Humans...do they ever reach the level of Super Saiya-jin?

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 4:42 pm

For those of you who were confused about my subject line, allow me to explain. My question is entirely directed towards Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Kuririn. I was just curious do the humans actually reach the same level of strength as a Super Saiya-jin? I don't want to rely,rather turn to suspected power levels. I was just using various Canon references to develop my inquiry. For example the early Android episodes (i.e. Goku vs #19.). We see Tenshinhan marveling at the sight of a fully Transformed Super Saiya-jin Goku. It is more than evident that at this point Ten is nowhere near the level of Super Saiya-jin at its lowest levels of power (i.e. Goku's heart virus.).

We also know that Tenshinhan does not have the oppurtunity to build up his strength until before the Cell games,when he trains in the Room of Spirit and Time. This is the point where I get hazy, if I am not mistaken (and I just might be, hence the set up in case I am.) Kuririn and Yamcha both train in the Room of Spirit and Time. Pushing both of their levels up towards the same region as Tenshinhan. After the Cell games it is mentioned among friends that Yamcha has given up fighting and sub-sequentialy training, obviously dropping his power a few notches. Kuririn however appears at the Tenkaichi Budokai to have contiued his training to an extent. (I suppose he found time between raising a daughter and handling his mechanical wifes needs.) At this point is it safe to say that his strength is somewhere around if not AT the same level as Goku at full power against #19?

Then in the fight against Super Boo when Tenshinhan makes an appearance,albeit breif we are given the oppurtunity to see a glimpse of how much HE has improved. We really don't know much about Tenshinhan's activiys at this point in the story. We do know from various sources at various times that he is training with Choazu somewhere. So is it safe to say the Tenshinhan we see in the fight against Boo is at least at the same level as a fully transformed Super Saiya-jin? Please don't flag me for ranting I just wanted to cover the question as fully as I possibly could and I doubt I even touched the tip of the iceberg.

SSJHitch · Post by **SSJHitch** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:27 pm

Beelz wrote:...Tenshinhan does not have the oppurtunity to build up his strength until before the Cell games,when he trains in the Room of Spirit and Time...

Um, does that happen? I can't remember that at all.

Sun_Wukong · Post by **Sun_Wukong** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:29 pm

Id say Tenshinhan couldve quite possilby gotten up there by the end of the Buu saga. The only time Yamucha and Kuririn even train is the month before the tournament. During the Cell saga, Ten was probably the strength of Goku's fully powered KaioKen, or the so called Demi-SSJ. So yeah, I'd say Ten was at least equivilant to the level of SSJ by the end of the manga. I could imagine it takes an ordinary human a hell've an ammount of time to reach that level.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 5:56 pm

Sun_Wukong wrote:Id say Tenshinhan couldve quite possilby gotten up there by the end of the Buu saga. The only time Yamucha and Kuririn even train is the month before the tournament. During the Cell saga, Ten was probably the strength of Goku's fully powered KaioKen, or the so called Demi-SSJ. So yeah, I'd say Ten was at least equivilant to the level of SSJ by the end of the manga. I could imagine it takes an ordinary human a hell've an ammount of time to reach that level.

Lesse.. How old would Tenshinhan be at the time? I think he's around the same age as Bulma, so.. damn, he really doesn't age all that much.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:07 pm

Yamcha doesn't train before the tournament. Why would he? He's not completing, and he's "given up fightin".

And none of them ever trained in the room of Spirit and Time. Tenshinhan had the opportunity, but turned it down.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:32 pm

Super Saiyan makes you 50 times stronger, so no. Never.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:51 pm

Dayspring makes statement that isn't canonical. So maybe.

Although I do actually agree with the idea that Super Saiyan is a state that boosts your natural power level, rather than it being a power level in itself. It's like Kaio-Ken XP. Better, more stable, and has, er, rounded corners and stuff.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:55 pm

Uh... Tenshinhan obviously went beyond the earliest stage of Super Saiyan, just by looking at him against Cell stage 2. Could "omg kuririn just died" Goku do that? No.

I don't like getting deep into things like this, so I'll leave other conversations about later stages of SSJ and other characters to different people.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 7:56 pm

It's difficult to say for sure, but I believe none of the "earthlings" ever reach the same strength as even basic Super Saiyan.

Just to help clear up your memory, Yamucha and Kuririn never use the room of Spirit and Time; Tenshinhan tells Goku that he would turn down his chance because he didn't believe he would be able to make a difference.

The clearest peice of evidence about the Earthlings power levels come during the Boo saga, when Ten' is kicked from behind by Super Boo's dismembered legs. He is knocked out and nearly killed by this single attack, and probably would've died if Dende had not healed him. I think if Ten' was atleast as strong as a normal Super Saiyan he wouldn't have been hurt quite that badly.

Even though Tenshinhan is considered the strongest of the 3 'human' warriors, Yamucha is actually able to beat Olibu at the Grand Kaio's world, but then even Olibu isn't as strong as SSJ.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:07 pm

I don't think Tenshinhan is the be all and end all in terms of power simply because his kikohos are godly. I think he just has an incredible control over his KI. Note that each time he uses it he even almost kills himself no matter how powerful he is. In fact, he did kill himself with them once.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 8:57 pm

Dayspring wrote:I don't think Tenshinhan is the be all and end all in terms of power simply because his kikohos are godly. I think he just has an incredible control over his KI. Note that each time he uses it he even almost kills himself no matter how powerful he is. In fact, he did kill himself with them once.

You mean the Saiya-jin Saga? I have the feeling he would've collapsed if he fired even a standard ki blast. Kikoho might've actually been too much for him. It seemed oddly like he was using ki he didn't have. I dunno.

For some reason, I keep thinking about the first time he uses Kikoho in DB. Everyone was freaking out about how it'd kill him, he didn't stand a chance, etc. Then he fired it and just seemed incredibly out of breath. Well, it was probably a bit worse, and my memory's not working right today, but yeah.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 9:57 pm

They were worried it he might not be strong enough to use it yet. Even if he was, he'd be dangerously exerted, as was the case.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:09 pm

Dayspring wrote:Super Saiyan makes you 50 times stronger, so no. Never.

I agree that the SSJ transformation is a power BOOST. My question however was do the humans ever reach the same strength the saiyans have with the boost. I felt kinda ify on the idea of Tenshinhan training in the Room of Spirit and Time but for some reason I kept thinking that he and Piccolo trained in there together obviously I was wrong. On the subject of the kick delivered by Super Boo making Tenshinhan obviously weaker than a Super Saiya-jin seems slightly unfounded.

Deus ex Machina wrote:... is knocked out and nearly killed by this single attack, and probably would've died if Dende had not healed him.

I do not think Ten was knocking on deaths door because of this kick alone. I mean Satan got knocked around by Kid Boo and remained virtually unharmed. If that were the case then someone could make the assumption that Satan is stronger than Tenshinhan. This kick just seems a little out of character for Tenshinhan I am sure the guy would have had the wind knocked out of him but I doubt he would have been taken out completely. I think that if any one of the humans actually reached the same level of strength that a saiyan reaches while transformed it would logically be Ten. I wish there was a way to reference how Chibi Trunks or Goten transformed would have taken the same kick dealt from Super Boo.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:10 pm

Zackarotto wrote:Uh... Tenshinhan obviously went beyond the earliest stage of Super Saiyan, just by looking at him against Cell stage 2. Could "omg kuririn just died" Goku do that? No.

Shin Kikoho probably generates more power than Goku could have as a Super Saiya-jin on Namek. I don't think it's clear whether or not Tenshinhan actually has that power available when he isn't using Kikoho.

Deus ex Machina wrote:The clearest peice of evidence about the Earthlings power levels come during the Boo saga, when Ten' is kicked from behind by Super Boo's dismembered legs. He is knocked out and nearly killed by this single attack, and probably would've died if Dende had not healed him. I think if Ten' was atleast as strong as a normal Super Saiyan he wouldn't have been hurt quite that badly.

The second form of Cell could have killed an "ordinary" Super Saiya-jin with a single blow. He put a hole in "Artificial Human" #16's head that would have been fatal to anything made of flesh and blood. #16 was much, much stronger than the initial level of Super Saiya-jin that Goku achieved on Namek.

Epsilon Grey · Post by **Epsilon Grey** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:13 pm

No, I don't think the humans ever approach that level. I'd say at most they barely broke a million at the end of the Cell Saga.

Tien's attack somehow has the ability to radically amplify the effect of his ki, so his attack is probably equal to a blast shot from someone many times his physical strength.

Oh, if only they could get stronger. You can see my thoughts on this matter in my thread entitled 'Humans'.

--EG

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Sun Apr 25, 2004 10:16 pm

Beelz wrote:I do not think Ten was knocking on deaths door because of this kick alone. I mean Satan got knocked around by Kid Boo and remained virtually unharmed. If that were the case then someone could make the assumption that Satan is stronger than Tenshinhan. This kick just seems a little out of character for Tenshinhan I am sure the guy would have had the wind knocked out of him but I doubt he would have been taken out completely. I think that if any one of the humans actually reached the same level of strength that a saiyan reaches while transformed it would logically be Ten. I wish there was a way to reference how Chibi Trunks or Goten transformed would have taken the same kick dealt from Super Boo.

"Super" Buu punches Trunks in the "Room of Spirit and Time" and it doesn't really affect him. Trunks wasn't even a Super Saiya-jin when that happened.

I wouldn't really say that's comparable to being kicked in the back of the head while you're off-guard, though, since we know surprise attacks reduce defensive capabilities.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 12:41 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:Even though Tenshinhan is considered the strongest of the 3 'human' warriors, Yamucha is actually able to beat Olibu at the Grand Kaio's world, but then even Olibu isn't as strong as SSJ.

Considering the fact that this "Olibu" character doesn't exist outside filler land, where the humans could kick the crap out of the Ginyu Squad at the time everybody was fighting Freeza, your point is void.

And, a human being stronger than Freeza, who was considered the strongest being in the universe? No. Just no.

Post by **TripleRach** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:04 pm

I think it's difficult to say what exactly the SSJ level is. Not everyone at that level is going to be perfectly equal. For example, SSJ Gotenks is far stronger than anyone else at base SSJ. It must be more of a multiplicative factor of the individual's power than a unanimous power level for all.

That said, I do think it's entirely feasible that Tenshinhan, at the end of the manga, got up around the same level as Gokuu during the Freeza fight.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 1:31 pm

Yes, I agree. Kikoho may be much more powerful than Tenshinhan without using Kikoho is, but it's safe to assume that he could reach SSJ Goku-on-Namek's level after all those years, seeing as he kept on training and it was pre-Perfect Cell's time during that measure of Tenshinhan's strength.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Mon Apr 26, 2004 3:25 pm

Adamant wrote:And, a human being stronger than Freeza, who was considered the strongest being in the universe? No. Just no.

I absolutly completely disagree with that. Just because Tenshinhan is human does not mean he can't reach or even surpass Freezas strength. The statement that he was the strongest being in th universe is also unfounded. I mean obviously with the arrival of Babidi we are introduced to characters just as strong and stronger than Freezawho were alive at the same time as Freeza. Kaio-shin discusses this fact with everyone stateing simply that he could have defeated Freeza with ease. Not that you can really count Kaio-shin as "living in this univrse", but he can obviously transend all dimensions so techniqually I suppose you could count that.

Kanzenshuu

Humans...do they ever reach the level of Super Saiya-jin?

Humans...do they ever reach the level of Super Saiya-jin?

Re: Humans...do they ever reach the level of Super Saiya-jin