Cels vs. Digital Animation

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
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JulieYBM
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:54 pm

soppa saia people wrote:I'm pretty sure JulieYBM works in the animation industry. And so what you studied animation as you've proven you still don't know what you're talking about.
Lord Beerus wrote:
soppa saia people wrote:I'm pretty sure JulieYBM works in the animation industry. And so what you studied animation as you've proven you still don't know what you're talking about.
JulieYBM doesn't work in the animation industry. He just knows a lot of information about how the animation industry works.
I hear JulieYBM works in the retail industry, standing on his feet eight hours and day and pretending to be a game show host.
ABED wrote:I love older animation, but one of the problems with it is (as far as I have seen) is that it's easier with cell animation to be "off model". It happened numerous times on Batman: The animated series. There would also be a weird rubbery quality to some things that should be solid. For instance, I remember at least one time where the batmobile turns a corner and bends when the car should stay straight and solid.
This has nothing to do with cel animation. The drawings are only corrected by the animation supervisors/directors, there is no changes made by working on cels or digital. The instance you are referring to is simply a key animator drawing off model.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by TripleRach » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:57 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:What? Look at the messages. I only came back when he replied to me. I said let's agree to disagree and left. He responded and a reiterated. HE responded and I reiterated saying if he responds again I'd not respond.

I'm honestly thinking you're just trolling me now for shits and giggles. Because I'm right on this and probably read up on this stuff more then all you guys put together. Furthermore when you says "You did this and that's bad" it's completely based on nothing. Literally anyone who looks at the last 3 posts sees I wasn't coming back to it. The other guy kept up the topic and I THEN I responded I don't wanna walk about it anymore. Either you keep skimming and mis reading or you are porously fucking with me. IF you're not then re read what I said. The evidence is all there. If you're just screwing with me good show. I honestly didn't catch on til now.
If you really don't want to continue a conversation... then don't continue it. No one is forcing you to keep replying to posts. But likewise, you can't force other people to stop replying to you when you say "I'm done here."

This is just some general advice, for you or anyone else in the future.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:23 pm

TripleRach wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:What? Look at the messages. I only came back when he replied to me. I said let's agree to disagree and left. He responded and a reiterated. HE responded and I reiterated saying if he responds again I'd not respond.

I'm honestly thinking you're just trolling me now for shits and giggles. Because I'm right on this and probably read up on this stuff more then all you guys put together. Furthermore when you says "You did this and that's bad" it's completely based on nothing. Literally anyone who looks at the last 3 posts sees I wasn't coming back to it. The other guy kept up the topic and I THEN I responded I don't wanna walk about it anymore. Either you keep skimming and mis reading or you are porously fucking with me. IF you're not then re read what I said. The evidence is all there. If you're just screwing with me good show. I honestly didn't catch on til now.
If you really don't want to continue a conversation... then don't continue it. No one is forcing you to keep replying to posts. But likewise, you can't force other people to stop replying to you when you say "I'm done here."

This is just some general advice, for you or anyone else in the future.
True but when someone says they don't want to talk about something anymore you shouldn't keep bringing it up. I only responded TWICE afterwards to be polite rather then just ignore the kid.

I don't see how when I respectfully end a conversation and someone keeps it up that I am somehow at fault for
1. continuing to be respectful
2. responding to him not about the topic, but about how I'm not talking about anymore "in a courteous way." not a rude way and not just ignoring the guy. I get enough crap for not responding to messages when I don't see em.

I swear the people on this thread are acting childish. In a nutshell is what I get Is people saying I'm wrong and getting all worked up, and acting disrespectful.

I'm told I'm talking out my ass and other things and yet I'm the right one. How hilarious. I've talked to professors at animation schools, read books and even spoken to some animators on the topic of animation. I'm obsessed with this stuff. But even if I'm wrong, does someone being wrogn warrant so much hatred? I know those guys are wrong and do you see me talk so dang rudely? No.

Even have vegito twisting my words again out of nowhere. I swear it's like I'm talking to the youtube community on here because I came to kanzenshuu to talk about dragonball with fellow fans, not be attacked if I don't conform to what other two people think, especially when they are wrong as hell.

Everyone's demonizing me being polite and getting into a frenzy for not agreeing with people on what a single word means. Horary for first world problems! :D

Basaku wrote:I'm just gonna say this - traditional 'analog' cell animation involves so many tiny imperfections and "mistakes" at every step of the process that it will be inherently distinguishable to many people senstive to it and seen as much more raw and natural art than digital process. Those 'mistakes' can be simulated nowadays in digital process if that's the art-direction and the desire of the creators, but whether that simulation is perfect and can replicate the exact nature of human hand (particularly when it comes to coloring) and analog equipement is highy debatable.

Everyone take a deep breath 'cause you all are starting to come off as rude IMO, mods, older and newer members included Image
Thank you. I come back to see if anyone is pro cel animation and I see replies to me that come down my throat for no reason.


Can we all maybe NOT fight over trivial stuff? We're ALL dragonball fans are we not? Enough fighting over power levels/canon and stuff. Just talk about it, don't attack people for not having your same stance. We needs more posts like Basaku's. :)
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:29 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I only responded TWICE afterwards to be polite rather then just ignore the kid.
Like various users have tried to tell you, you would do better in not ignoring. Also, thank you for calling me kid, I'm going to be 30 this year so it's kind of nice having people calling me that.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:36 pm

rereboy wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:I only responded TWICE afterwards to be polite rather then just ignore the kid.
Like various users have tried to tell you, you would do better in not ignoring. Also, thank you for calling me kid, I'm going to be 30 this year so it's kind of nice having people calling me that.

Well that wasn't meant to be a insult FYI.
However if you're gonna talk shit to people for disagreeing with you then you're gonna be called a child by a lot of people. It's sad if you're 30 and do so. No offense but that's the truth. Not gonna baby you, you're 30. That's the truth. You need to act your age. I'm 22 and I know not to attack you for disagreeing with me. Heck evene after you disrespected me I didn't attack you and now I'm giving you helpful advice. Why? Because there's nothing to gain from attacking people online. It's a cowardly habbit I don't want.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:43 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Well that wasn't meant to be a insult FYI.
If you say so.
However if you're gonna talk shit to people for disagreeing with you then you're gonna be called a child by a lot of people.
I never "talked shit".
It's sad if you're 30 and do so. No offense but that's the truth. Not gonna baby you, you're 30. That's the truth. You need to act your age. I'm 22 and I know not to attack you for disagreeing with me. Heck evene after you disrespected me I didn't attack you and now I'm giving you helpful advice. Why? Because there's nothing to gain from attacking people online. It's a cowardly habbit I don't want.
Your interpretation of my previous posts as me somehow "being sad", "attacking you", "disrespecting you" and "being cowardly" is as strange as your opinion and "disagreement" regarding animation. It doesn't make sense.

I would advise you to tone it down, though. I believe the mods won't look kindly to your recent posts.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:59 pm

rereboy wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:Well that wasn't meant to be a insult FYI.
If you say so.
However if you're gonna talk shit to people for disagreeing with you then you're gonna be called a child by a lot of people.
I never "talked shit".
It's sad if you're 30 and do so. No offense but that's the truth. Not gonna baby you, you're 30. That's the truth. You need to act your age. I'm 22 and I know not to attack you for disagreeing with me. Heck evene after you disrespected me I didn't attack you and now I'm giving you helpful advice. Why? Because there's nothing to gain from attacking people online. It's a cowardly habbit I don't want.
Your interpretation of my previous posts as me somehow "being sad", "attacking you", "disrespecting you" and "being cowardly" is as strange as your opinion and "disagreement" regarding animation. It doesn't make sense.

I would advise you to tone it down, though. I believe the mods won't look kindly to your recent posts.

Mods can't get upset with my post since they've been nothing but polite and broken no rules XD

Also I looked back at your post for the example of what you posted...and I actually got you confused with someone else. My mistake. I was talking about the guy who was cursing at me earlier. My apologies to you.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by rereboy » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:07 pm

I'm pretty sure that there's a high chance that they will.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:09 pm

Doctor. wrote:A certain somebody here is acting a bit too narcissistic.
I just so wonder who you're talking about. It's a shame that this is A) gonna get lock B) Some people/someone getting a strike or worse a ban.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by HourglassIndigo » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:13 pm

To get back on topic, I really think that it's a matter of how Toei handles the series. Dragon ball has had great animation in both cels and digital. I've seen tons of people blaming the characters going off model in Super on the digital animation, but it isn't the digital animation it's how much time toei puts into their episodes. I understand that they have deadlines to meet and the budget is no where near as huge as Bog or FnF, but would it hurt to hire staff for quality control? In all honesty, I can deal with the animation, but the characters constantly going off model really throws me off. Overall i'm going to go with digital animation. I think that when it's done correctly it can be great.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by ErikB » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:13 pm

...Goodness, what a mess of a discussion.

To the actual topic:
I don't think I could choose which I think looks better; especially considering there's no single overarching look of what cel animation looks like, nor what digital animation looks like.
It's quite foolish to say that digital animation can't replicate the look of cel animation. Toon Boom, Flash, and TVPaint (probably others too) have the ability to do texture fills, so if you want the grainy, slightly uneven paint look to your colours, you can have it. That typically isn't done is because it was rarely, if ever, the intention in cel animation to begin with. It was a necessary caveat of the only tools that were available at the time. The goal was to paint the colours as flush as humanly possible, and now that's largely been replaced by digital tools that do it without any imperfection. You're free to dislike that, but that's a purely subjective stance.
As for linework, there are countless textured brushes you can find online for just about any art or animation software. Some programs have brushes like that to begin with.
If it can be displayed on a computer screen, then it can be replicated on a computer.

Truth is, I have no problem with cels going away for good. They were a necessity of the time, they had a long and admirable run, and now they've been replaced by something that's capable of achieving the same result with less. That's not laziness, that's efficiency. The animation industry has always thrived in embracing change and new technology for whatever reason it needed to. The xerox era of Disney movies existed simply because it was no longer affordable for Disney to do clean-up and colouring the way they did before, but that sketchy look was beloved by many. I'm not interested in seeing the old tried and true replicated ad nauseum. I'm much more interested in what new ground we can break with new artistic technology.
Sergio Pablos's absolutely stunning Klaus has a look all it's own that uses hand-drawn animation with digital painting and volumetric shading done in TVPaint that really would not be possible to do working on cels:
https://vimeo.com/126287950
Also you can see some beautiful pencil tests of that here: https://vimeo.com/135202004

Sigh...I just love animation in all forms. I love so much of what I've seen done with non-traditional methods when those methods are pushed. I've spent the last couple years working very happily in TV animation; as such I've been afforded the opportunity to live comfortably and spend my free time working on a short film in which I'm using both hand-drawn animation and digital cut-out animation.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by HourglassIndigo » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:25 pm

ErikB wrote: Sigh...I just love animation in all forms. I love so much of what I've seen done with non-traditional methods when those methods are pushed. I've spent the last couple years working very happily in TV animation; as such I've been afforded the opportunity to live comfortably and spend my free time working on a short film in which I'm using both hand-drawn animation and digital cut-out animation.
I couldn't agree more. As an aspiring animator, I've always loved all animation. In fact, it was Dragon Ball that struck a cord with me as a kid and made me decide to become an animator.

I've grown up on dragon ball in both the cel and digital era. I still love it to this day as I did a kid. I think when it does cel animation right, it's beautiful. When it does digital animation right, it's amazing. That being said they both have their high points and their low points.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:45 pm

rereboy wrote:I'm pretty sure that there's a high chance that they will.

For what? I've broken no rules. Only one of us who's done anything bad is YOU. You kept bringing it up over and over despite me politely saying I don't want to. You just didn't care and kept coming back. And even that isn't worth the time of the mods. You're literally painting my posts in a bad light out of spite because I don't agree with you, which is puerile. just accept we're on two different ends. We've finally stopped talking about it and you still have disdain over it. You can't let little things like that bother you. You'll be MUCH happier if you don't let the little things upset. Trust me, it's good advice. Take it from a fellow fan my friend. :)
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:30 pm

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
rereboy wrote:I'm pretty sure that there's a high chance that they will.

For what? I've broken no rules. Only one of us who's done anything bad is YOU. You kept bringing it up over and over despite me politely saying I don't want to. You just didn't care and kept coming back. And even that isn't worth the time of the mods. You're literally painting my posts in a bad light out of spite because I don't agree with you, which is puerile. just accept we're on two different ends. We've finally stopped talking about it and you still have disdain over it. You can't let little things like that bother you. You'll be MUCH happier if you don't let the little things upset. Trust me, it's good advice. Take it from a fellow fan my friend. :)
The reason he is arguing with you is because you are wrong, accept it, own it don't ignore it it, and act like you're right.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by HourglassIndigo » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:38 pm

soppa saia people wrote:
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote:
rereboy wrote:I'm pretty sure that there's a high chance that they will.

For what? I've broken no rules. Only one of us who's done anything bad is YOU. You kept bringing it up over and over despite me politely saying I don't want to. You just didn't care and kept coming back. And even that isn't worth the time of the mods. You're literally painting my posts in a bad light out of spite because I don't agree with you, which is puerile. just accept we're on two different ends. We've finally stopped talking about it and you still have disdain over it. You can't let little things like that bother you. You'll be MUCH happier if you don't let the little things upset. Trust me, it's good advice. Take it from a fellow fan my friend. :)
The reason he is arguing with you is because you are wrong, accept it, own it don't ignore it it, and act like you're right.
I hate to be that guy, but this isn't a thread for you guys to argue. I honestly don't care who's right or who's wrong, but that'd be cool if we could keep to the topic this thread is about.

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:49 pm

HourglassIndigo wrote: I hate to be that guy, but this isn't a thread for you guys to argue. I honestly don't care who's right or who's wrong, but that'd be cool if we could keep to the topic this thread is about.
Hey man it's your topic you have all the right to be angry. I most likely won't post here again unless a certain someone makes a really dumb post.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:59 pm

For what? I've broken no rules. Only one of us who's done anything bad is YOU. You kept bringing it up over and over despite me politely saying I don't want to. You just didn't care and kept coming back. And even that isn't worth the time of the mods. You're literally painting my posts in a bad light out of spite because I don't agree with you, which is puerile. just accept we're on two different ends. We've finally stopped talking about it and you still have disdain over it. You can't let little things like that bother you. You'll be MUCH happier if you don't let the little things upset. Trust me, it's good advice. Take it from a fellow fan my friend. :)[/quote]
The reason he is arguing with you is because you are wrong, accept it, own it don't ignore it it, and act like you're right.[/quote]
I hate to be that guy, but this isn't a thread for you guys to argue. I honestly don't care who's right or who's wrong, but that'd be cool if we could keep to the topic this thread is about.[/quote]

Fair point. I can't control people replying to what I already posted, but I won't respond to em, not even the troll baiting he just did. Sad really.
It needs to be on topic posts. So did this change your mind at all? I'm firmly preferring cels myself even though most companies will probably never do it again.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by TripleRach » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:05 pm

This is ridiculous. Any further off-topic meta posts will be deleted. Stronger actions may occur as well.

Talk about animation. Not each other. If you think someone is causing a problem, use the report button.
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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by HourglassIndigo » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:09 pm

soppa saia people wrote:
HourglassIndigo wrote: I hate to be that guy, but this isn't a thread for you guys to argue. I honestly don't care who's right or who's wrong, but that'd be cool if we could keep to the topic this thread is about.
Hey man it's your topic you have all the right to be angry. I most likely won't post here again unless a certain someone makes a really dumb post.
It's all good, I appreciate your coolness about it!
LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote: Fair point. I can't control people replying to what I already posted, but I won't respond to em, not even the troll baiting he just did. Sad really.
It needs to be on topic posts. So did this change your mind at all? I'm firmly preferring cels myself even though most companies will probably never do it again.
They each have their pros and cons. As I said before, digital animation is more convinent and if used properly has a lot of possibilities. I grew up on the cels, but I can't deny that the digital animation is more pleasant to the eyes (specifically in BoG). If I didn't have to choose one I'd say I like them both equally because while digital is better on the eyes, the colors in cels were much more stylistic (like the backgrounds in Dragon Ball). But for sake of an answer I have to choose digital still. I am glad I started this topic though because a lot of people have different opinions on the matter and it's nice to see them!

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Re: Cels vs. Digital Animation

Post by ABED » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
ABED wrote:I love older animation, but one of the problems with it is (as far as I have seen) is that it's easier with cell animation to be "off model". It happened numerous times on Batman: The animated series. There would also be a weird rubbery quality to some things that should be solid. For instance, I remember at least one time where the batmobile turns a corner and bends when the car should stay straight and solid.
This has nothing to do with cel animation. The drawings are only corrected by the animation supervisors/directors, there is no changes made by working on cels or digital. The instance you are referring to is simply a key animator drawing off model.
Maybe you are correct, but I don't recall seeing DCAU characters horrendously off model or the Batmobile bending when the switch was made to digital.
That being said they both have their high points and their low points.
I feel the same way, and I think the argument also applies to things like practical effects vs. CGI.
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