Trunks, Goten & 18

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:11 pm

And the fact that Trunks was able to scratch Vegeta's face before being hit means...?

Let's look at Vegeta. Cell openly stated he and Trunks were equal to the Cell Juniors he made. And Goku wasn't. Meaning they were greater than whatever percentage of MSSj power he had left. And wherever you place the Cell Juniors in terms of power. But this is all past that. The Vegeta Trunks was able to hit had trained for seven years. In at least 150x gravity, for a lot of the time (stated by Bulma).

How it not possible Trunks was this strong?

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:13 pm

^^ Personally I think it's not the best idea to bring Future Trunks into the argument, it dosen't really prove anything.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:15 pm

Well I was just saying he and Trunks were the only ones stated to be holding their own. I'm not trying to prove anything about Future Trunks.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:09 pm

Tyro wrote:And the fact that Trunks was able to scratch Vegeta's face before being hit means...?

He's fast.

Humpski · Post by **Humpski** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 8:16 am

Rocketman wrote:
Tyro wrote:And the fact that Trunks was able to scratch Vegeta's face before being hit means...?
He's fast.

In the DBZ universe fast and strong usually go hand in hand.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:02 pm

Unless you have an obviously bulked-up person like Broli or "ultra" Future Trunks. Generally speaking though, yes.

For some reason I want to compare Goten and Trunks to Piccolo, even though that doesn't accomplish anything. It seems odd that Piccolo was considered a "straggler" by Dabura even though he was... well... strong. Although he would have been behind Goku and the others. Well... behind Gohan, anyway. And since Vegeta and Goku were stronger at that point... I'm confusing myself now.

.

But somewhere between starting this post and now it occured to me that Piccolo might be close to Goten and Trunks in power...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:20 pm

caejones wrote:But somewhere between starting this post and now it occured to me that Piccolo might be close to Goten and Trunks in power...

Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:26 pm

So on one side we have: Strongly suggestive evidence in which the conclusion would make the overall series events make more sense.

On the other, we have: ...no actual arguments refuting this, just the idea that it's "unrealistic" for the kids to be this strong.

Yeah, and Gotenks was a kid, yet as a Super Saiyan 3 he far outstripped any level of power Goku ever displayed, by far. I know fusion is effective, but you need some extremely strong people to make the fusion that effective, too. Goten makes Gohan put forth real effort in a sparring match, Trunks hits Vegeta's face, #18 is shocked and almost terrified by a blast Trunks launches. Trunks hit Boo in the face and made him fly (I'm sorry, but you can't just write that off as "surprise attack" bullcrap) in a rock formation. We have nothing indicating they were as weak as Super Saiyan Vegeta from the Artificial Human arc. Everything points to them being able to contend with the top warriors of the Cell arc. This justifies the utter strength of Gotenks and further displays the fact that these kids had some fricken insane potential.

What, are people going to start denying the Super Saiyan Gohan was stronger than Super Saiyan Goku at the Cell Game just because he was only 9 years old? Come on.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:36 pm

Duo wrote:Everything points to them being able to contend with the top warriors of the Cell arc.

Except that when the Gotenks fusion broke up inside Buu, he changed appearance to Piccolo, showing that the Namek is stronger than the kids. And Piccolo was completely outclassed in the Cell Arc.

Trunks hit Boo in the face and made him fly (I'm sorry, but you can't just write that off as "surprise attack" bullcrap)

Piccolo did the same to Final Form Freeza when Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:43 pm

Rocketman wrote:Except that when the Gotenks fusion broke up inside Buu, he changed appearance to Piccolo, showing that the Namek is stronger than the kids. And Piccolo was completely outclassed in the Cell Arc.

The kids were in their base forms after Gotenks broke apart inside Boo.

Rocketman wrote:Piccolo did the same to Final Form Freeza when Goku was charging the Spirit Bomb.

Yeah? Piccolo also had taken in nearly all of Gohan and Kuririn's Ki, on top of that using nearly all of it (plus his own) in just that one extremely focused kick.

The Anime drags that whole thing out, of course, but in the Manga it's just one kick.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 4:57 pm

Duo wrote:The kids were in their base forms after Gotenks broke apart inside Boo.

Gotenks was in base also, since Buu used his power for 30 minutes instead of the 5 the the fusion lasts at SSJ3, and since people absorbed become unconscious (and depower from Super Saiyan forms when unconscious).

Buu must then tap into the full/'hidden' power of the people he absorbs. Therefore, Piccolo is stronger than the kids.

Yeah? Piccolo also had taken in nearly all of Gohan and Kuririn's Ki, on top of that using nearly all of it (plus his own) in just that one extremely focused kick.

And Trunks was a Super Saiyan.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:18 pm

Not to mention that Piccolo absorbing the "full power" of Gohan and Krillin is not saying much. They're not exactly heavyweights even at full power in relation to Freeza, and they were hardly doing their best at that point.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Tue Jan 23, 2007 6:38 pm

mAcChaos wrote:Not to mention that Piccolo absorbing the "full power" of Gohan and Krillin is not saying much. They're not exactly heavyweights even at full power in relation to Freeza, and they were hardly doing their best at that point.

Here's something I wanted to point out: Krillin and Gohan gave Piccolo what was left of their power (which wasn't that much). *Scrolls up* To sum it up, Trunks and Goten are very strong. Individually, they are probably weaker than Piccolo in their base forms. As for super saiyans, I don’t know. Duo mentioned the boys having potential which is true, Goku and Gohan mentioned it and there was even a chapter title saying something about their strength being equal to ten thousand men, I believe.

But potential doesn’t mean anything unless you actually do something with it (GT). Besides, the last time we really see Piccolo fight was in the Cell Arc against a Cell Jr. The anime makes Piccolo is doing a decent job and keeping them off and even helping the others protect Goku if I recall. Now, do you see Trunks and Goten being able to do that against Cell Jrs.? Closing notes: Trunks and Goten: Super Vegeta's level? Probably not. More likely Vegeta vs. No.18 keeping in mind they don't have fighting experience..I’m basically finished but I have a semi-rant if you care to read:

I mean if you think about it, the feats of Goten and Trunks can be dismissed as someone being caught off guard:

-Goten’s strength was a shock to Gohan because Gohan hardly trains anymore.
-Trunks barely hit Vegeta and the man was still in disbelief that “there was a bargain sale on super saiyans”
-Goten losing to Trunks when Trunks transforms the last second. Same with Goten breaking off of the hold..
-No.18 having her guard down (not knowing she was fighting that type of fighter)
-Fat Buu being kicked by Trunks

From there, the boys don’t fight anymore until they train in RoSaT (in the manga). So maybe the boys were strong for their age compared to regular warriors but still not on the level of say Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan. Also, if the boys had such a reserve of energy, wouldn't Spopovich and Yamu detect it with their machine?
-Rick

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:03 am

Boo refers to the Gotenks within him as "Super Gotenks" meaning, regardless of the time it took, Super Saiyan level 3 Gotenks was the one empowering him.

And...I don't feel like replying to the rest right now.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:12 am

Duo wrote:Yeah? Piccolo also had taken in nearly all of Gohan and Kuririn's Ki, on top of that using nearly all of it (plus his own) in just that one extremely focused kick.

The Anime drags that whole thing out, of course, but in the Manga it's just one kick.

I'm just guessing the dub screwed that part up a bit. I haven't seen the Japanese version of that episode, nor read the manga chapter with it, but the dub points out Piccolo, Gohan, and Kuririn were "donating energy" to Goku. That was a dub goof?

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:17 am

FuniDub...

Buu: *transforms into Piccaboo*
Goku: Of course: Gotenks! Buu's lost over a third of his power!

That throws me off... That suggests that ... I don't know, it could suggest a few things, but they're all strange...

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:08 am

Duo wrote:Boo refers to the Gotenks within him as "Super Gotenks" meaning, regardless of the time it took, Super Saiyan level 3 Gotenks was the one empowering him.

And since:

1. People get knocked out when they're absorbed.
2. KO'd Saiyans can't maintain Super Saiyan forms.

Buu must be able to use the entire power of the people he absorbed, regardless of transformations. Since he took on Piccolo's appearance, Piccolo must be stronger than the kids.

tainted saiyan · Post by **tainted saiyan** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 11:47 am

The Vegeta Trunks was able to hit had trained for seven years. In at least 150x gravity.

If you are referring to Chibi Trunks, you are mistaken. If Trunks had trained at 150 X gravity, why did he struggle in the Gravity chamber?

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:06 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Duo wrote:Boo refers to the Gotenks within him as "Super Gotenks" meaning, regardless of the time it took, Super Saiyan level 3 Gotenks was the one empowering him.
And since:

1. People get knocked out when they're absorbed.
2. KO'd Saiyans can't maintain Super Saiyan forms.

Buu must be able to use the entire power of the people he absorbed, regardless of transformations. Since he took on Piccolo's appearance, Piccolo must be stronger than the kids.

Decent points, but there's no proof to that. He says he has Super Gotenks in him, so we must assume that Gotenks was transformed just as when he was absorbed. He isn't shown inside Boo during this time so there is no way to prove it otherwise.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:09 pm

Humpski wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Tyro wrote:And the fact that Trunks was able to scratch Vegeta's face before being hit means...?
He's fast.
In the DBZ universe fast and strong usually go hand in hand.

I remember Burter was known as the fastest in the universe, as Ginyu stated. Burter is Recoom's strength and Ginyu is a lot stronger.