Big Picture: another blasted list

[Herms]

Not a fan of guidebooks myself at all but from where is this (assuming is legit)?
[snip]
and I also note that on the left bottom corner of this page it says DRAGON BOOK Z Vol.7. (and as we all know Z clearly refers to the anime)

You pretty much answered your own question there: it's from Dragon Book Z vol.7, the book which came with Funi's seventh DBZ Dragon Box (and translated from the book that came with the equivalent Japanese Dragon Box).

[Speedster]

Not a fan of guidebooks myself at all but from where is this (assuming is legit)?
[snip]
and I also note that on the left bottom corner of this page it says DRAGON BOOK Z Vol.7. (and as we all know Z clearly refers to the anime)

You pretty much answered your own question there: it's from Dragon Book Z vol.7, the book which came with Funi's seventh DBZ Dragon Box (and translated from the book that came with the equivalent Japanese Dragon Box).

Thanks for letting me know. I googled Dragon Book vol. 7 but it didn't return anything so I assumed the title would be different from that page side note. Anyway regarding kid Buu's strength here is my take. For kid Buu we have official source material (anime) and official guidebooks flat out stating he is the strongest. On the other side we have subjective interpretations for what supposedly makes more sense in the manga. Interpretations that are very debatable to begin with.

For what is worth in my own headcanon that tries to marry the anime and the manga I have kid Buu as the strongest unfused form of Buu and SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan about on par. So something like that:
1. Vegetto
2. Buuhan
3. Buutenks
4. Kid Buu
5. SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan
6. SSJ3 Gotenks/Base Super Buu

Worth noting this. SSJ2 Gohan was able to pull out the Z sword. Something that 14 generations of Kaioshins were unable to pull. Was that a reference to Eastern Kaioshins only? Or did it include all the Kaioshins? Because Southern Kaioshin gave kid Buu a good fight and kid Buu was forced to absorb him. (or did kid Buu just absorbed him with the intent to increase his power?) See the problem with feats and relative performance comparisons in the Buu arc? They don't add up! Because if based on their performance in pulling out the Z sword, Southern Kaioshin was weaker than SSJ2 Gohan it would mean that kid Buu (who struggled against Southern Kaioshin) is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan (and hence Goku) but at the same time Goku needed to go SSJ3.

Another thing is that the whole Buu arc is littered with shitty plot devices purpose of which was to create contrived drama. Like Bulma saying she couldn't create another Dragon radar due to rare materials (sure...). Popo forgetting he could locate the Dragonballs without radar (like in the Freeza arc), Goku not using instant transmission to go to Capsule Corp (something he did a few chapters earlier) and Popo forgetting his carpet to get there in no time. So what makes people believe that the line in the innards of Buu that they needed fusion against base Super Buu was not yet another BS line to create artificial sense of tension out of nowhere?

[Darkprince410]

For kid Buu we have official source material (anime) and official guidebooks flat out stating he is the strongest. On the other side we have subjective interpretations for what supposedly makes more sense in the manga. Interpretations that are very debatable to begin with.

For what is worth in my own headcanon that tries to marry the anime and the manga I have kid Buu as the strongest unfused form of Buu and SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan about on par. So something like that:
1. Vegetto
2. Buuhan
3. Buutenks
4. Kid Buu
5. SSJ3 Goku/Ultimate Gohan
6. SSJ3 Gotenks/Base Super Buu

Worth noting this. SSJ2 Gohan was able to pull out the Z sword. Something that 14 generations of Kaioshins were unable to pull. Was that a reference to Eastern Kaioshins only? Or did it include all the Kaioshins? Because Southern Kaioshin gave kid Buu a good fight and kid Buu was forced to absorb him. (or did kid Buu just absorbed him with the intent to increase his power?) See the problem with feats and relative performance comparisons in the Buu arc? They don't add up! Because if based on their performance in pulling out the Z sword, Southern Kaioshin was weaker than SSJ2 Gohan it would mean that kid Buu (who struggled against Southern Kaioshin) is weaker than SSJ2 Gohan (and hence Goku) but at the same time Goku needed to go SSJ3.

Another thing is that the whole Buu arc is littered with shitty plot devices purpose of which was to create contrived drama. Like Bulma saying she couldn't create another Dragon radar due to rare materials (sure...). Popo forgetting he could locate the Dragonballs without radar (like in the Freeza arc), Goku not using instant transmission to go to Capsule Corp (something he did a few chapters earlier) and Popo forgetting his carpet to get there in no time. So what makes people believe that the line in the innards of Buu that they needed fusion against base Super Buu was not yet another BS line to create artificial sense of tension out of nowhere?

1) You have official guide books also saying that Buu was weakened with absorptions removed (even showing Vegeta ripping out Mr. Buu as visual accompaniment to this fact), the manga pretty definitively saying that Pure Buu is weaker than any of the forms of Evil Buu, and so on. One also needs to take into account that most all the guidebook statements that people attribute to Pure Buu end up being actually just references to Buu in general, with no distinction or specification of a form.

2) Gohan was only a regular Super Saiya-jin, not Ssj2, but at no point is it said that all the Kaioushin have bothered to try and remove it. All that's said is basically that all the ones that have tried have failed, rather than all have tried and failed. There's nothing said to indicate that South Kaioushin did ever try to pull the sword out at all. However, one has to take into account that something compelled Pure Buu to absorb South Kaioushin, and every time we've seen him absorb someone before, it's because he had no alternative or he saw that the reward was just too great for him not to.

3) Think of everyone that was at Capsule Corporation when Goku used the Shunkan Idou before though. Bulma, Chi Chi, Videl, Roshi, Yamcha, etc were all there, and the majority of them were individuals that he either was familiar enough with to know what their ki was like, or just had high enough ki levels he could lock onto without issue. The second time though, the only two that were there was Dr. Brief and his wife, individuals that Goku had barely spent any time with, so it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't be able to use the Shunkan Idou by locking onto them.

4) Because it's a line that isn't contradicted at any point, and supported by everything else shown within the manga. If you throw in the Toei-created filler nonsense, then sure, it ends up being more problematic, but when you go by the simple facts of the matter, nothing about that line is contradictory in any sense with how Goku's strength is depicted in comparison to the others.

[apex_pretador]

For what is worth in my own headcanon that tries to marry the anime and the manga I have kid Buu as the strongest unfused form of Buu

Kid Buu is the ONLY unfused form of Buu.

[Lord Beerus]

For what is worth in my own headcanon that tries to marry the anime and the manga I have kid Buu as the strongest unfused form of Buu

Kid Buu is the ONLY unfused form of Buu.

And sure as hell isn't the strongest.

[khalildh]

Really cool thread Herms . I wonder if I should even be bumping this thread, but my Dragonball itch just came back and has to be scratched . Anyway here is a re post from awhile ago, that I'd like to see some debate around.

In order to understand the Boo saga one must first realize that up until Goku gains his life back he does not want to use SSJ3 or be the world's savior again.

Goku first does not want to fight Majin Boo and says he has a fusion technique to teach. Mind you Goku doesn't even suggest Goten and Trunks, that is Mr. Popo. Goku then says he will stall so they can learn the technique. Goku doesn't want to win because he knows one day a stronger threat may arise.

The next time we see Goku on earth is when Super Boo has absorbed earth's hope Gotenks and is about to destroy earth's hope number 2 Gohan. This is the next time we see SSJ3.

So far there is an example set of Goku only using SSJ3 in dire situations. The first one where stalling and not finishing the threat is best for the potential future, and the next time where everyone else on the planet is already dead and the Earth's last hope is about to die. Goku isn't strong enough to defeat this threat, but it does help him.

The next time we see Goku is when he is with Vegeta, and the one thing Goku does not want to do is mess with Vegeta's pride. That is why all throughout there fight Goku does not even hint at a new form. Even still while facing the dire outcome of dieing against Super Boo, Goku still does not want to use SSJ3. Goku says they will find another way to win. He does not want to have to use SSJ3 to win because he thinks it is unfair.

Goku only again decides to use SSJ3 as another last resort when both Gotenks and Gohan, the earth's potential saviors are dead.

tldr;

As you can see the Boo saga is really about how Goku, the word's hero, no longer feels responsible for the world and must make tough and seemingly unorthodox decisions in order to get the next generation ready for a world without him. However it all back fires when he must come to the realization that he is the only one capable of saving the day.

Pure Boo > Evil Boo > Majin Boo

First Goku does not want to be the savior.
Then Goku does not want to have to use SSJ3 in front of Vegeta.
Finally Goku has no other options and must save the day.

The story is really simple when you look at it that way, and the narration fits perfectly in line with this.

Even though you seem like you don't particularly subscribe to this theory much, doesn't this narrative make the most coherent sense for understanding the boo arc?
Is there a better more internally consistent way of looking at the events of series?

I would personally rank the characters as such;
[spoiler]44: SS Goten, SS Trunks (Boo arc),
54 Piccolo (Boo arc), Kaioshin,
55: Perfect Cell (full power), SS Gohan (Cell Games/Boo arc), Dabra,
56: SS2 Gohan (Boo arc), Kibito-shin
57: Mister Boo, SS2 Vegeta, Majin Vegeta, SS2 Goku, SS2 Gohan (Cell Games),
57.5: Pure Evil Boo
58: Fat Boo
59: Evil Boo, SS3 Gotenks, (Piccolo Absorbed Boo would also be here)
60: Ultimate Gohan, Buff Buu
61: Pure Boo, SS3 Goku,
62: Gohan-Boo, Gotenks-Boo
63.5: empty space
64: Super Vegetto[/spoiler]

Gotenks is a really interesting question and very divisive. His strongest form is obviously about as strong as Evil Boo, but much stronger than the SSJ2's. His other forms have either no feats, or no effect to the plot at all. As a character Gotenks, and really Goten and Trunks also are probably one cause the most trouble in the Boo arc. . Piccolo should be stronger than either of Goten or Trunks because he was most dominant when Boo's Gotenks fusion ran out. The 2 main arguments are, one either believes that Goten and Trunks have surpassed the Androids in SSJ, or one goes by the Yo Son Goku special and puts them at about Goku during the Frieza fight level. I tend to go by the latter, which its why if I'd have to put SSJ Gotenks on the list it would be at somewhere between 55-58. The 55-58 gap allows for any conceived RoSaT gains that may have been acquired.
Very interested in what people think about this theory.

[spoiler]In regards to the new Dragonball Super material. If you look at the end of Dragonball as Goku realizing that he is the only one capable of saving the day, and assume that Toei also agrees with the sentiment, it explains why many of the characters have been missing much character development in terms of battle. The manga writes itself into a hard to get out of place with everyone else either being incapable or incompetent of dealing with the next threat. BoG as a plot development has Goku learn that sometimes in order to reach this new level of strength he must rely on people. I think it is very poetic. The hardened warrior who finds an opponent he can't beat, in order to even reach the realm where they can fight, he must do the one thing that his warrior code disagrees with.[/spoiler]