Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Pannaliciour]

When I saw Vados carrying those planet sides super dragon balls, all I was thinking:

[Neon Z]

EOZ is dead. Not sure why you guys are still trying to cling on to it for dear life. It doesn't fit anymore.

There is a 0% chance Goku would get excited about fighting a Pure Buu level opponent after all the events that are soon to transpire. He has Vegeta/Beerus/Whis etc. to test his power against.

And that's not even the kicker. With Goku and Vegeta's new found relationship with each other, it would make absolutely 0 sense for them to completely ignore each other for years.

End of Z was still officially acknowledged as recently as Revival F though, where most of those problems already existed. Aside from timeline issues regarding Bra, Super hasn't really made things any worse.

[Helios518]

When I saw Vados carrying those planet sides super dragon balls, all I was thinking:

You're not the only one. Do we know the size of those planets (I'm just curious)?

[RandomGuy96]

We have no idea how much power base Goku was using against Oob,

Listen. If you want to just declare that BOG/FNF and EOZ happened in different universes, fine. But you and I both know that the tiresome "he was holding back" explanation everyone always uses doesn't make a lick of sense in this context.

and we have no idea how strong Oob was. Goku expected him to be a fighter probably strong enough to beat him, but he also expected him to be a trained fighter. It is possible that Oob was qualified as the amazing guy that Goku expected in the sense that he has the potential to reach or even surpass Goku's level.

He expected him to be as strong as Pure Buu. Because he wanted to fight Pure Buu again. You're doing mental gymnastics to assert that he expected him to, for no reason, be ludicrously above Pure Buu and close to his oddly specific god base level. When you and I know both know that this makes absolutely no sense.

It just contradicts your preconceptions on power levels.

Even ignoring BoG/FnF/Super, if Oob was as strong as Pure Boo, Goku shouldn't worry about losing since he was confident he could beat Pure Boo 10 years ago, and he failed to do so only because he miscalculated.

He was confident he could beat him if left to charge an attack while Vegeta distracted him, not in a regular fight. And this is actually the logic I use to say that there's not a big difference in power between Buu arc and EOZ Goku. But if you're considering those two movies, then it's actually very obvious what was happening in that scene. He just wanted to fight Uub in base at the tourament because that's where they were roughly equivalent, and in the long run thinks he can pull off a massive training boost like Freeza did for a SSGSS vs Uub fight.

Besides, if we take BoG/FnF/Super into account, base Goku being so weak makes no sense, unless if you assume that he got weaker after BoG for some reason.

For the movie continuity I do think that, yes. I've already said why.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Listen. If you want to just declare that BOG/FNF and EOZ happened in different universes, fine. But you and I both know that the tiresome "he was holding back" explanation everyone always uses doesn't make a lick of sense in this context.

BoG/FnF are canon for me, so I take them into account. But I don't agree with you that it is impossible for Goku to be holding back.

He expected him to be as strong as Pure Buu. Because he wanted to fight Pure Buu again. You're doing mental gymnastics to assert that he expected him to, for no reason, be ludicrously above Pure Buu and close to his oddly specific god base level. When you and I know both know that this makes absolutely no sense.

He never said directly that he expected him to be as strong as Pure Boo. With Pure Boo been reincarnated into an Earthling martial artist instead of a mindless monster, there is the possibility that Oob would have surpassed Boo, which is why I believe he expected the possibility of losing.

He was confident he could beat him if left to charge an attack while Vegeta distracted him, not in a regular fight.

He was still strong enough to fight him evenly, and this is 10 years filled with intense training. With or without BoG/FnF/Super, we don't have enough information to tell how strong Goku & Oob are. We don't know how strong Goku is, with or without BoG/FnF/Super, and we don't know how strong Goku expected Oob to be, or how strong Oob really was.

For the movie continuity I do think that, yes. I've already said why.

Well, I can't agree with that.

[Khin]

When I saw Vados carrying those planet sides super dragon balls, all I was thinking:

While i agree that Vados feat is quite impressive.Pre-crisis Supes is still OP as hell,the guy can toss around planets like a pingpong ball and can movie at infinite speed.

[supercat]

Hey wait, I just realized something. This applies even just considering faff and ignoring Super:

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected."

That epilogue with Uub still happened. And now base Goku is ridiculously strong all the time. Yet in the epilogue he was clearly at a disadvantage vs Uub, who he says is as strong as Pure Buu. So that gives us a concrete position on how strong base Goku now is: slightly weaker than his SS3 Buu arc self. That goes along well with stuff like him being a tree to Beerus's tower, an exhausted Freeza who can't hurt SSGSS Goku scoffing at the idea that base Vegeta can do anything to him, and Beerus almost killing base Goku with a sneeze.

By extension this would mean non-Golden Freeza isn't all that strong. He was getting his ass kicked by base Goku in his true form, and his three suppression forms are weaker than that. I stand by what I said about his 1st form being weaker than Cell.

When I first read this post, I wasn't sure whether or not you were serious; but judging by the posts that followed, I'm inclined to believe that you were.

First and foremost, how can you say with such certainty that EoZ is tied into the same continuity?

Also, is Tagoma's emphasis on trumping the team's top fighter not enough for you to believe that Base Gohan > Piccolo, who going by powerscaling should more or less hold a power akin to a Cell Junior's if not substantially higher?

Based on that alone and the fact that Gohan was unable to leverage his full power without the usage of SSJ, I firmly believe that his base form is at least on par with his MSSJ-self during the Cell Games, while going Super Saiyan puts him in the same league as his Ultimate incarnation.

As for Tagoma and Ginyu, it seems reasonable enough for me to place the former a notch above or below a Super Perfect Cell-busting SSJ2 Gohan, and the latter more or less a tier above some of the weaker Buu's. These placements in turn would place First Form Frieza leagues above Ultimate Gohan, and likely much closer to Buutenks / Buuhan-tier.

Personally, I have no reason whatsoever to believe that Kid Buu or any Buu for that matter would still be deemed a daunting force. Heck, if Piccolo really is able to contend with Ultimate Gohan in a sparring match, then even he'd be in a place where he could casually trounce the childish menace.

So in short, I have the following:

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = MSSJ Gohan Cell Games but could even be closer to Super Perfect Cell
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Cell Jr. or a few notches higher
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = Ultimate Gohan but could be a notch below due to a lack of training
Tagoma = Super Perfect Cell - SSJ2 Gohan
Ginyu = Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta) - Kid Buu
First Form Frieza (FnF / Super) = Buutenks - Buuhan
Final Form Frieza (FnF / Super) = Leagues above SSJ Vegetto (against Buuhan), and likely several notches above hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).

Alright people let's see some responses pertaining to this discussion; I'm interested in seeing how you all feel about those power placements.

[Helios518]

Hey wait, I just realized something. This applies even just considering faff and ignoring Super:

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected."

That epilogue with Uub still happened. And now base Goku is ridiculously strong all the time. Yet in the epilogue he was clearly at a disadvantage vs Uub, who he says is as strong as Pure Buu. So that gives us a concrete position on how strong base Goku now is: slightly weaker than his SS3 Buu arc self. That goes along well with stuff like him being a tree to Beerus's tower, an exhausted Freeza who can't hurt SSGSS Goku scoffing at the idea that base Vegeta can do anything to him, and Beerus almost killing base Goku with a sneeze.

By extension this would mean non-Golden Freeza isn't all that strong. He was getting his ass kicked by base Goku in his true form, and his three suppression forms are weaker than that. I stand by what I said about his 1st form being weaker than Cell.

So in short, I have the following:

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = MSSJ Gohan Cell Games but could even be closer to Super Perfect Cell
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Cell Jr. or a few notches higher
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = Ultimate Gohan but could be a notch below due to a lack of training
Tagoma = Super Perfect Cell - SSJ2 Gohan
Ginyu = Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta) - Kid Buu
First Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Buutenks - Buuhan
Final Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Leagues above SSJ Vegetto (against Buuhan), and likely several notches above hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).

Alright people let's see some responses pertaining to this discussion; I'm interested in seeing how you all feel about those power placements.

This is very close to what I have. The only differences I have is
SSJ Gohan (FnF/Super) = half - three quarters of Ultimate Gohan
4th form Frieza = couple of times stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto/Gogeta (BoG arc)

Also this has been messing with me since the announcement of Golden Frieza but why do you (also parts of the community) still call 4th form Frieza his final form?

[Saiyan007]

When I saw Vados carrying those planet sides super dragon balls, all I was thinking:

You're not the only one. Do we know the size of those planets (I'm just curious)?

According to the super manga each ball has a diameter of about 37,196.2204 kilometers (which means they are almost 3x larger than Earth).

But the impressive thing is that she's moving them at FTL speeds

[ZombieVito]

So in short, I have the following:

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = MSSJ Gohan Cell Games but could even be closer to Super Perfect Cell
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Cell Jr. or a few notches higher
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = Ultimate Gohan but could be a notch below due to a lack of training
Tagoma = Super Perfect Cell - SSJ2 Gohan
Ginyu = Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta) - Kid Buu
First Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Buutenks - Buuhan
Final Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Leagues above SSJ Vegetto (against Buuhan), and likely several notches above hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).

Alright people let's see some responses pertaining to this discussion; I'm interested in seeing how you all feel about those power placements.

Here's mine:

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = Stronger than Perfect Cell.
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Stronger than East Kaioshin.
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = Ultimate Gohan.
Tagoma = Base Gohan (FnF / Super).
Ginyu = Stronger than Pure Buu.
First Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Weaker than Buutenks.
Final Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Stronger than SSJ2 Vegetto.

[Khin]

Mine would be :

Base Gohan (Super) = About 100x weaker than his Ultimate state.
Piccolo (Super) = A good chunk stronger than Cell Junior.
SSJ Gohan (Super) = 50x stronger than base.Only below to Super Boo.
Enraged SSj Gohan (Super) = 2x stronger than SSj.As strong as Ultimate Gohan.
Tagoma = Base Gohan
Ginyu = Twice as strong as Tagoma,only below to Super Perfect Cell.
First Form Freeza (Super) = Boohan
Final Form Freeza (Super) = Too high to even be compared to Boo Saga top tiers.

[Bullza]

Arent you guys overestimating Tagoma?

Gohan said "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime".

And according to Herms "It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc."

So it's Ginyu Tagoma who should be equal to base Gohan.

I'd put him at Perfect Cell level, perhaps Super Perfect Cell level at best.

[Khin]

Arent you guys overestimating Tagoma?

Gohan said "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime".

And according to Herms "It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc."

So it's Ginyu Tagoma who should be equal to base Gohan.

I'd put him at Perfect Cell level, perhaps Super Perfect Cell level at best.

Base Gohan got wrecked completely by Ginyu and was dissapointed by his power.Which forced Gohan to turn SSj.

[ZombieVito]

Arent you guys overestimating Tagoma?

Gohan said "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime".

And according to Herms "It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc."

So it's Ginyu Tagoma who should be equal to base Gohan.

I'd put him at Perfect Cell level, perhaps Super Perfect Cell level at best.

Problem is base Gohan was called an extreme disappointment and got beat very easily by Ginyu. Hell he even said he couldn't believe Gohan was trying to fight him with that low of a power level and then he was amazed on how much power Gohan was hiding when he turned Super Saiyan.

P.S. How the hell is he wounded or tired when he said that? He ate a Senzu a moment before.

[supercat]

Helios518, being a fan of the franchise for well over a decade tends to leave lingering tendencies. Yeah I definitely agree with you on Final Form (4th Form) Frieza flaunting SSJ3 Vegetto-busting power. As for SSJ Gohan, I primarily felt that he was on par with his Ultimate incarnation due to that whole thing about his base form's inability to go all out; meaning, going SSJ was the only way to unleash the full extent (Buu arc Ultimate) of his strength.

Zombie, how powerful do you have East Kaioshin? I've always speculated that he could at least tangle with MSSJ Goku (against Perfect Cell). Also, what inspires you to place Frieza below Buutenks? Nonchalantly toying with an Ultimate Gohan-tier SSJ should at the very least put him at or above Buutenks in my opinion. From an out-of-universe standpoint, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was above all tiers of villainous power dished out in the Buu-arc; given the series' track record of starting the new villain off stronger than any incarnation of the previous one, I'd say it's perfectly plausible to believe that First Form Frieza was at least a notch above Buuhan. As for SSJ2 Vegetto, which arc were you referring to? I honestly doubt anything short of FnF Vegetto would even last a second against Final Form (4th form) Frieza; meaning, SSJ3 Vegetto (BoG) and all incarnations below him would get one-shotted.

SSJ3 Vegeta, so how powerful is 100x weaker than Ultimate? Despite our placements for Tagoma / Ginyu being pretty far apart, I definitely agree with you on Frieza.

[ZombieVito]

I have Kaioshin stronger than the Cell that fought Goku.

Freeza doesn't need to be that far ahead of Gohan in his first form. He defeated Gohan easily because he got him off guard and damaged him with his death beam. Besides I have Freeza very close to Buutenks (200 vs 220).

I doesn't really matter what version of Vegetto we take into consideration since Goku and Vegeta don't improve much until after the god stuff. Also I always give SSJ3 Vegetto at least some credit and put him at 3-4 in the god scale. I have Freeza only at 1.2 in the god scale in his true form.

[Khin]

SSJ3 Vegeta, so how powerful is 100x weaker than Ultimate? Despite our placements for Tagoma / Ginyu being pretty far apart, I definitely agree with you on Freeza.

As strong as his MSSj Cell Games self.I forgot to add it.Though i'm planning to change my PL list and have him as strong as his MSSj CG self and also planning to change Ginyu to be 10x stronger than Tagoma so he could be around SSj3 Goku in terms of power.But i'm still unsure of it.

[Bullza]

Beerus said that the decrease in his power was insignificant after God disappeared. After God disappeared, Goku was in base form. Beerus made no comment about SS playing any factor in this.

Oh I see what you mean but seeing as how in Super the same line was said without Goku first going back to base then he was likely referring to Super Saiyan. Whis implied that them turning into Super Saiyan would make them stronger, if SSJ = SSJG then base form must be a decent amount weaker.

Because Super Saiyan Blue is a form more powerful than Super Saiyan God. It also gives him back the godly ki as an extra.

But Super Saiyan Blue is just supposed to be someone with the power of a God going Super Saiyan. If Goku already is supposed to have the power of a God then if he just turned into an ordinary Super Saiyan then that should be the same.

Base = SSJG
SSJ = SSJB

Goku would have trained to become a SSJG on his own first before then realising it could be taken a step further with SSJB. What was the need to learn SSJG in the first place?

So, you believe that the Grade forms are stronger than Super Saiyan 2?

Of course not. SSJ2 > MSSJ > USSJ > ASSJ > SSJ.

Still, in those few seconds he could survive & block Beerus' hits, hurt Beerus with his punch, hold the Beerus' ki ball without getting killed by it, and in Super, destroy the huge ki ball that as a SS couldn't even push back with a single punch. He didn't even notice that SSG disappeared.

His base form was powered up tremendously no doubt but the movie made it apparent that he further powers up when he turns Super Saiyan as it always has done. In his base form he starts to get overwhelmed by the boulders crashing down around him and then he turns Super Saiyan to blow them away and smash through them effortlessly. He then puts up a much better fight as a Super Saiyan, he's then pushed out of Super Saiyan when pushed further and gets overwhelmed then finally powers up again by turning into a SSJG to stop it.

In Super he is barely involved in the fight. Base/SSJ/SSJG cant all be at the same level if Whis is saying they'd get stronger if they turned into a SSJ.

It doesn't appear to be thanks to the battle power of SSG, since he had that power as a Super Saiyan and he still failed to do it. It appears that he managed to stop it because he gave his all, not because he obtained greater battle power.

That he was even able to turn back into a SSJG is questionable itself as it never happened in Super, it never appeared in SSJG nor did they ever mention it again. It's like it should never have happened but then if Goku was training to become a SSJG on his own then maybe that's what he was trying to do. I never understood why he transformed back into SSJG to begin with really.

We've seen that fingers & tongues can do considerable damage, so when at full power, even this would count as a hit. Again, you can't prove that this hit was weaker than the hits that 70% Beerus was landing on Goku. And BTW, it was a tail attack on Goku, an actual hit. And they even barely survived a ki blast later.

But those were strikes meant to cause damage as well, Beerus wasn't attacking anyone he just moved his limb and caught them, he didn't attack them with his foot or his tail, he simply moved around. It makes no sense to say that it'd be stronger than when he were to actually throw a punch or a kick with the intent to cause damage. It's not like he gave them a proper kick to the face at 100% of his full power with the intent of hurting or killing someone, he just turned over.

[apex_pretador]

So in short, I have the following:

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = MSSJ Gohan Cell Games but could even be closer to Super Perfect Cell
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Cell Jr. or a few notches higher
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = Ultimate Gohan but could be a notch below due to a lack of training
Tagoma = Super Perfect Cell - SSJ2 Gohan
Ginyu = Majin Buu (against Majin Vegeta) - Kid Buu
First Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Buutenks - Buuhan
Final Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Leagues above SSJ Vegetto (against Buuhan), and likely several notches above hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Buu arc).

Alright people let's see some responses pertaining to this discussion; I'm interested in seeing how you all feel about those power placements.

My placements :

Base Gohan (FnF / Super) = Dabura full power / adult SS2 gohan
Piccolo (FnF / Super) = Perfect cell, or just below
SSJ Gohan (FnF / Super) = 50% Ultimate Gohan
Tagoma = SSJ2 goku or a bit above
Ginyu = around fat buu or a bit lower
First Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = Between Ultimate gohan and Buutenks
Final Form Freeza (FnF / Super) = 90% of base goku, wherever he is. Around 10x SS3 vegetto (BoG) at a bare minimum.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Oh I see what you mean but seeing as how in Super the same line was said without Goku first going back to base then he was likely referring to Super Saiyan.

It wasn't the same line. In BoG, it was said that after Goku returned to normal, his power had an insignificant decrease. In Super, it was said that Goku's power didn't decrease at all. Combine them together, and you get that base Goku is slightly weaker than SSG, while Super Saiyan Goku is exactly as strong as SSG.

But Super Saiyan Blue is just supposed to be someone with the power of a God going Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan Blue is a form beyond Super Saiyan God. SS Goku was already as strong as SSG before achieving SSB, but he didn't have godly ki. By becoming a SSB, he became stronger than SSG, and it also gave him again godly ki.

Of course not. SSJ2 > MSSJ > USSJ > ASSJ > SSJ.

So, you believe that the Grade forms give a smaller than x2 increase, right?

Base/SSJ/SSJG cant all be at the same level if Whis is saying they'd get stronger if they turned into a SSJ.

The thing is, it is only Whis' statement that creates the problem. Everything else points at base/SS/SSG being at around the same level. If we combine BoG & Super, base Goku has better feats than SS & SSG Goku, SS Goku has better feats than base & SSG Goku, and SSG Goku has better feats than base & SS Goku.

SSG Goku at full power could block & dodge 70% Beerus' hits, but couldn't land a hit. Base Goku could also block & dodge 70% Beerus' hits, and managed to land a hit with the help of Shunkan Ido. SS Goku fought more fiercely after getting angry, so he managed to give a better fight than he did in SSG/base. Beerus then fired the huge ki ball, which SS Goku couldn't push back. We learn that Goku hadn't noticed that he lost SSG or that he turned SS, and Beerus then revealed that after returning back to normal, he managed to absorb the power of SSG, which is why his power didn't decrease drastically. Goku reverted back in base, and he still couldn't push it back. Then he almost lost, but suddenly he got angry & gave his all, which turned him into a SSG, and managed to destroy the ki ball.

In Super, Goku didn't notice that he he reverted back to SS, and it was revealed that his power didn't decrease at all after going from SSG to SS. SS Goku couldn't push back the huge ki ball and reverted back in base, but after he got angry & gave his all, he punched the ki ball in base and destroyed it.

All these events show to me that base/SS/SSG are at around the same level. The only thing that creates a contradiction is Whis' statement in Episode 18, which leads me to believe that the script writer of the episode didn't understand that SS no longer gives a big boost.

I never understood why he transformed back into SSJG to begin with really.

I think it happened in order to show us that Goku can now transform into a SSG on his own, even though he doesn't need it anymore. In DBZ: Dokkan Battle, we see that Goku can turn into a SSG on his own, but it doesn't help him, which is when Whis tells him that he can become stronger if he train & achieve SSB.

But those were strikes meant to cause damage as well, Beerus wasn't attacking anyone he just moved his limb and caught them, he didn't attack them with his foot or his tail, he simply moved around. It makes no sense to say that it'd be stronger than when he were to actually throw a punch or a kick with the intent to cause damage. It's not like he gave them a proper kick to the face at 100% of his full power with the intent of hurting or killing someone, he just turned over.

What about that ki blast they survived?