Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Skar]

@Bullza
Good points thanks. I was under the impression they were like a 6-7 in base and 7-8 in SSJB but I guess that wouldn't work. Now I'm a little confused though. When Beerus said Goku was stronger in episode 21, did Beerus assume Goku could transform further? I don't think Beerus would be interested in fighting Goku again if he was weaker than during their first battle.

[LightBing]

Is there any evidence that suggests RoF base Goku was weaker than SSJ God from BoG?

I don't know if it's evidence but there's some questionable things to me.

- Whis comparing Goku and Vegeta's power to Beerus as being like a small tree and Beerus' Temple.

- SSJG being a power level Goku couldn't reach on his own but Vegeta reaches it only 6 months.

- Beerus' sneeze blast being enough to kill Goku and Vegeta when SSJG Goku seemed to take on worse but was able to keep fighting.

- If base Goku was as stronger or stronger than SSJG then why was nobody watching making a comment on the ridiculous amount of power that Goku had?

- Goku training to be able to turn into a SSJG on his own seems pointless when he already has the power of a SSJG supposedly.

- If base Goku = SSJG Goku then the pitiful boost that SSJB seems to give which is not how it's made out to be at all.

- Only when Goku turns into a SSJB does he mention being a SSJG and having the power of a SSJG and then people like Krillin only then commenting about him getting stronger and stronger.

- At least going by the Super version are we really supposed to believe that Sorbets ring laser would have done that much damage to SSJG Goku if he were able to be impaled by Beerus and still continue?

- There should have been no need for Vegeta to turn into a SSJB to fight Golden Freeza. It implies the weakened Freeza who couldn't even hurt SSJB was still somehow stronger than SSJG Goku.

- The numbers don't fit at all.

The first point is the only one that makes me question Base Goku = SSJG, however the line makes sense with everything that follows after. From 6 to 10 is an immense gap, that's what we're being told.

Vegeta didn't reach that level on his own, he did it only because Whis trained him.

Whis said that while sleeping Beerus doesn't hold back. For all we know his sneeze might be stronger than anything he did against SSJG Goku.

Why would they? If Base Goku is equal or close to SSJG, they already felt that power before. Goku lost SSJG during the Beerus fight, everyone commented on it at the time.

His explanation seems to be refer to the God Ki and not actual power.

Sorbet scene has no place in a power discussion. It's clear as water in the movie and Super that Goku is off guard.

Vegeta turning SSJB doesn't necessary mean it was necessary to finish Freeza. It makes sense in-Universe and in the context of the movie. Vegeta would like Freeza to know that he's the legendary SSJ (how he refers himself) and the added satisfaction to kill in that form. I mean remember Namek? For us views it's to show that Vegeta also is a SSJB, in equal standing with Goku. Plus new transformation, more money opportunities.

Which numbers? The "God Scale"? Only if one interprets it like the scouter numbers and there's no indication so far that's on it should be.
So far Base Vegeta and Base Goku being slightly superior to SSJG is the most likely fact. Nothing truly contradicts it, the first point you made is the only one I would call doubtful.

The tournament should dissipate all doubts.

[Khin]

The thing that make me believe that ROF Base Goku > SSjG Goku is Beerus' line in episode 21 saying that Goku got far stronger than before.(Goku is in base at that time sparring w/ Vegeta but he knew that Goku can turn into SSj so he could be talking about it but whatever)

[Bullza]

When Beerus said Goku was stronger in episode 21, did Beerus assume Goku could transform further?

The safe assumption is that yes he did know. The SSJB tease happened before the 4 months passed and when Beerus woke up. They must have learned to become SSJB within that 4 months and Beerus would have been around to know about it.

If he didn't know about it then he (and Whis) would have commented on it when they saw him fighting Frieza but they didn't.

Vegeta didn't reach that level on his own, he did it only because Whis trained him.

I don't think that's what they meant. SSJG was borrowed power, it wasn't Goku's power and it was supposed to be a level could never reach normally. Vegeta was trained by someone but the strenght was his own.

Whis said that while sleeping Beerus doesn't hold back. For all we know his sneeze might be stronger than anything he did against SSJG Goku.

Well he wasn't asleep, just sleepy and if he weren't holding back I'm sure he'd have done a lot more damage than just destroying a planet. I find it hard to believe that sneeze blast is more powerful than the giant sun sphere thing he threw at Goku.

Why would they? If Base Goku is equal or close to SSJG, they already felt that power before. Goku lost SSJG during the Beerus fight, everyone commented on it at the time.

Hmmm, I remember them saying they could sense him again, I don't think they made a mention if his huge power though which is odd but alright. Still if Goku at that point was stronger than SSJG then why doesn't Krillin comment about Goku getting stronger then? He doesn't make that comment until he becomes a SSJB.

Vegeta turning SSJB doesn't necessary mean it was necessary to finish Freeza.

The out of Universe reason is understandable but he could have still beat him down anyway. When he turns into a SSJB he says he also has the power of a god which he should have had beforehand anyway.

Which numbers? The "God Scale"?

That's right, there's not enough room for base form to be above SSJG and then for them to have a new form which boosts their power and then have them power up further later into the fight and then have them train for 3 years and still (possibly) be weaker than Monaca whose weaker than Beerus.

[dbgtFO]

Hmmm, I remember them saying they could sense him again, I don't think they made a mention if his huge power though which is odd but alright. Still if Goku at that point was stronger than SSJG then why doesn't Krillin comment about Goku getting stronger then? He doesn't make that comment until he becomes a SSJB.

He does actually(if the subs are accurate, which unfortunately we don't know yet).
In episode 24 about 4½ minutes in, while watching base Goku and Freeza fight, Krillin and Gohan have an exchange about their powers:

Gohan: Their ki are incredible!
Krillin: Goku is stronger than I have ever seen him, yet Freeza is the same.. just how! It gives me chills.

Actually, closing my eyes and really listening to that, I can't hear Krillin mention Goku and Freeza at all(instead it sounds like he mentions Beerus ), so yeah, maybe that's just another mistranslation(waiting for confirmation).
EDIT
Ah sorry, I just saw TripleRach's summary of episode 24 and it says this:

and Kuririn notes that he feels real fear this time, unlike during the battle with Beerus.

Whoops, guess that's a line to be added to the fact checker, if Herms decides to cover from episode 22-27.

[Birusu16]

No. That statement was only in the movie and nothing suggests they didn't have SSJB when that statement was made. Not to mention two fighters working together doesn't double their strength. I'm not sure where you got that from.

When did I say it would double their strength? I'm saying that if Beerus is a 10 then I'm assuming, in order for two fighters to stand a chance against him together, their total power has to be at least equal to his. It's not like Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz where they were relying on a concentrated technique like the Special Beam Cannon in order to overpower Raditz. Beerus is more skilled than Raditz so he's not going to toy with them and give them enough time to charge an attack. In episode 21, Beerus said that Goku was stronger than before. SSJB wasn't revealed at the time and it didn't seem like Beerus knew about it yet. Is there any evidence that suggests RoF base Goku was weaker than SSJ God from BoG?

This is all irrelevant because Whis never makes the statement that Goku and Vegeta can go toe to toe with Beerus in Super. The only time that statement was made was in the movie and it's implied they already had SSJB by that point in the movie. Your entire point is moot.

[GodVegetto91]

Okay guys here's a crazy idea i came up with for next episode.
Now we know in Chapter 6 they explained and showed us a flashback of Beerus fighting with Champa and why they don't fight anymore..
Now what if.. In next episode they finally reveal and show that both universes 6& 7 DID indeed ended up completely destroyed once in the past.. Surely it wouldn't make any difference since we know that Whis (& maybe Vados too) can turn back time.. It would make for an awesome reason for Whis to use that ability. Aswell as to show the fans that they aren't all talk. But actually do it too.

So what do you guys think about this possibility?
That Champa and Beerus' previous fight caused for the destruction of both their universes. Allowing Whis to turn back time and make everything back to normal.

This might also explain why Old Kaioshin was so terrified of Beerus fighting someone on his level and knew what would happen to the universe.

[dbgtFO]

Okay guys here's a crazy idea i came up with for next episode.
Now we know in Chapter 6 they explained and showed us a flashback of Beerus fighting with Champa and why they don't fight anymore..
Now what if.. In next episode they finally reveal and show that both universes 6& 7 DID indeed ended up completely destroyed once in the past.. Surely it wouldn't make any difference since we know that Whis (& maybe Vados too) can turn back time.. It would make for an awesome reason for Whis to use that ability. Aswell as to show the fans that they aren't all talk. But actually do it too.

So what do you guys think about this possibility?
That Champa and Beerus' previous fight caused for the destruction of both their universes. Allowing Whis to turn back time and make everything back to normal.

This might also explain why Old Kaioshin was so terrified of Beerus fighting someone on his level and knew what would happen to the universe.

I guess that would be a good way of explaining it, but damn, if Whis and Vados can just recreate two entire universes just by turning back time
Seems a bit too overpowered, even for Whis and Vados.

[Bullza]

I just hope they show the fight at all, they left out the Goku and Vegeta "fight" and the preview for the next episode didn't show them fighting either so I'd expect it not to be in there.

Which would be a shame because it looked great in the manga what with them punching planets and them going boom.

[apex_pretador]

Is there anything that implies RoF base Goku is weaker than BoG SSJ God?

Krillin sensed SS goku vs beerus.

He said that goku's ki was bigger than ever, when he was in BASE form vs freeza.

Base goku wasn't that much weaker than SSG goku in BoG fight. Then, we see base vegeta surpassing goku by a margin in 6 months. After that, whis commented on how the training has better results now , as both of them pushed each other to their limits, for atleast 4 months.
After that, they go to whis' staff thing, where they get a lot more stronger.

All signs indicate RoF goku base being atleast as strong as SSG goku, except - well - sorbet.

[dbgtFO]

Is there anything that implies RoF base Goku is weaker than BoG SSJ God?

Krillin sensed SS goku vs beerus.

He said that goku's ki was bigger than ever, when he was in BASE form vs freeza.

Incorrect due to faulty fansubs. I was fooled too, but cleared it up a few posts above yours.

[apex_pretador]

Is there anything that implies RoF base Goku is weaker than BoG SSJ God?

Krillin sensed SS goku vs beerus.

He said that goku's ki was bigger than ever, when he was in BASE form vs freeza.

Incorrect due to faulty fansubs. I was fooled too, but cleared it up a few posts above yours.

Oh, then SSG is likely above base saiyans in that case

[Skar]

No. That statement was only in the movie and nothing suggests they didn't have SSJB when that statement was made. Not to mention two fighters working together doesn't double their strength. I'm not sure where you got that from.

When did I say it would double their strength? I'm saying that if Beerus is a 10 then I'm assuming, in order for two fighters to stand a chance against him together, their total power has to be at least equal to his. It's not like Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz where they were relying on a concentrated technique like the Special Beam Cannon in order to overpower Raditz. Beerus is more skilled than Raditz so he's not going to toy with them and give them enough time to charge an attack. In episode 21, Beerus said that Goku was stronger than before. SSJB wasn't revealed at the time and it didn't seem like Beerus knew about it yet. Is there any evidence that suggests RoF base Goku was weaker than SSJ God from BoG?

This is all irrelevant because Whis never makes the statement that Goku and Vegeta can go toe to toe with Beerus in Super. The only time that statement was made was in the movie and it's implied they already had SSJB by that point in the movie. Your entire point is moot.

My mistake I thought Whis also made the comparison in episode 21 before they entered the alternate Hyperbolic Time Chamber place. I looked back and I must've gotten mixed up with the movie.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

- Whis comparing Goku and Vegeta's power to Beerus as being like a small tree and Beerus' Temple.

There is a huge difference between a 6 and a 10, which is what Whis is trying to explain.

- SSJG being a power level Goku couldn't reach on his own but Vegeta reaches it only 6 months.

Goku said that before Vegeta accomplished this feat.

- Beerus' sneeze blast being enough to kill Goku and Vegeta when SSJG Goku seemed to take on worse but was able to keep fighting.

That sneeze ki blast was at full power. Goku had never fought Beerus at full power.

- If base Goku was as stronger or stronger than SSJG then why was nobody watching making a comment on the ridiculous amount of power that Goku had?

They never made any comment about SS Goku either, who we knew that was as strong as SSG Goku.

- Goku training to be able to turn into a SSJG on his own seems pointless when he already has the power of a SSJG supposedly.

He didn't have godly ki in base/SS like he did in SSG. And with SSGSS, he became stronger than SSG, so it wasn't pointless at all.

- If base Goku = SSJG Goku then the pitiful boost that SSJB seems to give which is not how it's made out to be at all.

Super Saiyan Grade 2 gives a smaller than x2 boost, yet it's not made out as pitiful at all.

- Only when Goku turns into a SSJB does he mention being a SSJG and having the power of a SSJG and then people like Krillin only then commenting about him getting stronger and stronger.

No, he says that he is a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Meaning that he had the power of SSG before becoming a Super Saiyan.

- At least going by the Super version are we really supposed to believe that Sorbets ring laser would have done that much damage to SSJG Goku if he were able to be impaled by Beerus and still continue?

He could continue fighting Beerus because he was healed by the power of SSG.

- There should have been no need for Vegeta to turn into a SSJB to fight Golden Freeza. It implies the weakened Freeza who couldn't even hurt SSJB was still somehow stronger than SSJG Goku.

Where is the rule that weakened Golden Freeza can't be stronger than SSG Goku?

- The numbers don't fit at all.

They do, unless you don't want them to.


And what about the feats that place base Goku & Vegeta with SSG power at SSG level?

• Base Goku could keep fighting at the same level as a SSG, and even managed to land a hit on Beerus when he couldn't do it as a SSG at full power, though that happened with the help of Shunkan Ido. [BoG]
• The silhouette of SSG Goku appeared behind base Goku, implying that he has the power of SSG. [FnF manga]
• Base Goku could stop the huge ki ball with a punch, while as a Super Saiyan, who is confirmed to be as strong as SSG, couldn't even push it back.
• Base Goku & base Vegeta could survive hits from full power Beerus.
• Base Goku & base Vegeta impressed Beerus to the point that he wanted to fight them because they had grown stronger.

Not to mention that Beerus said in BoG that Goku's power decreased insignificantly after SSG disappeared, not that he regained most of SSG's power after he turned SS, and Goku never noticed any change in his power while going from SSG to base to SS.

[Hugo Boss]

Comparing Goku and Vegeta to gods that time was like comparing a 20ft-tree to a 2,000ft-tree. I guess the difference is much greater than less than a half.

Also, not holding back doesn't correlate with full effort.

[saunasolmu]

Climbing up even 1 point on that Godly scale is way more of an increase than Goku gained during his whole life pre-BoG though.

[Bullza]

There is a huge difference between a 6 and a 10, which is what Whis is trying to explain.

It's not even double, it's not even 70% more. Saying their power is like a few metre tall tree compared to a temple several hundred metres tall makes no sense.

Goku said that before Vegeta accomplished this feat.

I know, if it's such an enormous power that Goku could never reach it because SSJG is seemingly far above the likes of SSJ3 Vegito then the same applies to Vegeta (perhaps more so) and yet he does in just 6 months and this was before he'd even starting sparring.

That sneeze ki blast was at full power.

No they never said that.

They never made any comment about SS Goku either, who we knew that was as strong as SSG Goku.

It was said about SSJ Goku but how base Goku compares to that is not clear.

If SSJ = SSJG then is base also close to SSJG when SSJ is supposed to increase their strenght 50 fold?

He didn't have godly ki in base/SS like he did in SSG. And with SSGSS, he became stronger than SSG, so it wasn't pointless at all.

Why does it matter if doesn't have godly Ki in base? If he's supposed to be as strong as SSJG already then it makes no difference. How it appeared is that Goku tapped into SSG and SSJ power at the same time to boost his strenght and all the comments afterward made it sound like he powered up because he was a God.

Super Saiyan Grade 2 gives a smaller than x2 boost, yet it's not made out as pitiful at all.

SSJ2 boosted Gohan's power by twice the amount when he was already a Mastered SSJ. Vegeta and Trunks were just normal SSJ and the other grades would't have given them such a pitiful boost.

No, he says that he is a Super Saiyan who is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Meaning that he had the power of SSG before becoming a Super Saiyan.

Yeah and its only after transforming does he mention "with the power of a Super Saiyan God" as well. Vegeta did the same. King Kai makes a scene about how Goku learned to become a God on his own, Krillin only then comments about him getting stronger, when Vegeta transforms only then does Goku say that all that power is his own.

Even in the movies dub Goku says he learned to tap into SSJG power on his own. Everything makes it look as though Goku taps into SSJG power and greatly powers up because of it.

Where is the rule that weakened Golden Freeza can't be stronger than SSG Goku?

Why would there be a rule? If Golden Frieza is so much weaker than SSJB at that point that he couldn't even hurt Goku and SSJB is only supposed to be a small boost over SSJG then how is Golden Frieza still stronger than SSJG?

And what about the feats that place base Goku & Vegeta with SSG power at SSG level?

They aren't really up to much.

1. Yeah Goku got in a solid punch to Beerus that seemed to hurt him somewhat but Goku never fought at 100% as a SSJG and wasn't using IT. In Super Goku got in plenty of shots as a SSJG but never even fought him in base.

2. Only happened in the manga and might not necessarily imply that.

3. Was a blink and you'd miss it moment when he appears in base for a few seconds. In the movie he struggles to stop the attack in base then actually transforms into SSJG where he clearly powers up enough for him to stop the attack.

It seems as though the part when base Goku punches the blast is when he should have turned into a SSJG like in the movie.

4. It wasn't a "hit", he turned over in his sleep and flicked his leg out or just moved his tail. It's like when you kick the blankets out, it's not the same as a throwing a proper martial arts kick. The 70% proper strikes likely had more power behind it then him turning over, holding back or not.

5. Like I mentioned in a previous post Beerus would have known that they were able to become SSJB because Beerus said that line, they were then thrown into Whis' staff, they came out, they went straight to Earth, Beerus went to Earth saw Goku as a SSJB and said nothing about it or Whis.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It's not even double, it's not even 70% more. Saying their power is like a few metre tall tree compared to a temple several hundred metres tall makes no sense.

It doesn't have to be double to be huge. Look at Vegeta vs Zarbon.

I know, if it's such an enormous power that Goku could never reach it because SSJG is seemingly far above the likes of SSJ3 Vegito then the same applies to Vegeta (perhaps more so) and yet he does in just 6 months and this was before he'd even starting sparring.

By that logic, Goku isn't a Super Saiyan because Vegeta said that it should be impossible for Goku to become a Super Saiyan.

No they never said that.

Vegeta said that Beerus doesn't hold back when he is asleep, and he was still sleepy when he sneezed.

It was said about SSJ Goku but how base Goku compares to that is not clear.

In BoG, Beerus says that the decrease after SSG disappeared was insignificant. After SSG disappeared, Goku was in base, not in SS.

If SSJ = SSJG then is base also close to SSJG when SSJ is supposed to increase their strenght 50 fold?

SS no longer gives a x50 boost. If it did, base Goku wouldn't have been able to fight with Beerus as well as he did as a SSG, or hold Beerus' ki ball in the movie, or destroy it with a punch in Super.

Why does it matter if doesn't have godly Ki in base? If he's supposed to be as strong as SSJG already then it makes no difference. How it appeared is that Goku tapped into SSG and SSJ power at the same time to boost his strenght and all the comments afterward made it sound like he powered up because he was a God.

He didn't have godly ki as a Super Saiyan against Beerus even though he was as strong as a Super Saiyan God, so what's your point?

SSJ2 boosted Gohan's power by twice the amount when he was already a Mastered SSJ. Vegeta and Trunks were just normal SSJ and the other grades would't have given them such a pitiful boost.

So, what boost do you think that the Grades gave?

Yeah and its only after transforming does he mention "with the power of a Super Saiyan God" as well. Vegeta did the same. King Kai makes a scene about how Goku learned to become a God on his own, Krillin only then comments about him getting stronger, when Vegeta transforms only then does Goku say that all that power is his own.

Yes, because Super Saiyan God was the only form with godly ki. Base & Super Saiyan didn't have godly ki, even after Goku absorbed the power of SSG.

Why would there be a rule? If Golden Freeza is so much weaker than SSJB at that point that he couldn't even hurt Goku and SSJB is only supposed to be a small boost over SSJG then how is Golden Freeza still stronger than SSJG?

Can you stop saying that a x1.25-1.5 boost is small & pitiful? You are wrong, official numbers show that a x1.03 boost is big enough to make a huge difference.

1. Yeah Goku got in a solid punch to Beerus that seemed to hurt him somewhat but Goku never fought at 100% as a SSJG and wasn't using IT. In Super Goku got in plenty of shots as a SSJG but never even fought him in base.

SSG Goku was fighting at 100% inside the cave. SS Goku then fought better because he was angry.

3. Was a blink and you'd miss it moment when he appears in base for a few seconds.

Are you serious now?

In the movie he struggles to stop the attack in base then actually transforms into SSJG where he clearly powers up enough for him to stop the attack.

We don't know if he powered up. He couldn't stop the attack as a Super Saiyan either, so it is possible that he did better as a SSG because he was angry, like he did better in his fight with Beerus as a SS because he was angry.

It seems as though the part when base Goku punches the blast is when he should have turned into a SSJG like in the movie.

But he didn't, he did it in base.

4. It wasn't a "hit", he turned over in his sleep and flicked his leg out or just moved his tail. It's like when you kick the blankets out, it's not the same as a throwing a proper martial arts kick. The 70% proper strikes likely had more power behind it then him turning over, holding back or not.

It was a hit at full power, and you can't prove that his strikes at 70% had more power.

[Helios518]

Climbing up even 1 point on that Godly scale is way more of an increase than Goku gained during his whole life pre-BoG though.

You can even argue that moving up 0.001 in the Godly scale is much more than anyone in DBZ.

[Hellspawn28]

Well Beerus hinted that he wants to wish the whole universe to be destroyed. I guess he is not a full universe buster like the fanboys wank out to be if that is true.