What´s definiton of childish and serious/not childish in DB?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The franchise has mostly being known as 2 different separate series, DRAGON BALL & DRAGON BALL Z.

When it comes to Dragon Ball vs Dragon Ball Z, Part I vs Part II debates, some supporters of the Z era/Part II throw the argument of "Part I/DB is childish", DBZ/Part II is more "mature, Not childish, more serious".

Before going further, I think we should put everyone on the same page and to do so I will ask the community a question that you should answer before we can continue with the discussion:

What´s the definition of the words, Childish and Mature/Serious ? Give me examples for both cases, I want examples from a Series perspective/storytelling perspective/In-Universe perspective (min 20 examples, I challenge you)

Have you given to me your answers ? Ok, now we can continue. For the next part we will
After giving me your examples I ask you: Do those examples TRUELY describe each part of the series as a whole? or, Are those examples for both parts isolated moments that are only cherry picked by fans to support their argument that "Part I/II is/isn´t childish/mature" ?

[Hellspawn28]

I think people think of Bardock TV special and History of Trunks for serious and not childish. People of childish Dragon Ball with full of gags. Fusion Reborn was pretty humorish and had gags in to, yet fans love it. While you have fans that hate the new stuff for having gags. So how come it was okay in the past like Fusion Reborn to be silly and campy, but not stuff like Son Goku, His Friends and Return, Battle of Gods and Super? Janemba didn't become a serious villain until he transform. Most of Fusion Reborn had gags like a parody version of Hitler showing out of nowhere, Veku, Janemba getting hurt by literally screaming bad jokes and Vegeta refusing to fuse with Goku.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

The DB vs. DBZ thing is just a branding thing. It all the same series, with serious and humorous scenes/arcs on both sides of the saiyan arc line. The entire series is "childish" in the sense that it's all aimed at kids, but parts of it like the above mentioned Bardock and Trunks special are more serious than others.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball since GT has been market to a younger audience after DBZ. That's why GT had Goku become a kid again since they probably feel like Goku has become too old and need a new idea. Not to mention GT was much light hearted and less violent compare to DBZ. The Black Star Dragon Ball arc was mostly campy and you had a lot of goofy chidlish looking characters in all of GT too. GT only had one scene of blood while DBZ had more. To me, I don't mind chidlish stuff as long if we have a good story. Dragon Ball has yet to reach the level of campy value of Batman and Robin.

[EXBadguy]

So how come it was okay in the past like Fusion Reborn to be silly and campy, but not stuff like Son Goku, His Friends and Return, Battle of Gods and Super?

Cuz most of the gags in the specials and movies you mentioned weren't funny while the some of the ones in Fusion Reborn were.

Anyway, as for this topic, answer's simple, DB has a lot of silly gags that aren't even funny while DBZ has way less gags and more storytelling and action, of course there are still gags from time to time, but that won't negate my statement. Even as a kid I didn't think most of the gags in DB were funny.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Cuz most of the gags in the specials and movies you mentioned weren't funny while the some of the ones in Fusion Reborn were.

Anyway, as for this topic, answer's simple, DB has a lot of silly gags that aren't even funny while DBZ has way less gags and more storytelling and action, of course there are still gags from time to time, but that won't negate my statement. Even as a kid I didn't think most of the gags in DB were funny.

Fair points...If only you could mention examples that ilustrate and support your words.

[ThatGuyNamedChancey]

To look at it philosophically, the definition of childish in terms of fiction (or really anything), imo, would be this: "For a piece of fiction to be defined as childish, you would have to not take it seriously, as well as it not taking itself seriously." Personally, I think this is true but I'm willing to hear counter-arguments.

Now, imo, the definition of what something serious/mature is very similar to the previous: "For a piece of fiction to be defined as serious, you would have to take it seriously, as well it taking itself seriously."

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

[quote="ThatGuyNamedChancey"] "For a piece of fiction to be defined as childish, you would have to not take it seriously, as well as it not taking itself seriously."
Why can't you take kid's shows seriously? Kanzenshuu itself is pretty serious about Dragonball, after all.

[ThatGuyNamedChancey]

Why can't you take kid's shows seriously?

I never said such a thing, but regardless, you can take a kid's show seriously, but the question is whether it's supposed to be serious or not. And I feel like that kind of thing is subjective. The first half of DB and other kid's shows (say, Amazing World of Gumball) can be considered childish because they don't take themselves seriously. However, one might take them seriously, but that doesn't mean that to a larger collective it is serious (which is what I meant by "you"--something I probably should have reworded).

Kanzenshuu itself is pretty serious about Dragonball, after all.

That is quite true, I didn't take that into consideration.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Why can't you take kid's shows seriously?

I never said such a thing, but regardless, you can take a kid's show seriously, but the question is whether it's supposed to be serious or not.

I see. I read your previous post with the assumption that kids demographic = childish, but you meant it as a tone (right?). Even so, a show can not take itself seriously and still be mature.

[Vijay]

Childish is watchin Super Buu slaughterin humanity from Kami's Lookout

Serious is watchin Goku eat

Jk. Reverse that.

I dont exactly "group" THIS is childish. THIS is serious.

Anythin happens in fraction of a sec. Like Goku vs Kid Buu. It was an all-out war involvin life & death of universe. Yet that small bit of both biting each other was hilarious. Childish I'd say

Like-wise, Kid Goku meetin Kami-Sama for 1st time played-out funnily. With Goku (essentially Nozawa-san) in his high-pitch mistakin Kami-sama for Piccollo Daimou & charging head-on. But the subsequent scenes of Kami-Sama using some kinda "invisible" wall to deflect Goku & his backstory & link to Shenron was both serious & dark as f***

My 2 cents

[Kamiccolo9]

Thinking that gore is mature is pretty childish. "Gratuitous" doesn't mean "mature."

[Pantalones]

I've never seen it as a difference of "childish vs. mature/serious" so much as "gag-based with action/fighting here and there" vs. "action/fighting-based with goofy moments here and there." You can't deny that the earlier bits of Dragonball are goofier, with a lot of gag scenes, more exaggerated designs and facial expressions, and an overall rounder and more "cartoony" art style... and then as the series moves into later Dragonball and Z, the art style changes (the more angular and more heavily-muscled designs Z is associated with start to show up more and more in later Dragonball and early Z), there's less gag scenes but more/longer fight scenes, and more of the major characters have fairly normal humanoid proportions compared to Dragonball's abundance of giants and midgets and people with really odd body/face/etc. shapes.

The Buu saga sort of blends the two together, with "oddball giants and midgets" villains vs. "normal humanoid shape/size" heroes and then there's Gotenks, Mr. Satan, and Buu himself introducing more jokey scenes back into the series after their near-total absence for a while starting the moment Cell arrived.

[Soppa Saia People]

Thinking that gore is mature is pretty childish. "Gratuitous" doesn't mean "mature."

Zo my god all of the yeses. As for the topic it's up to you.

[Draconic]

So how come it was okay in the past like Fusion Reborn to be silly and campy, but not stuff like Son Goku, His Friends and Return, Battle of Gods and Super?

Cuz most of the gags in the specials and movies you mentioned weren't funny while the some of the ones in Fusion Reborn were.

Anyway, as for this topic, answer's simple, DB has a lot of silly gags that aren't even funny while DBZ has way less gags and more storytelling and action, of course there are still gags from time to time, but that won't negate my statement. Even as a kid I didn't think most of the gags in DB were funny.

Well, this is how subjectivity works. I don't find any of the gags in DBZ funny and since I think I can point to any fight in Dragon Ball better than any/on par with any from Z, Dragon Ball for me is not only the way I always look as the standard for the series, but the only the show should go. Toriyama isn't stupid. He knows that the writing in the series took a hit when it got more action-based. He reverted to what he does best: comedy with some fights thrown in.

I guess when people call the show childish, they do because it's funny and a comedy. While, despite this, Z has the most gags aimed specifically at little kids (needle-fearing Goku, the driving episode) than DB does. I don't think DB is childish. It's intensity, character development, violence and perverted gags make it to be far more than just a kids show, which is why it stood the test of time, but it is still a kids show. On the other hand, I can't say the same about Z. THAT is aimed at little kids, because only little kids would watch/read something and not care about the plotholes and the stupid moves each character makes at every corner just on the prospect that it has "cool fights" and it's "action-packed".

Now, the new material is too early to judge. It had the best piece of anything DB related in Battle of Gods, which was silly and fun, but had incredible writing and then RoF, which is very very bad, while being action-packed and serious. Universe 6 is probably going the blend both, judging by the designs of the combatants, which, in my opinion, is the best way to go, because the Tournaments were always the best part for me: I laughed my ass off for the early fights, then I was grinding my teeth in the latter ones.

[Lionel]

I think serious and childish interpretation really depends on how a scene is presented. Take the aforementioned Goku and Kid Buu fight where they're biting each other -- the expressions, severity of damage and movement of the characters demonstrates clearly that the scene is supposed to be looked at in a humourous way. But if, for instance, you were to extend the scene with a close up of Kid Buu as he's prepared to bite Goku with a gleefully sadistic and chaotic expression which startles Goku, then he takes the bite, ripping out flesh and muscle with blood gushing forth with a responsive close up of Goku's face as his disbelief and horror is marred by agony which is then replaced with fury inspiring him to return the gesture by biting into Kid Buu, ripping out a bit of his flesh in kind, would you say that such a scene is funny? My interpretation would be it that it's intended to be a means of conveying the brutality and sadistic nature of the fight.

To be fair, that also sounds very graphic by DB standards.

[EXBadguy]

Well, this is how subjectivity works. I don't find any of the gags in DBZ funny and since I think I can point to any fight in Dragon Ball better than any/on par with any from Z, Dragon Ball for me is not only the way I always look as the standard for the series, but the only the show should go. Toriyama isn't stupid. He knows that the writing in the series took a hit when it got more action-based. He reverted to what he does best: comedy with some fights thrown in.

Oh I agree, I don't think most of the gags in Z were funny either. To me, Toriyama sucked at doing them. And sure, comedy with fights worked, but you do realize the tone shift is what made most of DB popular in general too, right?

I guess when people call the show childish, they do because it's funny and a comedy. While, despite this, Z has the most gags aimed specifically at little kids (needle-fearing Goku, the driving episode) than DB does.

Except that I don't think DB's that funny as people claim it to be. I still say the DB gags are more stupid, with shit on a stick being an example, I mean, who the hell finds that funny? That's one of the reasons I find DB childish, and I mean by just "ridiculously stupid", not JUST by kids standards.

I don't think DB is childish. It's intensity, character development, violence and perverted gags make it to be far more than just a kids show, which is why it stood the test of time, but it is still a kids show. On the other hand, I can't say the same about Z. THAT is aimed at little kids, because only little kids would watch/read something and not care about the plotholes and the stupid moves each character makes at every corner just on the prospect that it has "cool fights" and it's "action-packed".

Yeah, DB had almost just the amount of violence as Z had and had perverted gags that ended up being toned down in Z, that I'll give you. But the intensity and character development, nope! To me, the intensity started kicking in from start to finish in the last two sagas while in the rest of the earlier sagas, the intensity was either wasn't big enough or saved into the very end, thanks to its unfunny gags and comedy. And as for character development, it's only two characters that had worthy ones, Goku and Tien. Other than that, DB doesn't have any worthy ones, at all!

Now, the new material is too early to judge. It had the best piece of anything DB related in Battle of Gods, which was silly and fun, but had incredible writing and then RoF, which is very very bad, while being action-packed and serious. Universe 6 is probably going the blend both, judging by the designs of the combatants, which, in my opinion, is the best way to go, because the Tournaments were always the best part for me: I laughed my ass off for the early fights, then I was grinding my teeth in the latter ones.

I only liked BoG over RoF/RF cuz of its writing, but the silliness is what made me realize I'm too old for the franchise, and I saw MANY folks in the theaters mildly cringing and/or making WTF looks at the silly moments. Meanwhile on the other hand, while FnF did have bad writing, it's intensity was over the top.

I hope for the U6 plot, one of the editors slap some sense into Toriyama and make it Z-level, little comedy and more intensity, becuase there are some really scary questionable events, like the war that made all of the humans extinct. Of course, it'll barely happen, but a man can dream.

[Draconic]

Well, this is how subjectivity works. I don't find any of the gags in DBZ funny and since I think I can point to any fight in Dragon Ball better than any/on par with any from Z, Dragon Ball for me is not only the way I always look as the standard for the series, but the only the show should go. Toriyama isn't stupid. He knows that the writing in the series took a hit when it got more action-based. He reverted to what he does best: comedy with some fights thrown in.

Oh I agree, I don't think most of the gags in Z were funny either. To me, Toriyama sucked at doing them. And sure, comedy with fights worked, but you do realize the tone shift is what made most of DB popular in general too, right?

I guess when people call the show childish, they do because it's funny and a comedy. While, despite this, Z has the most gags aimed specifically at little kids (needle-fearing Goku, the driving episode) than DB does.

Except that I don't think DB's that funny as people claim it to be. I still say the DB gags are more stupid, with shit on a stick being an example, I mean, who the hell finds that funny? That's one of the reasons I find DB childish, and I mean by just "ridiculously stupid", not JUST by kids standards.

I don't think DB is childish. It's intensity, character development, violence and perverted gags make it to be far more than just a kids show, which is why it stood the test of time, but it is still a kids show. On the other hand, I can't say the same about Z. THAT is aimed at little kids, because only little kids would watch/read something and not care about the plotholes and the stupid moves each character makes at every corner just on the prospect that it has "cool fights" and it's "action-packed".

Yeah, DB had almost just the amount of violence as Z had and had perverted gags that ended up being toned down in Z, that I'll give you. But the intensity and character development, nope! To me, the intensity started kicking in from start to finish in the last two sagas while in the rest of the earlier sagas, the intensity was either wasn't big enough or saved into the very end, thanks to its unfunny gags and comedy. And as for character development, it's only two characters that had worthy ones, Goku and Tenshinhan. Other than that, DB doesn't have any worthy ones, at all!

Now, the new material is too early to judge. It had the best piece of anything DB related in Battle of Gods, which was silly and fun, but had incredible writing and then RoF, which is very very bad, while being action-packed and serious. Universe 6 is probably going the blend both, judging by the designs of the combatants, which, in my opinion, is the best way to go, because the Tournaments were always the best part for me: I laughed my ass off for the early fights, then I was grinding my teeth in the latter ones.

I only liked BoG over RoF/RF cuz of its writing, but the silliness is what made me realize I'm too old for the franchise, and I saw MANY folks in the theaters mildly cringing and/or making WTF looks at the silly moments. Meanwhile on the other hand, while FnF did have bad writing, it's intensity was over the top.

I hope for the U6 plot, one of the editors slap some sense into Toriyama and make it Z-level, little comedy and more intensity, becuase there are some really scary questionable events, like the war that made all of the humans extinct. Of course, it'll barely happen, but a man can dream.

Well, we could argue about it being funny all day and we won't come to anything. It's a matter of taste. I find it funny, you don't and that's alright. However I've got to disagree on some points. You may not find DB has many intense moments, but I think that's because you have prior knowledge of seeing where these characters end up, as you admited to have watched Z first. There are tons of intense moments: Goku turning into an Oozaru at the 21st TB, Tenshinhan vs Yamcha culminating with Yamacha getting his leg broken, Goku's first fight with Tao Pai Pai, Goku vs Piccolo Daimao, Goku vs Piccolo etc.
Then, you said there is not much character development. Outside of Goku and Tenshinhan you mentioned, there is Krillin, who got from cowardly and cheating in his first appearence and the 21st TB, to a fully realized martial artist at the 23rd TB to the point Piccolo complimented his skills. Then there is Yamcha, who went from a bandit to a reliable friend and also from kind of an arogant douche to learning humility from the fight with Ten and even more from the one with Kami. Sure, there was none as obvious as Vegeta's development in Z, but there is a lot in DB too.

Regarding U6, I too think it's going to be more Z like. The character designs kinda show that it won't be all just fun and games. It will have fun and games, but it's probably going to get a little more tense torwards the end fights (if there is only a tournament, if not, the more serious aspect will go further). I would really like it that way: fun and funny, but serious when it needs to be. But, to me, it could go either way and I wouldn't really care as long as the writing is good and everything is kept tight, not all over the place like the Cell or Buu arcs.

[Majin Buu]

I think part of this divide stems from the notion of Dragon Ball as something for kids still being abhorrent to some people. The more gag and humor based it is, the more obvious that becomes, and that makes some people self-conscious about being into it so they react negatively to it. Even when the series became less gag and humor based, it still wasn't anything complex or particularly "mature"; but because those elements weren't there, it became easier to ignore that it was a series for kids.

The whole series is childish in the sense that it's primarily made for and marketed to children.

[fadeddreams5]

When I've seen "childish" used to describe Dragon Ball Super, it's usually to express the objective nature of the show: it's VERY "safe." There is horrid censorship. The emphasis is more on comedy, with cutaways during any and ALL serious moments. The comedy itself is more orientated for young kids, with all the slapstick and transparent jokes. The tone is very different than the Piccolo-Cell sagas, specials, and Toei movies. The only death/major injury scenes (Gohan and Piccolo) have very little emotion compared to the ones in DB/Z. It feels like it's for a different age group, even if it's orientated towards the same one. And that has to do with standards. I mean, Fist of the North Star was considered Shonen. And you can bet your ass a lot of the content from old Looney Tunes cartoons would raise red flags today, even if those shows were for young kids. It's a different era.