GT 1st arc

[Kuririn Fan]

Would you agree that episodes 1-40 are part of one arc in GT? People tend to separate it in Black Star DB Arc and Baby Arc, but they collect the dbs before and after Baby appeared and the whole deal with them is solved with episode 40. And then Super 17 is shortest arc ever with 7 episodes and it leads into final Evil Dragons Arc, like Saiyan leads into Freeza.

[Vijay]

I agree. Just like Saiyan Arc culminating into Frieza Arc, GT's Black Star DB Arc builds-up towards Baby Arc (despite part of me feeling the entire Baby concept was TOEI's last minute asspull to revive their sagging ratings) & how its resolved with Piccolo's death.

And it opens a fresh chaptet with minna at Bulma's party. Quite honestly, wouldnt have minded if GT ended right there. The high-end point would've masked its glarings flaws to great extent imo

[Kuririn Fan]

I agree. Just like Saiyan Arc culminating into Freeza Arc, GT's Black Star DB Arc builds-up towards Baby Arc (despite part of me feeling the entire Baby concept was TOEI's last minute asspull to revive their sagging ratings) & how its resolved with Piccolo's death.

And it opens a fresh chaptet with minna at Bulma's party. Quite honestly, wouldnt have minded if GT ended right there. The high-end point would've masked its glarings flaws to great extent imo

Definitely, GT would be much more bearable if it ended after those 40 episodes, it would be easier to accept it into "canon" or just like a simple little side-story. Super 17 created a lot of problems. Also, i heard it was supposed to end with ep 40, but for some reason Toei continued.

[Draconic]

I also view them as one arc, as at least half of the so called Black Star Dragon Ball Arc is dealing with Machine Mutants, Dr Myuu and his minions, which I view as the catalyst for the Baby Saga. At best, I would put the BSDB arc from episode 1 till the episode with Zoonama, but once the Para Brothers come into play, the Baby arc begins. I mean, it's not that much different for what in DBZ you would call the Cell Arc, though 1/3rd of it is focused on the Androids, or the Buu arc, even though again, a good chunk of it deals with other stuff, like the World Tournament, Babidi's minions and the whole Majin Vegeta thing.

Also, I think there is an argument to be made that even the Super 17 arc shouldn't be viewed as a stand-alone one, since it leads directly into the Shadow Dragons arc and the negative energy accumulated in the Dragon Balls is also implied to be what makes all hell to break loose, literally. And this is how I like to see GT: The Baby arc and the Shadow Dragons arc and if you judge it like that I guess the quality of the show does rank up a bit. It doesn't make most of the early and middle episodes any less boring, but at least they lead to some cool pay off.

But again, I also divide most of the Dragon Ball arcs differently too. I see the First Hunt for the Dragon Balls and the 21st Tenkaici Budokai as one story, culminating in Goku going to adventure on his own, the Red Ribbon Army arc is pretty much the same (includes the Uranai Baba Tournament), then I also view the 22nd TB, Piccolo Daimao and 23rd arcs as one big story (the 22nd TB leads straight into the Piccolo arc, which is 100% resolved at the end of the 23rd TB and this whole part of the series shows Goku maturing, from learning to deal with pain, anger and personal loss, to learning humility and culminating in his defining character trait for the rest of the series: letting bad guys live so he could fight them again).

The DBZ arcs are divded perfectly though (Saiyan, Frieza, Cell, Buu).

[Kuririn Fan]

The thing about those OG Dragon Ball Arcs is that they stand on their own, they have clear beginnings, middles and endings, so going by that OGDB has 6 arcs. That is supported by the fact that Toriyama almost ended the story after the first one and he even had a little message "this is the end... just kidding", and all 3 tournaments are their own arcs, again with clear "start - middle - end". Super 17 is a weird one, but i guess its similar to 22nd TB - Piccolo Daimao, Saiyan - Freeza, Freeza - Cell (or Artificial Humans & Cell, however you wanna call it).

[Vijay]

TOEI must've got this new-found enlightment, which translates into motivation to continue GT "further" looking at Baby Arc's superior performance. No joke. It actually surpassed Majin Boo Arc's consistency at many points

It wasnt Super 17 Arc. I kinda liked that portion as it felt "fresh". The setting was Earth, which for a changr was different & unique compared to bland Tuffles Planet that SSJ4 Goku & Oozaru Baby tore apart

My prob was why dafuq TOEI messed-up Shadow Dragons Arc so miserably? They freakin truned DB into monster-of-the-week routine where Goku & Pan squash Pink Duck, Mole & Pig Shenrons...sigh...

[Kuririn Fan]

The last 3 "dragons" (they dont look like dragons lol) saved that arc. And ending was cool, i guess.

[DB1984]

I think GT's arc should be like this:

01-26 (Black Star Dragon Ball)
27-41 (Baby)
42-47 (Super Android 17)
48-64 (Seven Evil Dragons)

[Zenith]

Would you agree that episodes 1-40 are part of one arc in GT? People tend to separate it in Black Star DB Arc and Baby Arc, but they collect the dbs before and after Baby appeared and the whole deal with them is solved with episode 40. And then Super 17 is shortest arc ever with 7 episodes and it leads into final Evil Dragons Arc, like Saiyan leads into Freeza.

I sort-of agree. While in the grand scheme of things it comes across as one arc, I can see why many consider it not to be. Mainly because we don't even learn of Baby's existence until, what, episode 22? I can see it from both perspectives, I guess.

[Kuririn Fan]

That's the thing - they still collect Dragon Balls after Baby appeared and the deal with them finally ends with ep 40, it's all 1 arc.

[Kunzait_83]

Also, i heard it was supposed to end with ep 40, but for some reason Toei continued.

The reason was to promote the (unplayably horrendous) PS1 game Final Bout, which was at the time supposed to be (and very nearly was) the last ever Dragon Ball video game: also the first ever fully polygon-based DB game too.

Certainly a fairly shitty commercialized/corporate reason to drag out an anime, but it also weirdly gave us the whole Dark Dragons concept, which is easily probably the single best plot concept in all of GT: and like so many other of GT's excellent concepts, is generally handled not at all especially elegantly to put it mildly.

But yeah, by most accounts GT went on past the Baby arc due entirely to Final Bout's existence.

[Kuririn Fan]

Also, i heard it was supposed to end with ep 40, but for some reason Toei continued.

The reason was to promote the (unplayably horrendous) PS1 game Final Bout, which was at the time supposed to be (and very nearly was) the last ever Dragon Ball video game: also the first ever fully polygon-based DB game too.

Certainly a fairly shitty commercialized/corporate reason to drag out an anime, but it also weirdly gave us the whole Dark Dragons concept, which is easily probably the single best plot concept in all of GT: and like so many other of GT's excellent concepts, is generally handled not at all especially elegantly to put it mildly.

But yeah, by most accounts GT went on past the Baby arc due entirely to Final Bout's existence.

Yeah, i heard something like that, but it seemed too weird to be true. Also, thanks for replying to my shitty thread, i heard that you're one of the most respected users on this forum. I hear a lot of things, it seems.

[Ash57]

I really try to like GT, but i simply can't like Super Android No.17 arc. It's probably more inconsistent than Rosat Saga, and this DEFINITIVELY is something.

[LuckyCat]

Also, i heard it was supposed to end with ep 40, but for some reason Toei continued.

The reason was to promote the (unplayably horrendous) PS1 game Final Bout, which was at the time supposed to be (and very nearly was) the last ever Dragon Ball video game: also the first ever fully polygon-based DB game too.

I think this site has debunked that rumor. The rumor doesn't really make sense, either. Producing 2 more seasons of anime would absolutely cost more than whatever profit expectations there could be for a low profile PS game promotion.

[Cipher]

They're absolutely one arc. The first story line begins with the scattering of the Ultimate Dragon Balls, and ends with Goku's confrontation of Baby on the Tsufuru-jin planet (so it even keeps in step with the galactic tour theme until the end). The whole conspiracy around Baby also starts as early as episode ... what? Like, seven? Whenever the Para-Para Brothers first steal the Dragon Balls and lead them to the Luud Cult.

I know the first arc gets a lot of flack, but I credit it for resembling one of Toriyama's story lines in that you'd have to be an idiot-savant to effectively predict what its climax would look like anywhere before around 3/4ths of the way in.

[Kunzait_83]

I think this site has debunked that rumor. The rumor doesn't really make sense, either. Producing 2 more seasons of anime would absolutely cost more than whatever profit expectations there could be for a low profile PS game promotion.

I only very vaguely remember there being some contesting on the forums here about the whole "Final Bout's release extended GT" thing, but my memory of it was far from clear and I certainly don't remember whether or not this was conclusively "debunked" or not.

What I can definitively say for sure though was that Final Bout was FAR from a "low profile" game release. There was a very, very good degree of hype around the game leading up to its release, more than usual for most DB games back at that time (and some of them already got their fair share of buzz as it was). It was considered a big enough of a release that it was also the DB game that finally (after almost a decade of constant clamoring and demand from import-savvy gamers) broke the seal on getting a DB game an official U.S. release (discounting Dragon Power obviously).

Granted the game turned out to be an unplayable wet turd of a disappointment obviously and is among the worst ever Dragon Ball games this side of Taiketsu (its a close race, but Final Bout is probably better than that if only for the amazing soundtrack alone), but that in no way discounts the substantial buzz leading up to its release: first ever fully polygon-based 3D Dragon Ball game, ostensibly the last ever DB game before the franchise was to be laid to rest (at the time that is), and the first one to finally get brought to the U.S. officially and without a reskinning.

Final Bout's a bad game (that also may or may not be the reason why GT got an extra couple more arcs wrung out of it), but it was hardly an obscure or low profile release at the time without a doubt.

They're absolutely one arc. The first story line begins with the scattering of the Ultimate Dragon Balls, and ends with Goku's confrontation of Baby on the Tsufuru-jin planet (so it even keeps in step with the galactic tour theme until the end). The whole conspiracy around Baby also starts as early as episode ... what? Like, seven? Whenever the Para-Para Brothers first steal the Dragon Balls and lead them to the Luud Cult.

I know the first arc gets a lot of flack, but I credit it for resembling one of Toriyama's story lines in that you'd have to be an idiot-savant to effectively predict what its climax would look like anywhere before around 3/4ths of the way in.

Definitely agreed on the whole Baby arc being one giant arc starting from the very first GT episode. I never liked breaking it into two much the same as I was never fond of splitting the Freeza arc into "Namek and Freeza" or Cell into "Artificial Humans and Cell". There's way too much connective tissue binding all those stories together into one overarching plot.

I'm also a little amazed at the level of intense, seething vitriol that's often flung at the Super 17 arc. Don't get me wrong, its EASILY the worst written GT arc of the three, and the entire plot is a gigantic clusterfuck that's just BARELY this side of coherent and - in true GT fashion - it utterly wastes TONS of great, promising ideas (a confrontation between a post-Boo arc Vegeta and a revived Nappa and you don't do ANYTHING with it? Just let it sit there? Really?). About the only positive I have to say about it at all really is Super 17's actual character design, which is nothing short of excellent. But the reason I'm so amazed at how much its being cited as "the key reason why GT sucks" is due more to how INSANELY short it is: short to the point of being borderline inconsequential.

Sure its a shitty mess of an arc: but its like what, 7 episodes or something? The fucking Garlic Jr. arc was longer and more substantial than that. Its the one and only time ever where the Japanese arc-breakdown feels almost FUNimation-esque (i.e. "The Captain Ginyu Saga" and "The Trunks Saga" etc).

Again don't misunderstand me, the Super 17 arc eats shit and is probably the single worst arc of the entire DB/DBZ/DBGT anime franchise: but you can blink or go to the bathroom and easily miss most of it for all the time it actually eats up in the grand scheme of things. I just find getting worked up about that one little nothing of a barely-an-arc to be sort of overblown.

[shinmaru]

Would you agree that episodes 1-40 are part of one arc in GT? People tend to separate it in Black Star DB Arc and Baby Arc, but they collect the dbs before and after Baby appeared and the whole deal with them is solved with episode 40. And then Super 17 is shortest arc ever with 7 episodes and it leads into final Evil Dragons Arc, like Saiyan leads into Freeza.

I agree, and I think Baby arc was the only true arc in GT that Toei did, scenes of Baby are shown in the final ending of GT and in the opening scene of Goku Jr special ignoring the Dragon arc.

[LuckyCat]

Final Bout's a bad game (that also may or may not be the reason why GT got an extra couple more arcs wrung out of it), but it was hardly an obscure or low profile release at the time without a doubt.

I don't know, it ranked 45th in global sales of DB games sales underperforming many earlier NES, SNES, and Gameboy games. If it's not low profile, I don't think you could call it a hit either. That's part of what puts the whole GT rumor to scrutiny. But if someone could find an official source that lends some credibility to the rumor, I'd be open to read it.

More likely, I think, Toei/Bandai had merchandise deals tied to GT all over the toy markets, and Final Bout was a fraction of the equation.

[Kunzait_83]

I don't know, it ranked 45th in global sales of DB games sales underperforming many earlier NES, SNES, and Gameboy games. If it's not low profile, I don't think you could call it a hit either. That's part of what puts the whole GT rumor to scrutiny. But if someone could find an official source that lends some credibility to the rumor, I'd be open to read it.

More likely, I think, Toei/Bandai had merchandise deals tied to GT all over the toy markets, and Final Bout was a fraction of the equation.

I never said the game was a sales hit: I said it was hyped up pre-release and wasn't an obscure game release by any means. Big difference. Tons of games that are fluffed up by the press and by pre-release buzz end up tanking due to a variety of factors: in this case the simple fact that the game actually blew pretty hard and the word of mouth on that quickly spread.

You're probably right that it was more of a general merchandising incentive to keep GT going beyond just solely the game, but I think what gave credence to the notion that it was primarily the game back in the day was how (relatively) overblown its pre-release hype for it was: it seemed like a lot of marketing was sunk into it at the time. Again, not that it mattered: the game flopped pretty hard in actual sales, and deservedly so.

[Kuririn Fan]

Kunzait
Yeah, i always found it weird when people separate Namek & Freeza and Art. Humans & Cell, those are 2 arcs, not 4 (my signature shows how i divide the manga). And Super 17 arc is mostly hated because the whole premise doesn't make any fucking sense.