Trunks, Goten & 18

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:16 pm

Ginyu is faster than Butta. Goku could dodge everything Butta did but Ginyu kept him on his toes.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:40 pm

Duo wrote:Decent points, but there's no proof to that. He says he has Super Gotenks in him, so we must assume that Gotenks was transformed just as when he was absorbed. He isn't shown inside Boo during this time so there is no way to prove it otherwise.

Gotenks' fusion breaks up in five minutes when he uses SSJ3. Buu used Gotenks' power for thirty.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:54 pm

Does Boo resembling Piccolo actually mean he's stronger? I don't think so. Boo seems to take on the appearance of the person he last absorbed. Like "Buff Boo" turning to Majin "Fat" Boo. The Great Lord of Lords was weaker than the South Kaio-shin, but Boo still became like the Great Lord of Lords anyway.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:27 pm

But then why would he be Gotenks and then change to Piccolo? The order wasn't what changed. It was the power.

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:18 am

Duo wrote:
Rocketman wrote:
Duo wrote:Boo refers to the Gotenks within him as "Super Gotenks" meaning, regardless of the time it took, Super Saiyan level 3 Gotenks was the one empowering him.
And since:

1. People get knocked out when they're absorbed.
2. KO'd Saiyans can't maintain Super Saiyan forms.

Buu must be able to use the entire power of the people he absorbed, regardless of transformations. Since he took on Piccolo's appearance, Piccolo must be stronger than the kids.
Decent points, but there's no proof to that. He says he has Super Gotenks in him, so we must assume that Gotenks was transformed just as when he was absorbed. He isn't shown inside Boo during this time so there is no way to prove it otherwise.

I have one thing to point out in regard to the "Gotenks went unconscious and powered down when absorbed" idea... don't the laws of physics (as ignored as they are already in the story) get completely turned upside-down inside Buu? I think if, he really wanted to, Buu could have managed to keep Gotenks in his SSJ3 form, even if he did go unconscious, simply because of that... o_o;

Also, as to Gotenks only being able to fight as SSJ3 for five minutes before de-fusing, where you find proof of that? The only time I've ever heard Gotenks (or any of the other characters, for that matter) mentioning something about five minutes until fusion ended was when he was in the middle of fighting Buu, and he was calling the dude out of the hole he and Piccolo had made with him, saying something like, "C'mon, I've only got five minutes left!"; and the two of them had already been duking it out for quite a while.

Finally (on a not-so-related note), I've read in a couple of places on this thread that Goku couldn't match up with the Cell Juniors during the Cell Games. I happened to miss that particular episode, so I'm confused a bit; is this because he simply wasn't that powerful at that point in time, or was it because he'd already used up a lot of his energy fighting Cell Sr. that he didn't have that kind of power to spare? Somebody please clear that up for me... D:

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 9:43 am

It was because he was exhausted and Cell was at full power.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 10:10 am

Well, Goku was tired fighting against the Cell Jrs. The anime did a better job of showing a struggle in a few of those fights imo. As for Gotenks and his SSj3 form, when in RoSaT Trunks and Goten are talking about the form and how they could only do it for five minutes and that it even canceled out their fusion.

Their plan was to make it the fight more dramatic by using SSj3 at the end (Keep in mind that they were confident that Gotenks in his base form could give Buu trouble). When Buu fights Gotenks, Gotenks says that it'll take an hour before he could fuse again. I'm not sure if Gotenks was aware of how much time he actually had because if he did, his defusion wouldn't come off as such a shock (actually it was kind of funny to him too).
-Rick

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:14 pm

Super Saiyans don't always drop out of the forms when they're unconscious, you know. For example, Cooler somehow kept Goku and Vegeta at SSj when he defeated them and tried to assimilate them into the Big Gheti Star. Like Kino said, Buu probably had some way to keep Gotenks in SSj3 when he absorbed him, but apparently couldn't do anything about the Fusion time.

Also, Goku was knocked out several times as an SSj4, but retained the form. But SSj4 is probably different in that regard, so meh.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:40 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Super Saiyans don't always drop out of the forms when they're unconscious, you know. For example, Cooler somehow kept Goku and Vegeta at SSj when he defeated them and tried to assimilate them into the Big Gheti Star.
...
Also, Goku was knocked out several times as an SSj4, but retained the form. But SSj4 is probably different in that regard, so meh.

Movie and GT.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:01 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Super Saiyans don't always drop out of the forms when they're unconscious, you know. For example, Cooler somehow kept Goku and Vegeta at SSj when he defeated them and tried to assimilate them into the Big Gheti Star.
...
Also, Goku was knocked out several times as an SSj4, but retained the form. But SSj4 is probably different in that regard, so meh.
Movie and GT.

Oh, for pete's sake. Just because they don't fit into people's precious "canon" arguments doesn't mean that their contents can't or shouldn't be used towards digging a little further into the DragonBall world.

Yeah, Movie 4 couldn't have happened in "canon," but it revealed to us that whistling sounds like "nails-on-a-chalkboard-times-9000" to Namekans.

Yeah, Movie 5 couldn't have happened in "canon," but it gave us a further look into Freeza's family.

Yeah, Movie 7 couldn't have happened in "canon," but it showed us that being a Super Saiyan limits your capabilities with a Genki Dama.

Yeah, Movie 12 couldn't have happened in "canon," but we got Gogeta out of it.

For pete's Unicorn!ing sake...

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:13 pm

I think this was filler, but it comes to mind...

Goku: *sleeps at SSJ*
Kururin: *hits with rock*
Goku: Hey! What'd you do that for?

... Or rather, when Goku and Gohan were training for full-power ssj, they kept the form even while sleeping, which means that Buu could probably have gotten a similar thing to happen with the others. Sort of forcing them to sleep as his power took hold, but keeping them in the same energy state and drawing them in, and perhaps manipulating that energy to whatever extent he desired.
That could have screwed up when Goten and Trunks split though. Maybe splitting interfered with Buu's control over their energy rather than just dropping his power. Maybe he lost the absoluteness of his control when they split, at least long enough for them to drop to a normal form, but since they were unconscious and trapped inside him then, regaining control of them was possible, although he had already taken the Piccolo form and didn't really have time to make himself transform again, because he needed a more ready source of power (Gohan).

But the "over a third" comment still makes me wonder...

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:16 pm

When Cell knocked Vegeta out with that backbreaking elbow, he went out of SSJ. That was the only way to tell if he was unconscious, or dead. They wouldn't have taken that as a sign for either of those if he could still maintain SSJ.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:18 pm

That's true. Though that's involuntary, sudden, unexpected unconsciousness without the use of magic, so while it would work on basically any non-ssj4 that gets knocked out, we can't really tell if Buu's methods worked the same way.

Actually, I'm starting to think that Buu absorbing people doesn't count as knocking them out even though they lose consciousness, but when Gotenks split into Goten and Trunks, that might have counted as unconsciousness, because... umm... Buu was controling Gotenks, not his components, but they wouldn't just wake up because of it.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:32 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh, for pete's sake. Just because they don't fit into people's precious "canon" arguments doesn't mean that their contents can't or shouldn't be used towards digging a little further into the DragonBall world.

Vegeta depowers when he passes out after 18 breaks his arms. Goku depowers after Vegeta clobbers him on the back of the head. Pardon if I don't accept movie/GT evidence over that.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:40 pm

Rocketman wrote:
SSj Kaboom wrote:Oh, for pete's sake. Just because they don't fit into people's precious "canon" arguments doesn't mean that their contents can't or shouldn't be used towards digging a little further into the DragonBall world.
Vegeta depowers when he passes out after 18 breaks his arms. Goku depowers after Vegeta clobbers him on the back of the head. Pardon if I don't accept movie/GT evidence over that.

And I'm not refuting those. I'm just saying that there may be exceptions to the "rule." Just because the ever-so-terribly-"non canon" GT and Movies are the ones to present those exceptions doesn't make them any less credible.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 5:17 pm

Less credible, no. Superceeded by manga/original anime when contradicted yes. (I very much agree with what you've stated, SSJ Caboom.

.) . . . *decides that touching fire is a bad idea for those who aren't Goku*.

... I still like the Buu-made-them-sleep-without-de-powering-because-he
had-his-power/matter-inside-of-them-sorta-and-Goten-and-Trunks-were
only-knocked-out-when-split-because-Buu's-power-temporarily-broke theory... even though... it's pretty unsubstantiated.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:06 pm

caejones wrote:... I still like the Buu-made-them-sleep-without-de-powering-because-he-had-his-power/matter-inside-of-them

...

O_o

Goten-and-Trunks-were-only-knocked-out-when-split-because-Buu's-power-temporarily-broke theory... even though... it's pretty unsubstantiated.

Piccolo was KO'ed too. As was Gohan when he was absorbed.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:18 pm

I'm kind of lost here. Are we talking about Trunks and Goten's strength or Buu's Absorption abilities?

P.S. Why is this page horizontally challenged? o_O
-Rick

KinoFourpaws · Post by **KinoFourpaws** » Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:42 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:I'm kind of lost here. Are we talking about Trunks and Goten's strength or Buu's Absorption abilities?

P.S. Why is this page horizontally challenged? o_O
-Rick

*points up to caejones's last post*

And you so totally took that the wrong way, Rocketman... xDDDD

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Fri Jan 26, 2007 4:33 am

EEK! *Fixes post*

I was thinking that Piccolo and Gohan were indeed out, but not in the... ur... normal way, if that makes any sense, but Goten and Trunks wound up "normally unconscious" when they split.