain throughout the entirety of the Buu Saga, is the strongest, and not just one specific form of him. So you'll need to provide the particular line if there's one saying that the Pure Buu is the strongest.

[MisterGuyMan]

But that's the problem. He's saying there's no doubt that Goku is the best/strongest because he defeated an enemy, even though the way he defeated said enemy was without his own power being a factor at all. Again, it would be like saying that Kuririn is stronger than Piccolo during the Freeza Saga because he damaged Freeza far more than Piccolo ever could, even though Piccolo was clearly the stronger of the two. Goku defeated Buu using the Genki Dama, so Vegeta's line cannot logically mean that Goku is the strongest because he defeated Buu. Best fighter, maybe, but certainly not the strongest.

Your example isn't the same. There's TONS of doubts as to whether Krillin is stronger than Piccolo. Here Vegeta says there's no doubt that Goku is the best after Kid Buu's defeat. Vegeta doesn't even say it's directly causal. Kid Buu's destruction allowed Goku to be the best with no doubts. That's it. He doesn't say Goku is the best because he beat Kid Buu. He just says that after Kid Buu is defeated Goku is now the best. The simplest interpretation is that Kid Buu was the strongest. Goku was the next strongest or his equal. Then with no Kid Buu, Goku is the strongest now. No matter the interpretation Goku is the best once Kid Buu is out of the picture.

You're reading into the statement more than is actually there. If Kid Buu exists then Goku isn't the best. If Kid Buu doesn't exist then Goku is the best. That's really all it says. We don't need to speculate on the actual reasons or how Goku beat Kid Buu since Goku can be the strongest after Kid Buu and still need to borrow energy to beat him.

Most all Daizenshuu entries just refer to Buu in general, and not specific forms of Buu, so when it makes reference to Buu being the strongest in the universe, it ends up meaning that Ma-jin Buu, as in the villain throughout the entirety of the Buu Saga, is the strongest, and not just one specific form of him. So you'll need to provide the particular line if there's one saying that the Pure Buu is the strongest.

Here:
"Goku tried to have the next generation resolve this problem, but in the end he was the one who defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe"
http://web.archive.org/web/201111031605 ... drama#link
It identifies the Buu that is defeated by Goku as the strongest in the universe when he was defeated. Not all Buus were the strongest in the universe at all times. This is a specific Buu at a specific time. Vegito was obviously stronger than Buuhan for example.