Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

Looking back at the PL lists people gave a page back.Why does almost all of them have SSjBlue Goku very close to Golden Freeza ? Goku got wrecked completely by Freeza until the stamina issues happened.

[buutenks]

Goku didnt get wrecked,he was still standing up.he was simply beat up a little,but then so was freeza.

Plus a 20% difference is more than enough to stomp someone,and since freeza wasnt stomping goku he couldnt be anything more than 10% stronger,which would give him that small edge.

So goku being 7.5 and freeza 8.2-.8.4 is fine.

[Khin]

Goku didnt get wrecked,he was still standing up.he was simply beat up a little,but then so was freeza.

Plus a 20% difference is more than enough to stomp someone,and since freeza wasnt stomping goku he couldnt be anything more than 10% stronger,which would give him that small edge.

So goku being 7.5 and freeza 8.2-.8.4 is fine.

You must be talking about the movie.Goku got destroyed Freeza worse that in the movie.Goku lands some good hits on Freeza,but not as much as in the movie.I would say the gap between them is the same as the gap as SSj Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza on Namek,or a little bit lower.

[buutenks]

Goku didnt get wrecked,he was still standing up.he was simply beat up a little,but then so was freeza.

Plus a 20% difference is more than enough to stomp someone,and since freeza wasnt stomping goku he couldnt be anything more than 10% stronger,which would give him that small edge.

So goku being 7.5 and freeza 8.2-.8.4 is fine.

You must be talking about the movie.Goku got destroyed Freeza worse that in the movie.Goku lands some good hits on Freeza,but not as much as in the movie.I would say the gap between them is the same as the gap as SSj Goku and 100% Final Form Freeza on Namek,or a little bit lower.

No i am talking about super.

From PL in namek saga,a mere 10% difference in PL is enough for someone to beat up the other person quite easily.

So i dont see why freeza needs to be stronger by more than 10%.

[Khin]

No i am talking about super.

From PL in namek saga,a mere 10% difference in PL is enough for someone to beat up the other person quite easily.

So i dont see why freeza needs to be stronger by more than 10%.

Except for Dodoria an Kewi (Who both are off guard when they got killed).Most of the fights in the Freeza Arc with a 20% or so advantage ends in a fight where one have a huge advantage but the other one can still land some good hits.

Here are few examples :

Vegeta vs. Monster Zarbon 1 = Around 25% gap.
Vegeta vs. Recoome = Around 30% gap.
SSj Goku vs. 100% Final Form Freeza = Around 25% gap.

[LightBing]

My two cents: using gaps from the old power levels doesn't work with the God Scale. We just have SSJG Goku (6) vs 70% Beerus (7), which was a decent, somewhat close fight, with the winner never truly being in danger of losing. If the new arc confirms Goku and Vegeta still being weaker than Beerus and even Monaka, it greatly supports my reasoning.

This is what I have, I'm waiting for Herms to update the facts thread to review the FnF arc.

FnF Arc

Spoiler:

Base Goku - 6,2 (620)
SSB Goku - 7,2 (720)

Base Vegeta - 6,2 (620)
SSB Vegeta - 7,2 (720)

First Form Freeza - 2 (200)
Final Form Freeza - 4 (400)
Golden Freeza - 8 (800)
Exhausted Golden Freeza - 6,6 (660)

Base Gohan - 0,15 (15)
SSJ Gohan - 0,50 (50)

Piccolo - 0,07 (7)

Tagoma - 0,20 (25)
Ginyu - 0,30 (35)

[Bullza]

If Goku had supposedly already absorbed the power of a SSJG then why would he possibly need to train in order to learn to become a SSJG on his own?

As we saw against Beerus, even though Goku was as strong as he was while in SSG, he didn't have godly ki anymore. He may be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, but he isn't a god, he can sense the ki of gods only because he is strong enough to do it, not because he has it as well. But after doing training, by becoming a Super Saiyan (who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God), he gets the godly ki back, and also becomes even stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan God.

Why does it matter if he has God Ki at that point though? He has the power of a Super Saiyan God and he can sense God Ki already. What is there to gain by still becoming a Super Saiyan God unless it makes him stronger?

He uses Super Saiyan while as a God to become a Super Saiyan Blue but he could just turn into a Super Saiyan and get stronger anyway without having to become a God.

[Khin]

My two cents: using gaps from the old power levels doesn't work with the God Scale. We just have SSJG Goku (6) vs 70% Beerus (7), which was a decent, somewhat close fight, with the winner never truly being in danger of losing. If the new arc confirms Goku and Vegeta still being weaker than Beerus and even Monaka, it greatly supports my reasoning.

The 70% thing was never mentioned in Super,so you must be talking about the movie but didn't Goku says that he uses about 80% of his full power and then when he's about to go all out.He lost his SSjG form meaning Goku is not a 6 when Beerus used his 70%.

[Kaboom]

The power difference between Goku and Vegeta's "beyond god" base forms and their SSGSS forms hasn't been verified for us, and for the time being it's probably futile to try to assign one. It could be the same 50x boost as Super Saiyan, or for all we know they might not even need to transform to tap into all their god-power, but doing so makes it easier or more energy-efficient or something.

The best we can probably say is that, based on the events of RF and Super's Freeza arc, it's probably a substantial boost. Freeza's Golden transformation seemed to make him a lot more powerful, and Goku more or less matched that by going blue. So based on that, it could be like a 5x boost or something.

[LightBing]

My two cents: using gaps from the old power levels doesn't work with the God Scale. We just have SSJG Goku (6) vs 70% Beerus (7), which was a decent, somewhat close fight, with the winner never truly being in danger of losing. If the new arc confirms Goku and Vegeta still being weaker than Beerus and even Monaka, it greatly supports my reasoning.

The 70% thing was never mentioned in Super,so you must be talking about the movie but didn't Goku says that he uses about 80% of his full power and then when he's about to go all out.He lost his SSjG form meaning Goku is not a 6 when Beerus used his 70%.

Yes, I'm mentioning the movie. He still fought at full power with SSJG, If I remember correctly. In Super, I'm certain Goku was fighting at 100% before losing the form.
While the 70% line isn't in Super, I think it's a fair assumption since it was mostly the same as in the movie. We also need reference points, if we go exclusively by Super, we only known that Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta is weaker than 10% of Beerus, that's it.

[Bullza]

There doesn't seem to be enough space for everything to fit.

In both BoG and Super Beerus made a point of Goku's barely dropping or not dropping at all when his SSJG power ran out.

So if base Goku is around the level of SSJG at that point then he trains for months and gets a lot stronger according to Beerus then he should have surpassed his strenght as a SSJG.

Then he gets stronger, seemingly significantly so when he transforms into a SSJB. Golden Frieza is a good chunk more powerful still but he's supposed to be no match for Beerus.

There's no way that all fits between a 6 and a 10. People are putting SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza too close together for one thing.

[LightBing]

There doesn't seem to be enough space for everything to fit.

In both BoG and Super Beerus made a point of Goku's barely dropping or not dropping at all when his SSJG power ran out.

So if base Goku is around the level of SSJG at that point then he trains for months and gets a lot stronger according to Beerus then he should have surpassed his strenght as a SSJG.

Then he gets stronger, seemingly significantly so when he transforms into a SSJB. Golden Freeza is a good chunk more powerful still but he's supposed to be no match for Beerus.

There's no way that all fits between a 6 and a 10. People are putting SSJB Goku and Golden Freeza too close together for one thing.

It depends how one interprets the gaps.

What do you think of my list, using this logic: withing 0.5, close fight. Withing 1, possible to have a decent fight but very hard for the weaker one to win. More than 1, no chance.

Spoiler:

Base Goku - 6,2 (620)
SSB Goku - 7,2 (720)

Base Vegeta - 6,2 (620)
SSB Vegeta - 7,2 (720)

First Form Freeza - 2 (200)
Final Form Freeza - 4 (400)
Golden Freeza - 8 (800)
Exhausted Golden Freeza - 6,6 (660)

Base Gohan - 0,15 (15)
SSJ Gohan - 0,50 (50)

Piccolo - 0,07 (7)

Tagoma - 0,20 (25)
Ginyu - 0,30 (35)

Note, it doesn't work for weak fighters (below 1), necessary to use a different logic.

[Bullza]

Well if I were to do a list now I'd go by the Goku and Beerus battle to decide the gaps. Beerus was a 7 and Goku was a 6 or Beerus was 17% stronger. Beerus won comfortably but still had to take it pretty seriously.

I think for sure the gap between Golden Frieza and SSJB Goku is bigger because he beat him much quicker and with less effort.

The gap between Beerus and Frieza and SSJB Vegeta and an exhausted Frieza would be bigger still.

Perhaps something like

Whis - 15
Beerus - 10
Golden Frieza - 8
SSJB Goku - 6.7
SSJB Vegeta - 6.7
SSJG Goku - 6
Golden Frieza (Exhausted) - 5.5
SSJ2 Vegeta (Angry) - 0.5

I can't see how base Goku and Vegeta can be as strong or stronger than SSJG and still fit in there. I think there's evidence for them being stronger than SSJG and evidence for them being weaker.

Anyone weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta I'd tie in with the other power level system. Tagoma I could see being around Perfect Cell level. Gohan not a clue but possibly Mystic level with Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

This is what Herms had to say on his Twitter.

Champa+Beerus actually briefly fight, but Whis+Vados stop them because their battle would mean the destruction of both their universes.

I wonder if they literally meant the two universes would be destroyed as a result of them fighting. If so it is a step up from Beerus and Goku having the potential to destroy a (single) universe with their fight.

[Pannaliciour]

I think that Goku in the manga is actually stronger than Beerus in ssjB at this moment. Why? Because Champa is very suprised how fast/strong Goku is. Even Vados was suprised. This means something.

It's a assumption because Champa saw a very weak Goku before the tournament.

[Birusu16]

I think that Goku in the manga is actually stronger than Beerus in ssjB at this moment. Why? Because Champa is very suprised how fast/strong Goku is. Even Vados was suprised. This means something.

It's a assumption because Champa saw a very weak Goku before the tournament.

They're surprised because the only time they saw Goku before this fight was when he was in that heavy training suit. Champa even thought Goku and Vegeta would be pushovers due to how slow they were moving in those suits hence his (and Vados') surprise when he sees that they're really not that slow. They weren't surprised about his speed relative to their own, but his speed relative to his speed when he had that suit on. Nothing about that statement implies that Goku is above Beerus.

[Saiyan007]

This is what Herms had to say on his Twitter.

Champa+Beerus actually briefly fight, but Whis+Vados stop them because their battle would mean the destruction of both their universes.

I wonder if they literally meant the two universes would be destroyed as a result of them fighting. If so it is a step up from Beerus and Goku having the potential to destroy a (single) universe with their fight.

why wouldn't they mean the two universes?It literally says both of thier universes would be destroyed if they just let them go at it.

It's a huge step up from the Goku and Beerus fight

[saunasolmu]

I wonder if U6 and U7 just next to each other or if the destruction of the universes has more to do with them being the Gods of Destruction of said universes.

[kinisking]

Whis: 15
Beerus: 10

Vados: 16
Champa: 9

Freeza: 1.5
-- Final form: 4
-- Golden form: 8

Goku: 5
-- SSB: 7.5

Vegeta: 5
-- SSB: 7.5

Gohan: .3
-- SSJ: .6
-- SSJ enraged: 1

Ginyu: .4
Tagoma: .45

[MajinVegetaPD]

I think Goku and Vegeta will surprise both Beerus and Champa during this tournament.

People are overlooking the fact that Whis implied a few episodes back that Goku and Vegeta sparring against each other increases their respective powers very fast. Didn't they just spend (or they are about to in the anime) the equivalent of 3 years sparring each other in the ROSAT? I think the both of them will show to be at least stronger than Monako.