Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Tue Feb 16, 2016 3:41 am

Zombie wrote:Can you guys post your numrbers for Future Trunks [Before he travels to the past], Future Gohan and Future Vegeta?
For reference, Freeza Arc SS Goku - 150
- Future Vegeta (SS) - 150
- Future Gohan (SS) - 140
--- rematch - 160
- Future Trunks (SS)- 165
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Desassina » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:32 am

To solve the whole issue with Good Buu and Evil Buu (the grey one), I prefer using multiplication. The manga had one statement that goes along these lines: "during the split, the majority of his power...", but split is not a good word for what happened. We see Evil Buu being cast out by Fat Buu's steaming anger, leaving the latter as Good Buu, so Evil Buu is made of Fat Buu's top power, while Good Buu is made of Fat Buu's bottom power. Together, they make a far better Buu (Super Buu), than if it were just one. Here it goes:

- Fat Buu's power ranges from 1.28 and 2, but he sits more comfortably at 1.6.
- Evil Buu gets 2 in terms of power, while Good Buu gets the lowest (1.28).
- Super Buu becomes 2.56 when Evil Buu absorbs Good Buu (2 * 1.28).

I'll leave the rest:

- Good Buu = 1.28
- Fat Buu = 1.6
- Evil Buu = 2
- Super Buu = 2.56
- Buff Buu = 3.2
- Kid Buu = 4

The only thing I can't explain so well is Super Buu's reversal into Buff Buu, because it's not as easy as going from Kid Buu to the latter, and then Fat Buu. Basically, he needs to be divided by 0.8 twice, and 2 times 0.8 is Fat Buu's power, so I guess that once Vegeta pulled him out, Super Buu lost twice the suppression.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:21 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Your avatar is good enough for him. :P
Touche ;)
LightBing wrote:How does Grey Boo gets such an increase just by eating/absorbing Fat Boo? When you seem to use the pure addition theory for Boo's a
absorption's?
Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with Grey Boo so I kind of just half-assed this part. Is there any explanation for why Boo apparently has a gargantuan load of power just stashed away?
I just assume he doesn't, since it makes no sense. It's simply Majin Boo + Pure Boo = Super Boo. Grey Boo is Pure Boo manifestation, without the "pink characteristics" and the power portion left in the now called Mr.Boo. When he absorbs Mr.Boo he doesn't turn into Pure Boo because he suffers from the influence of the former.
I just make the SSJ boost in Gotenks and Vegetto small. Assuming they have some access to it's power like Post BoG Goku and Vegeta or Ultimate Gohan.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:11 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote: Your avatar is good enough for him. :P
Touche ;)
LightBing wrote:How does Grey Boo gets such an increase just by eating/absorbing Fat Boo? When you seem to use the pure addition theory for Boo's a
absorption's?
Honestly, I don't really understand what's going on with Grey Boo so I kind of just half-assed this part. Is there any explanation for why Boo apparently has a gargantuan load of power just stashed away?
Sure. It all has to do with the Kaoshin that Pure Boo absorbed. I operate under the asumption that when Boo absorbs the Kaioshin, its more like a fusion than a simple absorbtion, if that makes any sense. Absorbing the burly and strong southern Kaioshin increases Boos power by a huge margin, whereas absorbing the plump and gentle Dai Kaioshin weakened him. The power that Boo lost didn't just dissappear. Rather, it was kinda sealed away by Dai Kaioshin's presence, unable to be used. When the fat and thin Boos recombine with evil in charge, Boo now has access to much more (but not all of) the power that the southern Kaioshin granted.

In numbers:
- Pure Boo: 10
- Boo + southern Kaioshin (buff Boo): 50
- Boo + Dai Kaioshin (fat Boo): 5
--- angered to the point of splitting: 10
--- minus evil: 4
- pure evil Boo: 6
- pure evil Boo + good Boo (evil Boo): 30
--- Gotenks absorbed: 65
--- Gohan absorbed: 75

Does this help?
That helps great! I can keep Grey Boo as he is and simply say that him eating Fat Boo simply removes the big cap on his power as a consequence of Fat Boo being nice. Basically a sort of potential unlock or in your case, fusion.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ahill1 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:16 pm

@Zombie:

Goku SSJ [Namek] : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [right after travel to the past] : 200,000,000

I don't think Vegeta achieved SSJ in the future.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Sandubadear » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:44 pm

ahill1 wrote:@Zombie:

Goku SSJ [Namek] : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [right after travel to the past] : 200,000,000

I don't think Vegeta achieved SSJ in the future.
The anime shows he did, but you can ignore it if you go only by the manga.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:31 pm

ahill1 wrote:@Zombie:

Goku SSJ [Namek] : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [right after travel to the past] : 200,000,000

I don't think Vegeta achieved SSJ in the future.
This is considering Vegeta achived Super Saiyan.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:56 am

Zombie wrote:Can you guys post your numbers for Future Trunks [Before he travels to the past], Future Gohan and Future Vegeta?

Reference:

- SS goku (namek) = 100,000,000
- "100%" freeza , namek - 100,000,000
- ''100%" HEALTHY freeza = 120,000,000

Yadrat goku = 110 million

Future gohan (1st battle) = 75 million
Future gohan (one arm) = 95 million , base - 3.8 million

Future trunks (kid) = 140,000 , SS - 3,500,000
Future trunks (vs future androids) = SS - 93 million
Future trunks (vs freeza) = 95 million

Future trunks (android arc) = 125 million

Future vegeta = about 7 million before death

Future piccolo = about 10 million pre death
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:09 pm

Heya! I've been tweaking my power levels since last time. A lot of them are the same, but there are some notable differences. Like last time, power levels from an official source will be written in blue. I've also included my pre-Raditz numbers. I'm always open for criticism and debate, so tell me what you think Anyway, on to the list!
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:48 pm

A pretty solid list with a few things bugging me:

- Gohan seems a bit too strong after his not training for 7 years. The way Vegeta and Goku talk about him, he seems to have lost quite a chunk of power instead of just a little like in your list.
- Gohan commented that Goten and Trunks would leave him in the dust soon so I think they should at least be close to where Goku was at the Cell Games. Certainly above Piccolo.
- Gotenks should already be above SSJ3 Goku or at the very least close to him. Piccolo suggested throwing them both into the ROSAT but Goku advised against it, thinking it would be better to save that in case something else came up down the line. So unless Goku was lying (I don't see why he would about this since Gotenks is their last hope at the time) I think he should already be at or very, very close to SSJ3 tier before the ROSAT.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:12 pm

The only real issue for me is SSG2 Vegeta and PC gap. Cell tanked a kick to the neck, he should be way stronger.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:19 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:A pretty solid list with a few things bugging me:

- Gohan seems a bit too strong after his not training for 7 years. The way Vegeta and Goku talk about him, he seems to have lost quite a chunk of power instead of just a little like in your list.
- Gohan commented that Goten and Trunks would leave him in the dust soon so I think they should at least be close to where Goku was at the Cell Games. Certainly above Piccolo.
- Gotenks should already be above SSJ3 Goku or at the very least close to him. Piccolo suggested throwing them both into the ROSAT but Goku advised against it, thinking it would be better to save that in case something else came up down the line. So unless Goku was lying (I don't see why he would about this since Gotenks is their last hope at the time) I think he should already be at or very, very close to SSJ3 tier before the ROSAT.
- I'm glad you brought that up. Gohan did get a lot weaker due to not training for 7 years, and was at best equal to Goku during the Cell Games. However, he was able to make up some of that lost ground in the month he spent training for the 25th Budokai.
- In the same conversation as that "these kids will leave me in the dust" comment, Goten mentions that he couldn't hit Gohan even once, which would put him significantly below Gohan. Also there's the whole "Evil Boo with Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo absorbed resembles Piccolo more than either of the Super Saiyan kids" argument, but that can be open to interpretation.
- Daizenshuu 7 implies that Gotenks didn't even surpass Vegeta until his stint in the RoSaT. As far as Gotenks' strength being compared to Goku's strength, Goku isn't being honest about how strong he is, so who knows if Gotenks was actually stronger than him. Anyway, Goku predicts that Gotenks would be enough to beat Fat Boo, but because fusion doesn't have a consistent power boost, he doesn't know for sure. Kaboom explains it more thoroughly here.
Zombie wrote:The only real issue for me is SSG2 Vegeta and PC gap. Cell tanked a kick to the neck, he should be way stronger.
I'm not to finicky about gaps, but if you want, it could be explained that Vegeta was a bit tired at that point, due to using his Grade 2 form for so long.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:30 pm

DanielSSJ wrote: - I'm glad you brought that up. Gohan did get a lot weaker due to not training for 7 years, and was at best equal to Goku during the Cell Games. However, he was able to make up some of that lost ground in the month he spent training for the 25th Budokai.
- In the same conversation as that "these kids will leave me in the dust" comment, Goten mentions that he couldn't hit Gohan even once, which would put him significantly below Gohan. Also there's the whole "Evil Boo with Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo absorbed resembles Piccolo more than either of the Super Saiyan kids" argument, but that can be open to interpretation.
- Daizenshuu 7 implies that Gotenks didn't even surpass Vegeta until his stint in the RoSaT. As far as Gotenks' strength being compared to Goku's strength, Goku isn't being honest about how strong he is, so who knows if Gotenks was actually stronger than him. Anyway, Goku predicts that Gotenks would be enough to beat Fat Boo, but because fusion doesn't have a consistent power boost, he doesn't know for sure. Kaboom explains it more thoroughly here.

- Ah, so you had his numbers post training immediately.
- Goten and Trunks revert to their base forms after defusing (plus they're asleep which automatically turns off any transformation for a Saiyan) so I wouldn't really use that as evidence of them being inferior to Piccolo as SSJs.
- I wasn't aware of that detail from the Daizenshuu and I can see Kaboom's point. I just don't think that Goku would lie about Gotenks not needing the ROSAT if he wasn't sure that Gotenks could make it without it. I know he lies about his own power but Gotenks is their last hope as far as he's aware, I know Goku's a scumbag asshole but I don't think even he'd feed them false hope in this case. Plus he's pretty honest when it comes to determining powers (outside of BoG). Still, the evidence is hard to ignore, might make me rethink my own list on the subject.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:43 pm

ekrolo2 wrote: - Ah, so you had his numbers post training immediately.
- Goten and Trunks revert to their base forms after defusing (plus they're asleep which automatically turns off any transformation for a Saiyan) so I wouldn't really use that as evidence of them being inferior to Piccolo as SSJs.
- I wasn't aware of that detail from the Daizenshuu and I can see Kaboom's point. I just don't think that Goku would lie about Gotenks not needing the ROSAT if he wasn't sure that Gotenks could make it without it. I know he lies about his own power but Gotenks is their last hope as far as he's aware, I know Goku's a scumbag asshole but I don't think even he'd feed them false hope in this case. Plus he's pretty honest when it comes to determining powers (outside of BoG). Still, the evidence is hard to ignore, might make me rethink my own list on the subject.
- I don't think Goten and Trunks being in base while inside Boo necessarily means anything. I'd bet that Boo is capable been drawing out their full power despite whatever state they're in. If you think Piccolo should be weaker, that's fine. I'm not saying that he has to be stronger than the kids or anything. I just don't see any evidence that proves that he's weaker, either.
- I'm not trying to make Goku out to be a scumbag or anything. Goku is only being dishonest about his own strength and how it relates to other characters' strength, like how he couldn't beat Fat Boo or how Gotenks would be stronger than him. He did believe that Gotenks would be powerful enough to beat fat Boo. He just happened to have overestimated the kids.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:52 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote: - Ah, so you had his numbers post training immediately.
- Goten and Trunks revert to their base forms after defusing (plus they're asleep which automatically turns off any transformation for a Saiyan) so I wouldn't really use that as evidence of them being inferior to Piccolo as SSJs.
- I wasn't aware of that detail from the Daizenshuu and I can see Kaboom's point. I just don't think that Goku would lie about Gotenks not needing the ROSAT if he wasn't sure that Gotenks could make it without it. I know he lies about his own power but Gotenks is their last hope as far as he's aware, I know Goku's a scumbag asshole but I don't think even he'd feed them false hope in this case. Plus he's pretty honest when it comes to determining powers (outside of BoG). Still, the evidence is hard to ignore, might make me rethink my own list on the subject.
- I don't think Goten and Trunks being in base while inside Boo necessarily means anything. I'd bet that Boo is capable been drawing out their full power despite whatever state they're in. If you think Piccolo should be weaker, that's fine. I'm not saying that he has to be stronger than the kids or anything. I just don't see any evidence that proves that he's weaker, either.
- I'm not trying to make Goku out to be a scumbag or anything. Goku is only being dishonest about his own strength and how it relates to other characters' strength, like how he couldn't beat Fat Boo or how Gotenks would be stronger than him. He did believe that Gotenks would be powerful enough to beat fat Boo. He just happened to have overestimated the kids.
- It is a weird area I admit but I think if Toriyama wanted to setup something like Boo being able to draw out someone's full power, I think he would've drawn the boys as SSJ regardless of being asleep. But since being asleep or unconscious usually reverts someone out of it, I just kinda go with him not being able to draw more power out of them.
- Very possible. Who knows, maybe if Piccolo noticed the boys still wouldn't be able to measure up to Fat Boo (if he never became Super Boo) he might've thrown them in there but that's just pure speculation.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Desassina » Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:52 pm

I really like your list, DanielSSJ. I never thought so much work could be poured into this kind of thing, and it's obviously holding me back from analyzing it. I don't want to point a few flaws out, because I haven't showcased a similar effort. When I do, I'll go back to yours.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:45 pm

My list.

Hunt for the Dragon Balls & Kame training arc:
21st Budokai Tenkaichi arc:
Red Ribbon Army/Baba arc:
22nd Budokai Tenkaichi arc:
Piccolo Daimao arc:
23rd Budokai Tenkaichi arc:
Saiyan arc:
Namek arc:
Artificial Human arc:
Boo arc:
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DanielSSJ » Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:58 pm

Desassina wrote:I really like your list, DanielSSJ. I never thought so much work could be poured into this kind of thing, and it's obviously holding me back from analyzing it. I don't want to point a few flaws out, because I haven't showcased a similar effort. When I do, I'll go back to yours.
Thank you, that means a lot. Though don't hold back on pointing out any flaws you see. It's one of the reasons I post power levels here in the first place.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:22 pm

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This is a really good list... buuuuuuuuuuuut... I'm gonna have to majorly disagree with SPC being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. i'm sorry, but the gap between SSJ2 Gohan with one arm and SPC is just way too damn large. If that was the case, there would have been no beam struggle at all. SPC's kamehameha would have overpowered SSJ2 Gohan's one handed kamehameha instantly. But that wasn't the case. Hell, Gohan was holding back the whole time out of fear. I mean, if SSJ2 Gohan who had only one good arm, was majorly drained of ki and was holding back out of fear was able to stand his ground in a beam battle with SPC who was going all out, then SSJ2 Gohan at full power with both arms would have dominated SPC.

Honestly though, I would hold on on putting BP's on guys like Botamo and Frost. You never know what kind of shit the anime could end up pulling in comparison to what happens in the manga. For all we know, King Ryu could end up rewriting the battle between Goku and Botamo and have they as equals or Botama putting up much more of challenge to how he was in the manga. You know Toei love doing shit like that, especially if it's battle involving Goku.

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:03 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:This is a really good list... buuuuuuuuuuuut... I'm gonna have to majorly disagree with SPC being stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. i'm sorry, but the gap between SSJ2 Gohan with one arm and SPC is just way too damn large. If that was the case, there would have been no beam struggle at all. SPC's kamehameha would have overpowered SSJ2 Gohan's one handed kamehameha instantly. But that wasn't the case. Hell, Gohan was holding back the whole time out of fear. I mean, if SSJ2 Gohan who had only one good arm, was majorly drained of ki and was holding back out of fear was able to stand his ground in a beam battle with SPC who was going all out, then SSJ2 Gohan at full power with both arms would have dominated SPC.
Well, I really just tried to connect all of the statements together. Gohan says he lost half of his Ki. Then Cell says he has powered-up greatly like Gohan, which, when combined with the fact that he seems like he has Super Saiyan-like states of his own, seems to hint at this stage being the equivalent of his Super Saiyan 2. And one of the Daizenshuus states that Gohan had a rage boost against Cell. Couple that with what looks like Cell toying with Gohan in the beam struggle, and you can see why I think Super Perfect Cell was stronger than a non-rage boosted Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. I think the rage boost the Daizenshuu speaks of came in when Gohan released everything after Vegeta distracted Cell, and that's what pushed him over SPC's battle power.

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