Kaio-sama's Techniques

[The S]

Okay, I was thinking... since Goku learned Fist of the Kaio (Kaio-ken) and Genki Dama under Kaio-sama's training, does that mean that the Kaio himself can perform these techniques?

[Jerseymilk]

Yes he can. It was edited out for some reason in the dubbed version, but in the original Japanese version during Goku's training with Kaio-sama the two of them are both shown racing along and smashing a line of large rocks, while they're using the Kaio-ken technique.

[Deus ex Machina]

Yes he can. It was edited out for some reason in the dubbed version, but in the original Japanese version during Goku's training with Kaio-sama the two of them are both shown racing along and smashing a line of large rocks, while they're using the Kaio-ken technique.

Really? I had no fricken idea The dub went as far as having Kaio say that he couldn't perform Kaio-ken. Man, what was the point of that? FUNimation has serious script problems.

[B-kun]

Yes he can. It was edited out for some reason in the dubbed version, but in the original Japanese version during Goku's training with Kaio-sama the two of them are both shown racing along and smashing a line of large rocks, while they're using the Kaio-ken technique.

Really? I had no fricken idea The dub went as far as having Kaio say that he couldn't perform Kaio-ken. Man, what was the point of that? FUNimation has serious script problems.

Well, I think it's said in all versions that Kaiou-sama couldn't perform the Genki Dama. I think he was surprised when Goku pulled it off because of that.

[Epsilon Grey]

Never really understood why the 'gods' themselves were so weak. They seem to only have a limited knowledge of events and lesser beings, and although they can 'see' things, they are usually unable to stop them. e.g. Majin Buu.

How do mere mortals surpass them?

--EG

[Adamant]

Well. Here's a quote from the danish manga (yeah, it's not perfectly accurate, but at least it's better than the dub:

Kaiou: Maybe he still can manage to master the techinque...
Kaiou: ...I've always dreamed of, but never mastered. Kaioken!!! The deadly technique!!! The technique over all techniques!!!

[SSJHitch]

Yes he can. It was edited out for some reason in the dubbed version, but in the original Japanese version during Goku's training with Kaio-sama the two of them are both shown racing along and smashing a line of large rocks, while they're using the Kaio-ken technique.

Well in Volume 18, as done by Viz, Kaio-Sama states:

He may be the one who can master the Kaio-Ken. The Kaio-Ken that I have yearned of...but could never master myself...!!!! Oh, for that final attack...!!!!

I'm sure that it'll be the same in the Japanese manga, but perhaps Julian could clear that up.

EDIT: Ha ha. Guess me and Adamant thought of the same thing there ^_^'

[James R. Cadwell]

Never really understood why the 'gods' themselves were so weak. They seem to only have a limited knowledge of events and lesser beings, and although they can 'see' things, they are usually unable to stop them. e.g. Majin Buu.

How do mere mortals surpass them?

--EG

The lower gods aren't particularly powerful, but Kaioshin was probably the strongest being in the DB universe during the interim between Majin Buu's containment and the appearance of Perfect Cell.

[Zackarotto]

I think Kaioshin was weaker than Perfect Cell, who was about the same power as Dabura, who Kaioshin was terrified of, right? The only reason Kaioshin was so calm and sure in the beginning was because he hadn't bothered to monitor them since the Freeza saga. I'm sure he expected Goku to be more than just a little stronger than Freeza after all those years, but he wasn't expecting that much of a change, considering talk of Cell and SSJ2 had surprised him.

[James R. Cadwell]

I think Kaioshin was weaker than Perfect Cell, who was about the same power as Dabura, who Kaioshin was terrified of, right? The only reason Kaioshin was so calm and sure in the beginning was because he hadn't bothered to monitor them since the Freeza saga. I'm sure he expected Goku to be more than just a little stronger than Freeza after all those years, but he wasn't expecting that much of a change, considering talk of Cell and SSJ2 had surprised him.

Piccolo said that Kaioshin was much stronger than him, so I'd assume that he's somewhere around the level that Vegeta reached in the "Room of Spirit and Time". That's far beyond 99.9% of mortals, but weak enough to explain why Dabura would frighten him.

[Zackarotto]

Maybe Piccolo only thought Kaioshin was stronger? I always thought it was the ki he sensed combined with the confident feeling Kaioshin had that he would win... I figured Piccolo would have won, and it was a shame that he had forfeit.

Of course, if they fought, the amount of energy lost from both fighters might have turned the tide for Buu and company. It was a good thing that the fight didn't happen, when you think of it that way.

[James R. Cadwell]

Maybe Piccolo only thought Kaioshin was stronger? I always thought it was the ki he sensed combined with the confident feeling Kaioshin had that he would win...

If confidence can make your "ki" appear greater, then Perfect Cell should have been terrified of Vegeta.

I figured Piccolo would have won, and it was a shame that he had forfeit.

I think Piccolo specifically said that they were "dimensions apart" or something to that effect.

Of course, if they fought, the amount of energy lost from both fighters might have turned the tide for Buu and company. It was a good thing that the fight didn't happen, when you think of it that way.

IIRC, only the energy lost by fighting a "Majin" would contribute to Buu's release.

[Super Sonic]

I think Piccolo forfeited because he was freaking out at the whole "guy on top of the god hierarchy" thing. What I don't get is how come Tien or Yamcha never used Kaio-ken when they came back to life. They were there long enough they could have learned it.

[Jerseymilk]

Well, according to Kaio-sama, it was a near-impossible technique to master. Even he couldn't do it, and as far as we know, Goku's the only pupil that he's ever had that's mastered it. So it's highly doubtful that Yamucha and Tenshinhan could master it. Definitely not Yamucha. I believe Tenshinhan might have had a chance since he's so gifted at controlling his "ki", but as I said, it seems to a be next to impossible technique to acquire.

[Zackarotto]

I just meant they would be worn out, not that the energy would actually go to Buu. The two of them did help outan okay deal , right?

The confidence wouldn't make the ki appear stronger, but it would might just trick Piccolo into thinking Kaioshin was going to win. I doubt Piccolo was used to fighting people weaker than him that actually thought thy could best him in a fight. Good point about Vegeta, though.

Still, I was just thinking on the idea. There was a point in power between Piccolo and Cell, as you said. But would that be "dimensions apart"? Maybe Kaioshin was stronger, but the his confidence is what made the transition from "stronger than me" to "dimensions apart from me".

[Jerseymilk]

I still think it's because Piccolo sensed that Kaioshin was "supernatural" in the "god" sense. If you remember Kaioshin comes up to him shortly after and asks if Piccolo knows who he is. Piccolo seems to have a suspicion as to the correct answer or at least pretty close to it. I know that he did say that he "our dimensions are too different" but that only be because he didn't want to explain the real truth to the others until he knew why Kaioshin was even there.

[Epsilon Grey]

Well, according to Kaio-sama, it was a near-impossible technique to master. Even he couldn't do it, and as far as we know, Goku's the only pupil that he's ever had that's mastered it. So it's highly doubtful that Yamucha and Tenshinhan could master it. Definitely not Yamucha. I believe Tenshinhan might have had a chance since he's so gifted at controlling his "ki", but as I said, it seems to a be next to impossible technique to acquire.

Indeed, Yamcha is a putz.

Tien has a chance, but the problem is most likely more physical than anything else. A human body probably can't handle the strain of the Kaio-Ken. From what we've seen of Saiyan physiology, they can take quite a beating and keep on ticking. Just look at Vegeta fighting Buu at the very end of the Buu saga.

Perhaps in the afterlife the the humans could master it, as there is little importance as to the strain one puts on one's body. Can't die if you're already dead, right?

Another question: did Goku ever use Kaio-ken while SSJ? I've been told that he did while fighting Pikkon. It seems like a fantastic combination, but probably impossible outside of otherworld, where his body would be destroyed under the strain of both power-ups.

And I'm still curious as to what exactly the gods do. What else is there about them besides ki manipulation and quasi-omnipotence? I would think that being a god gives you more perks than that...

--EG

[Zackarotto]

Yeah, I forgot all about that. He might have not even sensed his ki, but just already knew his level of strength by reputation.

[Deus ex Machina]

Another question: did Goku ever use Kaio-ken while SSJ? I've been told that he did while fighting Pikkon. It seems like a fantastic combination, but probably impossible outside of otherworld, where his body would be destroyed under the strain of both power-ups.

And I'm still curious as to what exactly the gods do. What else is there about them besides ki manipulation and quasi-omnipotence? I would think that being a god gives you more perks than that...

--EG

Yes it's true, while fighting Paikuhan Goku transforms into a SSJ, then to break out of a particular hold he then uses a "Super Kaio-Ken" for a short time. From what I understand this scene was non-canon, as some people theorize that he really had no more reason to use Kaio-ken once he's transformed. But you might also conclude that while transformed, that Kaio-Ken uses up way too much energy to maintain (Hence, he only used it once while dead)

As for the Gods, it's true that hey don't seem all that powerful, but that's only because their always being compared to the Super Saiyans, a race that was legendary for its destructive powers. Their not omnipotent as some people believe a proper god should be, but then their's been multiple cultures and myhtologies on Earth were Gods were like this. The Viking Gods for example didn't age but could be slain in battle, etc.

[Jerseymilk]

Another question: did Goku ever use Kaio-ken while SSJ? I've been told that he did while fighting Pikkon. It seems like a fantastic combination, but probably impossible outside of otherworld, where his body would be destroyed under the strain of both power-ups.

And I'm still curious as to what exactly the gods do. What else is there about them besides ki manipulation and quasi-omnipotence? I would think that being a god gives you more perks than that...

--EG

Yes it's true, while fighting Paikuhan Goku transforms into a SSJ, then to break out of a particular hold he then uses a "Super Kaio-Ken" for a short time. From what I understand this scene was non-canon, as some people theorize that he really had no more reason to use Kaio-ken once he's transformed. But you might also conclude that while transformed, that Kaio-Ken uses up way too much energy to maintain (Hence, he only used it once while dead)

I agree with you on that point Deus. I think it probably works the same way as with the Potara earrings. As the Old Kaioshin said, it would be pointless for Goku and Vegita to go SSJ once they fused because it would just be a drain on their power. It's most likely the same situation when a SSJ uses Kaio-Ken.