Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Neon Z]

All these events show to me that base/SS/SSG are at around the same level. The only thing that creates a contradiction is Whis' statement in Episode 18, which leads me to believe that the script writer of the episode didn't understand that SS no longer gives a big boost.

That was clearly a reference to SSB. He was talking about them drawing forth a greater power than before, if they transformed into SSJ only after increasing their base power even more, which was obviously build up for the new transformation.

[Hugo Boss]

What about that ki blast they survived?

Isn't that ki blast the same kind of attack SSG Goku deflects with a blast of his own? It isn't even comparable to the one Beerus uses against Goku's kamehameha. Even so, Goku and Vegeta barely managed to survive that attack, the power behind it is able to kill them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Isn't that ki blast the same kind of attack SSG Goku deflects with a blast of his own? It isn't even comparable to the one Beerus uses against Goku's kamehameha.

It was the same technique, but unlike during the battle with SSG Goku, this was at full power.

[Hugo Boss]

The attack Beerus uses when he is asleep is an unconcious/not restrained move. It's still far from being a full-power attack, when one puts mind, effort, at long last, everything they get. Basically, he just doesn't hold back and even Goku points Beerus is as strong as ever (Goku doesn't know Beerus lied to him).

Not to mention the difference between Super Saiyan God and Beerus isn't as great as the difference between Goku & Vegeta and the Gods. According to Mr. Toriyama, Super Saiyan God is at least half as strong as Beerus. The Gods are like dozens of times stronger than Goku & Vegeta during their training, as Whis describes using the trees' height. It seems they only can catch up by transforming into Super Saiyans after they have already got stronger in their normal forms.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The attack Beerus uses when he is asleep is an unconcious/not restrained move. It's still far from being a full-power attack, when one puts mind, effort, at long last, everything they get. Basically, he just doesn't hold back and even Goku points Beerus is as strong as ever (Goku doesn't know Beerus lied to him).

That's not a fact.

The Gods are like dozens of times stronger than Goku & Vegeta during their training, as Whis describes using the trees' height.

That is assuming that Whis is comparing them literally with the trees. Base Goku's & Vegeta's feats place them at least close to SSG's power. Besides, why would they be called Saiyan's that have surpassed God if they are many times weaker than it?

[Hugo Boss]

I don't think terminology from games is supposed to be taken at face value, specially in this case that the word "surpass" is used out of context. It only makes sense if the "base" Saiyans are indeed stronger than Super Saiyan God, not equal or close. Remember when Super Saiyan 2 was described as the level that surpass Super Saiyan? That's how it makes sense.

Furthermore, the feats that you keep adressing are likely miracles or plot devices to make Goku and Vegeta advance in the story. They aren't enough of an evidence, because, ignoring post material only enforcing it, Whis directly contradicts the idea that Goku & Vegeta are anywhere near the level of Gods. We don't need to look beyond that scene, it's everything well explained there (the trees having completely different heights and the importance of not using Super Saiyan in the training).

Finally, if you are not satisfied with Whis' metaphor, you have the blue-haired Super Saiyan's stuff that brings back the realm of Super Saiyan God into question. After witnessing the new form, everyone commented on how Goku and Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan God's level without the help of their friends. Their normal forms aren't worth the same compliment.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't think terminology from games is supposed to be taken at face value, specially in this case that the word "surpass" is used out of context. It only makes sense if the "base" Saiyans are indeed stronger than Super Saiyan God, not equal or close. Remember when Super Saiyan 2 was described as the level that surpass Super Saiyan? That's how it makes sense.

Which would mean that base Goku during Resurrection "F" has surpassed Super Saiyan God Goku from Battle of Gods. Which isn't actually contradicted by anything. Even Beerus states in the movie that after Goku returned from SSG back to normal, his power didn't decrease significantly, so it would make sense for base Goku to have surpassed that level after months of training.

Furthermore, the feats that you keep adressing are likely miracles or plot devices to make Goku and Vegeta advance in the story. They aren't enough of an evidence, because, ignoring post material only enforcing it, Whis directly contradicts the idea that Goku & Vegeta are anywhere near the level of Gods. We don't need to look beyond that scene, it's everything well explained there (the trees having completely different heights and the importance of not using Super Saiyan in the training).

You can't ignore feats by calling them "miracles or plot devices". These things happened, which means that either Whis' statement is a plot hole, or Whis isn't talking literally when comparing Goku & Vegeta with himself & Beerus.

Goku could fight with Beerus in the movie better than he did as a Super Saiyan God at full power, and destroy in Super the huge ki ball made from SS Goku's full power Kamehameha & 70% Beerus' ki blast with a punch when as a Super Saiyan, who was as strong as a Super Saiyan God, he couldn't even push it back. Then Goku & Vegeta could survive unrestrained hits & ki blasts from Beerus in Super. The FnF promotional manga implies that base Goku is at SSG level, and DBH states that Goku has surpassed SSG in base. I can't even comprehend how all these show that base Goku is many times weaker than Super Saiyan God.

Finally, if you are not satisfied with Whis' metaphor, you have the blue-haired Super Saiyan's stuff that brings back the realm of Super Saiyan God into question. After witnessing the new form, everyone commented on how Goku and Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan God's level without the help of their friends. Their normal forms aren't worth the same compliment.

Except they were talking about the God ki that Goku had again as a SSB, which he didn't have in base or SS before.

[Hugo Boss]

Can we just ignore movie or game stuff? It's irrelevant for this thread.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Whis' explanation. It's the most important bit of dialogue if you want to understand what Goku and Vegeta are looking for. He explains why they shouldn't use Super Saiyan. He talks about the level of Gods (don't forget Super Saiyan God is one of them). He talks about a realm which lays further for them. They learn how to control their ki properly and become beings with the power of Super Saiyan God as Super Saiyans. The quality of their ki is a detail, but the focus is their strength. You have a whole big context suggesting this, dialogues and fights, so everything Whis said works.

If I would portray something as "plot hole", it would be those miraculous feats. But I prefer to see those instances as not serious events. Even Oracle Fish doubted they would manage to survive Whis' training any further without using Super Saiyan. Its absence serves to build up what comes next. We know for a fact Super Saiyan is a form stronger than the regular form, but imagine if Goku didn't punch through the fire ball, we wouldn't have a continuation for the story.

[supercat]

Zombie, I agree, Kaioshin being a top-tier Cell Games contender (excluding SSJ2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell) definitely makes a lot of sense when you factor in the amount of fear he was able to instill into Piccolo. One could argue that the Namekian merely forfeited the match as a gesture of respect, but why would he do so at the expense of his composure?

As for First Form Frieza, I think anywhere between a few notches above Kid Buu to a tier or two above Buuhan is reasonable. Considering how the former was the final villain, anything above him would certainly make sense. I personally have the hover-chair-riding, Gohan-busting, new and improved tyrant in the same league as Buutenks / Buuhan, as I feel the gap he has over Kid Buu should be pretty significant. I feel he could have pummeled SSJ Gohan to the ground without batting an eye even if he had refrained from utilizing his Death Beam.

In a nutshell, I have the following for Frieza's transformations:

First Form Frieza = Buutenks - Buuhan
Second Form Frieza = 1.5 - 2x Buuhan
Third Form Frieza = A few notches above SSJ Vegetto
Fourth Form Frieza = All forms of Vegetto (including SSJ3) prior to FnF are one-shot material
Golden Frieza = 80-85% of Beerus

I'm not sure if any form of Vegetto prior to FnF would stand a chance against Final Form (4th Form) Frieza, as Goku was completely awe-struck when he saw Frieza transform. Not to mention, he apparently took a nasty beating. I doubt he would even flinch at the sight of SSJ3 Vegetto at this point, let alone take the amount of damage that he did.

SSJ3 Vegeta, the highest I personally place Ginyu is more or less around the same caliber as Kid Buu, so yes, SSJ3-tier could very well be a possibility. As for Tagoma, I'm more inclined to have him closer to Super Perfect Cell and SSJ2 Gohan, which would likely boil down to him being 2 - 2.5x stronger than MSSJ Gohan. That said, I do feel that Base Gohan was slightly superior to his younger MSSJ incarnation. Personally, I could see him treading anywhere between his MSSJ-self to his Adult SSJ2-self; the latter would make a lot of sense, as this would mean he's only a few tiers short of Tagoma.

apex_predator, your list looks good; the difference merely resides in our placements for SSJ Gohan and Ginyu.

I think the simplest way to assess power levels at this point is to compare characters to previously established levels, so if any of you have anything to add feel free to reply. Also, looking forward to seeing where you all place each of Frieza's hypothetical transformations.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Can we just ignore movie or game stuff? It's irrelevant for this thread.

I disagree. I don't see any reason to ignore them, they are all related.

It's the most important bit of dialogue if you want to understand what Goku and Vegeta are looking for. He explains why they shouldn't use Super Saiyan.

I understand this. Whis is correct about Goku & Vegeta not using transformations. That's why he doesn't allow them later to use SSB, or why Goku & Vegeta didn't use SS2/3 in their training before, and why they rarely used SS in their training before. The contradiction is that regular Super Saiyan no longer gives a big boost.

He talks about the level of Gods (don't forget Super Saiyan God is one of them)

Is it? If we take all gods into account, we start from Dende. Goku was already at SSG level with his SS form, which leads me to believe that the level of Gods that Whis is talking about is the level of Champa, Beerus, Whis, and Vados, which is the gods that Goku & Vegeta have yet to reach.

If I would portray something as "plot hole", it would be those miraculous feats.

So in the end of the day, we have to choose a side. We have many arrows pointing from multiple sources at Base/SS/SSG being at the same level, and we have a single arrow from Toei pointing at SS giving a big boost.

I'll go with the many arrows.

imagine if Goku didn't punch through the fire ball, we wouldn't have a continuation for the story.

It doesn't work like that. You can't have Gohan surpassing Cell with the power of magic just so we can have a continuation for the story. There has to be a plot device behind it, which in that case was Super Saiyan 2. Likewise, Goku didn't obtain the power of magic and punched the ki blast. It showed us that Goku has the power of Super Saiyan God even in his base form. Which goes along with almost everything else.

[Hugo Boss]

DBZGTKOSDH, are you really interested in discussing Dragon Ball Super? I don't mind if you bring movies or Dragon Heroes or old powerscales and such, but this is simply not the place to discuss them. Since you like using movies, I guess Battle of Gods does ring a bell to you, no? Dragon Ball Super has its own context and continuity, it doesn't have to follow outsider sources. Whatever "arrows" you have favorable to your opinion must have higher ground than what the core characters are suggesting in this tv anime. Everyone knows Super Saiyan is stronger than regular Saiyan form, this is mentioned before and after that miraculous event, and for some reason the big context is it should be possible for regular Goku to do something that Super Saiyan Goku can't? How that makes sense? You have the blue-haired Super Saiyan Vegeta describing himself as a being that surpass Super Saiyan! He doesn't even mention surpassing Super Saiyan God. If you will even use Dende or Kaioshins as excuses to exclude Super Saiyan God from the Gods whom Whis was talking about, we shouldn't take this discussion seriously.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

DBZGTKOSDH, are you really interested in discussing Dragon Ball Super? I don't mind if you bring movies or Dragon Heroes or old powerscales and such, but this is simply not the place to discuss them.

I'm not randomly just discussing about movies/video-games, I'm discussing movies/video-games in relation to Super. This isn't off-topic.

Since you like using movies, I guess Battle of Gods does ring a bell to you, no? Dragon Ball Super has its own context and continuity, it doesn't have to follow outsider sources.

Except that the movies are the source material for Super, and the Champa arc is written as a continuation of both movies & the Super movie arcs, so they are not completely irrelevant.

Whatever "arrows" you have favorable to your opinion must have higher ground than what the core characters are suggesting in this tv anime.

The movies are written by Toriyama, so they are above Toei's TV anime. And in Toriyama's movie, we have Beerus, a core character, saying that Goku's power didn't drop much after he went from SSG back to normal.

Everyone knows Super Saiyan is stronger than regular Saiyan form, this is mentioned before and after that miraculous event

The only time that regular Super Saiyan with the power of SSG was stated to give a boost was during the discussion between Whis & Oracle Fish.

and for some reason the big context is it should be possible for regular Goku to do something that Super Saiyan Goku can't? How that makes sense?

The fact that base Goku did something that SS Goku couldn't do means either that base Goku is stronger, or base Goku is really close to SS Goku, and he managed to do it because he got angry. We know for a fact that base Goku isn't stronger, so it's the second.

You have the blue-haired Super Saiyan Vegeta describing himself as a being that surpass Super Saiyan! He doesn't even mention surpassing Super Saiyan God.

And the narrator says that Super Saiyan Blue is a form beyond Super Saiyan God, in both anime & manga.

If you will even use Dende or Kaioshins as excuses to exclude Super Saiyan God from the Gods whom Whis was talking about, we shouldn't take this discussion seriously.

And why would Whis include SSG when Goku & Vegeta are already in that level as Super Saiyans?

[emperior]

Here are my Super power levels.


Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 250
SSJ - 12,500
SSJ2 - 25,000
SSJ3 - 50,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 240
SSJ - 12,000
SSJ2 - 24,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 1% - 100,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

Revival of Freezer Arc

Spoiler:

Goku with God Ki
Base - 140,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta with God Ki
Base - 142,000
SSB - 7,100,000

Freezer
1st Form - 15,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 250
SSJ - 12,500

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 10,000

[Darkron2151]

Here are my Super power levels.


Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 250
SSJ - 12,500
SSJ2 - 25,000
SSJ3 - 50,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 240
SSJ - 12,000
SSJ2 - 24,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 1% - 100,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

Revival of Freezer Arc

Spoiler:

Goku with God Ki
Base - 140,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta with God Ki
Base - 142,000
SSB - 7,100,000

Freezer
1st Form - 15,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 10,000
Possessed by Ginyu - 9,000

I like it. The only things I have a problem with are Freeza's 4th form being stronger than Base Goku & Vegeta (which is quite the opposite) and Tagoma actually losing power due to Ginyu in your list rather than gaining. Also, SSJ Gohan should be WAAAAY stronger than Ginyu Tagoma, as the former beat the latter in 2 blows with no effort.

[emperior]

Here are my Super power levels.


Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 250
SSJ - 12,500
SSJ2 - 25,000
SSJ3 - 50,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 240
SSJ - 12,000
SSJ2 - 24,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 1% - 100,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

Revival of Freezer Arc

Spoiler:

Goku with God Ki
Base - 140,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta with God Ki
Base - 142,000
SSB - 7,100,000

Freezer
1st Form - 15,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 10,000
Possessed by Ginyu - 9,000

I like it. The only things I have a problem with are Freeza's 4th form being stronger than Base Goku & Vegeta (which is quite the opposite) and Tagoma actually losing power due to Ginyu in your list rather than gaining. Also, SSJ Gohan should be WAAAAY stronger than Ginyu Tagoma, as the former beat the latter in 2 blows with no effort.

Thanks for the feedback. I forgot Gohan overpowered Tagoma that much, but I don't remember if Ginyu got stronger than Tagoma was while in his body.
About 4th form Freezer, he just warmed up against Goku so there's no indicator of his power, I decided to go with 150,000 to make his Golden Form the equivalent of Super Saiyan.

EDIT: Edited my power levels list. Decided to take out Ginyu Tagoma as I can't bother watching the episodes again so I will assume he had no drawback in his new body. Also upped Gohan to 12,500 as a SSJ so he overpowers Tagoma by 2500 but gets overpowered by 2500 by 1st form Freezer. A difference of 2500 should be enough to completely dominate an opponent

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not randomly just discussing about movies/video-games, I'm discussing movies/video-games in relation to Super. This isn't off-topic.

Once you declare your position is based on the source materials for tv anime, you are being kinda off-topic. It's like discussing a fact from a movie using a fact from the book which serves as its base. It's not the same thing, the content in question is Dragon Ball Super. Here Goku went from SSG to SS, he didn't pass through his regular form like in the movie, and even there Beerus talks about Goku's ability when he was a Super Saiyan.

The only time that regular Super Saiyan with the power of SSG was stated to give a boost was during the discussion between Whis & Oracle Fish.

Whis and Oracle Fish were talking about SS (the golden one). SS with the power of SSG (the blue) is first mentioned when Goku fought Freeza. You can notice how big the boost is just by looking at how easily Goku defends himself against Freeza's test attack. They were pratically even before Goku transforms.

The fact that base Goku did something that SS Goku couldn't do means either that base Goku is stronger, or...

If you want to take that scene at face value, the best accomplishment comes from the strongest mode. In short, it would mean regular Goku is stronger than SS Goku and stronger than Super Saiyan God.

And the narrator says that Super Saiyan Blue is a form beyond Super Saiyan God, in both anime & manga.

The manga just serves to promote the tv anime, but if the narrator says something along those lines I concede.

And why would Whis include SSG when Goku & Vegeta are already in that level as Super Saiyans?

Because they should only have the power of Super Saiyan God when they fight Freeza as Super Saiyans. Freeza himself was surprised by the fact he was about to fight a god. Also, Beerus Arc depicts gods as beings that should never fight each other, so the universe doesn't collapse. Kaioshins, let alone Dende, aren't worth as a threat to universe when they fight among themselves like Goku and Beerus are.

In another hand, I admit the bit where Goku keeps the power of Super Saiyan God while he fights as a Super Saiyan against Beerus is.. weird. It kills the explanation Goku gives to Freeza and his improvements under Whis' tutelage. It suggests Goku lost most of Super Saiyan God's power after losing the Battle of Gods.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Once you declare your position is based on the source materials for tv anime, you are being kinda off-topic. It's like discussing a fact from a movie using a fact from the book which serves as its base. It's not the same thing, the content in question is Dragon Ball Super. Here Goku went from SSG to SS, he didn't pass through his regular form like in the movie, and even there Beerus talks about Goku's ability when he was a Super Saiyan.

Even if the details are different, the general story of the 2 movies/arcs is the same & with the same outcome, and they are both continued with the Hakaishin Champa arc. The BoG/FnF arcs didn't come to replace the movies, just like the DB/Z anime didn't come to replace the manga. You can't have base Goku in the end of FnF at SSG level, and base Goku at the end of FnF arc of Super many times weaker than SSG. They have to be at the same level, because they are both followed by the same new story.

Whis and Oracle Fish were talking about SS (the golden one). SS with the power of SSG (the blue) is first mentioned when Goku fought Freeza. You can notice how big the boost is just by looking at how easily Goku defends himself against Freeza's test attack. They were pratically even before Goku transforms.

I was talking about the golden one. Everything except Whis' conversation in Episode 18 shows that golden Super Saiyan no longer gives a significant boost.

If you want to take that scene at face value, the best accomplishment comes from the strongest mode. In short, it would mean regular Goku is stronger than SS Goku and stronger than Super Saiyan God.

The psychology that a fighter has plays a big role as well, it's not just power. Regular Goku was more aggressive than he was as a Super Saiyan, which is why he could destroy the ki ball. Super Saiyan Goku in BoG was more aggressive than he was in his regular & Super Saiyan God forms, which is why he fought better. In the finale of BoG, Super Saiyan God Goku was more aggressive than he was in his regular & Super Saiyan forms, which is why he could destroy the ki ball.

The manga just serves to promote the tv anime

The manga was never said to be a promo of the anime, it was said to be a comicalization of Toriyama's story draft.

Because they should only have the power of Super Saiyan God when they fight Freeza as Super Saiyans.

But that's not the case. He doesn't have godly ki in his base & SS forms, but he still has the power of Super Saiyan God even if he is no longer a true god. Super Saiyan Blue brings forth even more power, and makes him a God again, with godly ki.

From both the BoG movie & the BoG arc, we see that base/SS/SSG are at around the same level. Beerus states that base is slightly weaker than God (in the movie), and that Super Saiyan is as strong as God (in Super). In both versions, base & Super Saiyan Goku has feats comparable to Super Saiyan God, and in the movie Goku goes from SSG to base to SS, and he doesn't notice a thing, like he didn't notice in Super that he went from SSG to SS because his power didn't change. And even though Goku becomes a SSG on his own in the movie, Toriyama explains that he no longer needs to do it. The FnF manga shows that base Goku has the power of SSG. DBZ: Dokkan Battle explains that turning into SSG doesn't help Goku, and for him to become stronger, he would have to train & achieve SSB. Dragon Ball Heroes describes base Goku from FnF as a Saiyan that has surpassed God. Even in the movie, anime, and video games, SSB is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, not as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

The regular form is slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God (but no godly ki), the Super Saiyan form is as strong as Super Saiyan God (but no godly ki either), and the Super Saiyan Blue form is stronger than Super Saiyan God (and brings back godly ki). That's what everything shows, except for Super Episode 18, which implies that Super Saiyan gives a big boost to base.

[Hugo Boss]

I'm not suggesting the facts from Dragon Ball Super replace other facts. For some reason, you decided to mix all that stuff in this thread, it's very confusing.

For what is relevant,...

The psychology that a fighter has plays a big role as well, it's not just power. Regular Goku was more aggressive than he was as a Super Saiyan, which is why he could destroy the ki ball.

Finally you applied some logic into this. But this doesn't mean the psychological state of Goku in his normal form will always make him surpass his stronger forms. That was an atypical situation. As we can infer from the dialogue between Whis and Oracle Fish, the Saiyans' power is still much lower than the level of gods (Super Saiyan God included). After all, the Battle of Gods was between Super Saiyan God and Beerus. Beerus himself states that if Goku and Vegeta don't become stronger fast, they won't be able to be good playmates for him. And he is the same person that acknowledges Super Saiyan God as a good opponent.

Even in the movie, anime, and video games, SSB is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, not as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

I checked the fact thread and I think you didn't get this right. EmmaWinters and Herms have shared their notes, and it seems Goku transforms into what he describes as a Super Saiyan, but with the power of Super Saiyan God. It's not the normal form that has the power of Super Saiyan God, it's the Super Saiyan form. All the quotes in regards to Super Saiyan God are related to the blue-haired Super Saiyan.

[Neon Z]

I checked the fact thread and I think you didn't get this right. EmmaWinters and Herms have shared their notes, and it seems Goku transforms into what he describes as a Super Saiyan, but with the power of Super Saiyan God. It's not the normal form that has the power of Super Saiyan God, it's the Super Saiyan form. All the quotes in regards to Super Saiyan God are related to the blue-haired Super Saiyan.

The actual quote in the thread is...
This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan.

which could easily mean "This is a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" "as a Super Saiyan" (so, this is the Super Saiyan of a Saiyan who achieved the power of Super Saiyan God) rather than "this is a Saiyan with the power of" "Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan" (This is a Super Saiyan form with the same power as a Super Saiyan God).

The later clashes with all the other statements about the blue form surpassing Super Saiyan God, while the first works just fine with them.

[GodVegetto91]

I'm not suggesting the facts from Dragon Ball Super replace other facts. For some reason, you decided to mix all that stuff in this thread, it's very confusing.

For what is relevant,...

The psychology that a fighter has plays a big role as well, it's not just power. Regular Goku was more aggressive than he was as a Super Saiyan, which is why he could destroy the ki ball.

Finally you applied some logic into this. But this doesn't mean the psychological state of Goku in his normal form will always make him surpass his stronger forms. That was an atypical situation. As we can infer from the dialogue between Whis and Oracle Fish, the Saiyans' power is still much lower than the level of gods (Super Saiyan God included). After all, the Battle of Gods was between Super Saiyan God and Beerus. Beerus himself states that if Goku and Vegeta don't become stronger fast, they won't be able to be good playmates for him. And he is the same person that acknowledges Super Saiyan God as a good opponent.

Even in the movie, anime, and video games, SSB is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, not as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.

I checked the fact thread and I think you didn't get this right. EmmaWinters and Herms have shared their notes, and it seems Goku transforms into what he describes as a Super Saiyan, but with the power of Super Saiyan God. It's not the normal form that has the power of Super Saiyan God, it's the Super Saiyan form. All the quotes in regards to Super Saiyan God are related to the blue-haired Super Saiyan.

Them saying the SSGSS form is a Super Saiyan form with the power of a Super Saiyan God. Doesn't mean it's exactly as strong as SSG.. Because we already know that SSGSS has been stated several times to surpass Super Saiyan God. So there's no question about that.
What they are most likely refering to in the series.. Is that it has the same "Power Source" as SSG. (Obviously Refering to Godly Ki here)
They both run on the same type of energy.