"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

next chapter might be after the fighting.

[marcbret87]

Essentially all power scale logic went out of the window the moment you present Freezer as an ultra-powerful being capable of destroying planets whenever he bloody well likes, with Goku needing to reach the supposedly legendary Super Saiyan form to beat him, to then come back to Earth and realise that some guy has created some Androids that put this power level to shame. Of course, for story progression it was necessary and Cell was a very good villain, but the point remains.

The power scale went out of the window the moment you got "Saiyans" introduced and all of them far surpassing Goku, in spite of him having unlocked the power of the Oozaru to beat King Piccolo. You can even see how that little detail is completely ignored in the official attempts to give power levels to pre-DBZ characters, since it really doesn't work with Z's power scale.

That's a fair point, though one could argue that Vegetta/Nappa/Raditz grew up in space and were not confined to one planet. Remember Goku was sent to Earth because his power levels were low and he was expected to dominate everybody on Earth easily. About him unlocking the power of Oozaru to beat King Piccolo, well, as far as I remember he drinks the sacred water or whatever it is to unlock his potential but and he Oozaru appears in the background, though not sure that means he has mastered the power of Oozaru. In any event, the jump from Freezer->Androids seems much more far-fetched than Kid/Young Goku -> Saiyans given that it expands the lore of the series. Or the current jump Buu->Beerus, where the former was supposed to be the ultimate enemy who slaughtered gods.

[TheMikado]

^ Agree, the Saiyan Arc was a fine continuation of the Dragonball series. The problem was the Namek Frieza saga kept exponentially increasing power levels and continued the trend, but even at that SSJ2 was only 2x as powerful so the leap was not as severe. I might help if we made a multiplier timeline chart to see the tremendous spikes. We would see that the initial x50 multiplier coupled with the multipliers Vegeta and Goku were getting from the saiyan arc in base form cause x100s power level jumps to be the norm. Like I said Frieza to Android was really like an x2 while Android to buu was really like an x4. Nothing like that frieza jump though.

[marcbret87]

^ Agree, the Saiyan Arc was a fine continuation of the Dragonball series. The problem was the Namek Freeza saga kept exponentially increasing power levels and continued the trend, but even at that SSJ2 was only 2x as powerful so the leap was not as severe. I might help if we made a multiplier timeline chart to see the tremendous spikes. We would see that the initial x50 multiplier coupled with the multipliers Vegeta and Goku were getting from the saiyan arc in base form cause x100s power level jumps to be the norm. Like I said Freeza to Android was really like an x2 while Android to buu was really like an x4. Nothing like that Freeza jump though.

The increase in the Namek saga made somewhat sense in that the context of them fighting a guy like Freeza, who had annihilated the Saiyan race with a single blow. It's just a bit harder to believe that one guy on Earth managed to create cyborgs surpassing this amazing power levels all on his own.

[TheMikado]

Maybe Beerus gave him the plans for the android designs.

From what I read, what really happened in terms of 17 & 18 was that he found their human components made them far too powerful.
Basically he enhanced human natural perpetual energy generation which cause them to have an "unlimited" amount of power.
No excuse for 16 though. 19 & 20 could have been made from information gained on 17 and 18.

[Neon Z]

Essentially all power scale logic went out of the window the moment you present Freezer as an ultra-powerful being capable of destroying planets whenever he bloody well likes, with Goku needing to reach the supposedly legendary Super Saiyan form to beat him, to then come back to Earth and realise that some guy has created some Androids that put this power level to shame. Of course, for story progression it was necessary and Cell was a very good villain, but the point remains.

The power scale went out of the window the moment you got "Saiyans" introduced and all of them far surpassing Goku, in spite of him having unlocked the power of the Oozaru to beat King Piccolo. You can even see how that little detail is completely ignored in the official attempts to give power levels to pre-DBZ characters, since it really doesn't work with Z's power scale.

That's a fair point, though one could argue that Vegetta/Nappa/Raditz grew up in space and were not confined to one planet. Remember Goku was sent to Earth because his power levels were low and he was expected to dominate everybody on Earth easily. About him unlocking the power of Oozaru to beat King Piccolo, well, as far as I remember he drinks the sacred water or whatever it is to unlock his potential but and he Oozaru appears in the background, though not sure that means he has mastered the power of Oozaru. In any event, the jump from Freezer->Androids seems much more far-fetched than Kid/Young Goku -> Saiyans given that it expands the lore of the series. Or the current jump Buu->Beerus, where the former was supposed to be the ultimate enemy who slaughtered gods.

The Oozaru also appears when he punches King Piccolo. The implication there was obviously that he was tapping into the Oozaru's power due to the mystic water, but, of course, that has to be completely ignored in Z in order to allow Goku to start bellow even Raditz, who also was a low class Saiyan.

[marcbret87]

Maybe Beerus gave him the plans for the android designs.

From what I read, what really happened in terms of 17 & 18 was that he found their human components made them far too powerful.
Basically he enhanced human natural perpetual energy generation which cause them to have an "unlimited" amount of power.
No excuse for 16 though. 19 & 20 could have been made from information gained on 17 and 18.

Lol, that's a good one

Yeah, sure, I could buy that explanation as them not getting tired. Now, that it enhances their power levels from regular humans to planet-busting levels is a bit harder to accept.

[marcbret87]

The Oozaru also appears when he punches King Piccolo. The implication there was obviously that he was tapping into the Oozaru's power due to the mystic water, but, of course, that has to be completely ignored in Z in order to allow Goku to start bellow even Raditz, who also was a low class Saiyan.

Well, to put things in context, Raditz is a low class saiyan who regularly hanged with Vegeta/Nappa/Other Freezer soldiers. All those guys greatly outclass the toughest opponent Goku had to face in Earth (Piccolo). So, even if Goku was able to tap into Oozaru, it wouldn't be so surprising that his brother, much more experienced against much tougher opponents, would be able to overpower him.

[manwolf]

Well Gero spies the characters until Vegeta fight, so he knows about ki and how the improve ki via kaioken and he calculate the progression of the characters based on training and the red ribbon have begun to have android in Dragon ball era with a robot/android that have the strength of Goku, so 8 android later and with all the knowledge is make sense that the androids have this power level, my doubt is if 8 is a pure robot a modified human or something between cause if he is a robot how Gero build 17 and 18 and if he is a cyborg how he build 16, well maybe he is another type of artificial being.

Buu is a jump of Cell, a indestructible character, with a mystical conception instead of a scientifical creation but Beerus is a god being in a verse with other god beings with is strength explained because he is a God, but non god characters can have this strength, yeah this make sense.

[marcbret87]

Well Gero spies the characters until Vegeta fight, so he knows about ki and how the improve ki via kaioken and he calculate the progression of the characters based on training and the red ribbon have begun to have android in Dragon ball era with a robot/android that have the strength of Goku, so 8 android later and with all the knowledge is make sense that the androids have this power level, my doubt is if 8 is a pure robot a modified human or something between cause if he is a robot how Gero build 17 and 18 and if he is a cyborg how he build 16, well maybe he is another type of artificial being.

Buu is a jump of Cell, a indestructible character, with a mystical conception instead of a scientifical creation but Beerus is a god being in a verse with other god beings with is strength explained because he is a God, but non god characters can have this strength, yeah this make sense.

Buu might be a bit of a stretch, but it's the classic ancient evil that was sealed but comes back to kick ass. I can buy Cell being Freezer level and more since he has his genes, the androids not so much. You are going from Kid Goku to more than Freezer from 8 to 16-20.

BTW, Gero acknowledges that he didnt take into account the Namek saga, hence why he is so surprised when Goku goes SSJ.

[sayian_nation_]

You know the problem with Cell was that no matter how much power and knowledge was instilled into him there always will be something stronger in his path, such as Gohans SSJ 2 transformation. A power up that was never recorded in Cell because it had not happened yet. He's like the androids phones out today, make one with all these special features and gadgets but in a couple months they have a new improved line of devices, Cell became outdated. A man made being against flesh and blood with a beating heart, Cell didn't stand a chance.

[TheMikado]

Well Gero spies the characters until Vegeta fight, so he knows about ki and how the improve ki via kaioken and he calculate the progression of the characters based on training and the red ribbon have begun to have android in Dragon ball era with a robot/android that have the strength of Goku, so 8 android later and with all the knowledge is make sense that the androids have this power level, my doubt is if 8 is a pure robot a modified human or something between cause if he is a robot how Gero build 17 and 18 and if he is a cyborg how he build 16, well maybe he is another type of artificial being.

Buu is a jump of Cell, a indestructible character, with a mystical conception instead of a scientifical creation but Beerus is a god being in a verse with other god beings with is strength explained because he is a God, but non god characters can have this strength, yeah this make sense.

Buu might be a bit of a stretch, but it's the classic ancient evil that was sealed but comes back to kick ass. I can buy Cell being Freezer level and more since he has his genes, the androids not so much. You are going from Kid Goku to more than Freezer from 8 to 16-20.

BTW, Gero acknowledges that he didnt take into account the Namek saga, hence why he is so surprised when Goku goes SSJ.

He did know about the Oozaru form and the Kaioken. If he was smart he would have taken those multipliers into consideration when making his androids. As for the androids heres what it says about 18's power level on DB wiki.

"Android 18 is fitted with a device that gives her a continuous and virtually infinite energy supply. This prevents her from becoming exhausted while fighting and augments her power enough to make her a formidable opponent even for any of the surviving Saiyans during the Android Saga. A skill which she shares with other android models is the ability to go undetected by ki signatures, as her power is substantiated by mechanics. Just like her brother, her cybernetic implants do not affect her ability to gain new skills and power levels through training, as shown by her ability to learn Krillin's signature attack and also her being able to match up to two Super Saiyans (Trunks and Goten) in the Buu saga."

[KidGoku>3]

^ True, but this has gone to ridiculous levels. We literally have a "God" tier which no ordinary being can obtain naturally except for Freeza and Monaka's race somehow..

At least in Dragonball everyone was more or less competitive based on martial arts skills.

Vegeta did it by himself, so everybody could in the right circumstances,

Which was stupid too. He just did it with no explanation. It just sort of..happened. Same with Frost now and all the other characters. Lazy writing.

Riddle me this. Goku was ahead of everyone else bar Beerus and Whis. Then after a couple months of training Vegeta becomes on par with Goku because reasons.
Then suddenly they introduce a new character with no backstory as being much stronger than Goku because...reasons. Now Goku is going to lose against a Freeza look-a-like who is miraculously much much stronger than Freeza...because reasons. Goku loses. Ok that's fine and all. Now I know many people like Piccolo and want him to shine but his character has become a joke, inferior in every way, weak. If he wins against Frost that'll be a complete and utter joke. He couldn't even go against Freeza's henchman he isn't even better than Gohan and Gohan is a JOKE. And Vegeta is on par with Goku. How would it make sense to have Goku lose against opponents that Vegeta easily can defeat ? I'm guessing he's going to defeat at least 1 opponent. Either Vegeta or Piccolo is going to defeat Frost most likely. If it's Vegeta I'll at least be able to kind of get it they're on the same level. If it's Piccolo however...I'm now more interested in how Goku gets defeated. I hope it's because of his lack of 100% focus. It's one thing Whis has mentioned many times throughout Super and I hope it's something that'll make Goku reevalute himself which in turn could add a bit of character development.

Now if they had build Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Frost,Monaka a bit more none of this would've been an issue for me. Sh1t just happens because reasons and it's getting a bit...meh. Things do not have weight to them. Which is probably my only major issue with DBS. Partially it wants to be DB and it does it fairly well but it also tries to shy away from DBZ in certain ways and lacks impact for me. About the fights...I still insist that DB had the best fight scenes. I love a kamehameha now and then but can they tone down the effects a bit and use more martial arts choreography ? By far my favourite moment in DBS has been the one punch by Goku on Freeza. I want the fights to be more like that and less about blowing energy. It gets stale after a while.

[Chuquita]

I just miss the training episodes (though I guess that's more anime than manga).

I want to actually see the characters making progress. It's more satisfying to see the results after seeing how they got to those results, but Super just skips most of the training making it feel like stuff was genuinely cut out of the final product imo.

[omaro34]

^ True, but this has gone to ridiculous levels. We literally have a "God" tier which no ordinary being can obtain naturally except for Freeza and Monaka's race somehow..

At least in Dragonball everyone was more or less competitive based on martial arts skills.

Vegeta did it by himself, so everybody could in the right circumstances,

Which was stupid too. He just did it with no explanation. It just sort of..happened. Same with Frost now and all the other characters. Lazy writing.

Riddle me this. Goku was ahead of everyone else bar Beerus and Whis. Then after a couple months of training Vegeta becomes on par with Goku because reasons.
Then suddenly they introduce a new character with no backstory as being much stronger than Goku because...reasons. Now Goku is going to lose against a Freeza look-a-like who is miraculously much much stronger than Freeza...because reasons. Goku loses. Ok that's fine and all. Now I know many people like Piccolo and want him to shine but his character has become a joke, inferior in every way, weak. If he wins against Frost that'll be a complete and utter joke. He couldn't even go against Freeza's henchman he isn't even better than Gohan and Gohan is a JOKE. And Vegeta is on par with Goku. How would it make sense to have Goku lose against opponents that Vegeta easily can defeat ? I'm guessing he's going to defeat at least 1 opponent. Either Vegeta or Piccolo is going to defeat Frost most likely. If it's Vegeta I'll at least be able to kind of get it they're on the same level. If it's Piccolo however...I'm now more interested in how Goku gets defeated. I hope it's because of his lack of 100% focus. It's one thing Whis has mentioned many times throughout Super and I hope it's something that'll make Goku reevalute himself which in turn could add a bit of character development.

Now if they had build Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Frost,Monaka a bit more none of this would've been an issue for me. Sh1t just happens because reasons and it's getting a bit...meh. Things do not have weight to them. Which is probably my only major issue with DBS. Partially it wants to be DB and it does it fairly well but it also tries to shy away from DBZ in certain ways and lacks impact for me. About the fights...I still insist that DB had the best fight scenes. I love a kamehameha now and then but can they tone down the effects a bit and use more martial arts choreography ? By far my favourite moment in DBS has been the one punch by Goku on Freeza. I want the fights to be more like that and less about blowing energy. It gets stale after a while.

Oh save me the theatrics. In nearly every Arc in this series, Goku saves the day. It's been a constant pattern for many years, and if someone else gets to shine a little, that shouldn't be a big deal. And when you say other characters such as Piccolo and Gohan have become a "JOKE" as you put it, name me another fighter from the original cast not named Goku or Vegeta that has been relevant so far in Super...

When other characters get into the action, it adds more suspense to the story. It adds more speculation to the story. It adds more diversity, and a better utilization of the supporting characters. Kakarot potentially losing against Frost should not mean the end, the guy has been saving the day since 1984, and seeing that someone else could win the tournament is refreshingly new. Do not get me wrong, I love Kakarot, it is just not something bad to embrace change every once in a while.

[dbzfan7]

When other characters get into the action, it adds more suspense to the story. It adds more speculation to the story. It adds more diversity, and a better utilization of the supporting characters.

I'll give you diversity, but highly disagree with everything else. I don't feel suspense, because Dragon Balls. I don't feel speculation cause Goku and now Vegeta show up is what everyone expects. Better utilization I wouldn't be too sure. I'd say cheap drama. I'm not at all feeling suspense until the most powerful are in trouble in a series like Dragon Ball. That wasn't a problem until the power gap became more and more ridiculous. My favourite comparison is Gohan from the Boo saga and ROF. Boo beating the shit out of Gohan meant something as Goku and Vegeta while stronger, are not that far above him. So if Boo can kick Gohan's ass easily, those two surely are in trouble. That builds suspense. Freeza beating the shit out of Gohan means nothing as that's not impressive anymore. Goku and Vegeta are so far above him, so that feat no longer has much meaning. So I'm not really worrying at all or feeling suspense. The only way to feel suspense in Dragon Ball is to remove the safety nets (And they added another 1 or 2 now), or make us really think there's a threat that can topple the big dogs.

[Miracles]

^ True, but this has gone to ridiculous levels. We literally have a "God" tier which no ordinary being can obtain naturally except for Freeza and Monaka's race somehow..

At least in Dragonball everyone was more or less competitive based on martial arts skills.

Vegeta did it by himself, so everybody could in the right circumstances,

Which was stupid too. He just did it with no explanation. It just sort of..happened. Same with Frost now and all the other characters. Lazy writing.

Riddle me this. Goku was ahead of everyone else bar Beerus and Whis. Then after a couple months of training Vegeta becomes on par with Goku because reasons.
Then suddenly they introduce a new character with no backstory as being much stronger than Goku because...reasons. Now Goku is going to lose against a Freeza look-a-like who is miraculously much much stronger than Freeza...because reasons. Goku loses. Ok that's fine and all. Now I know many people like Piccolo and want him to shine but his character has become a joke, inferior in every way, weak. If he wins against Frost that'll be a complete and utter joke. He couldn't even go against Freeza's henchman he isn't even better than Gohan and Gohan is a JOKE. And Vegeta is on par with Goku. How would it make sense to have Goku lose against opponents that Vegeta easily can defeat ? I'm guessing he's going to defeat at least 1 opponent. Either Vegeta or Piccolo is going to defeat Frost most likely. If it's Vegeta I'll at least be able to kind of get it they're on the same level. If it's Piccolo however...I'm now more interested in how Goku gets defeated. I hope it's because of his lack of 100% focus. It's one thing Whis has mentioned many times throughout Super and I hope it's something that'll make Goku reevalute himself which in turn could add a bit of character development.

Now if they had build Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Frost,Monaka a bit more none of this would've been an issue for me. Sh1t just happens because reasons and it's getting a bit...meh. Things do not have weight to them. Which is probably my only major issue with DBS. Partially it wants to be DB and it does it fairly well but it also tries to shy away from DBZ in certain ways and lacks impact for me.....

Uh...Dragon ball's explanations for characters power-jumping each other has always been nothing more than training, absorption, latent ability, transformations and geniuses.

[kinisking]

I'm just waiting for Gohan to be a force to be reckoned with so that I don't have to hear things like him being a joke anymore. Apparently you have to be one of the strongest to be a respectable character nowadays. *In b4 you'll be waiting a long time*

[Black_Liger]

When other characters get into the action, it adds more suspense to the story. It adds more speculation to the story. It adds more diversity, and a better utilization of the supporting characters.

I'll give you diversity, but highly disagree with everything else. I don't feel suspense, because Dragon Balls. I don't feel speculation cause Goku and now Vegeta show up is what everyone expects. Better utilization I wouldn't be too sure. I'd say cheap drama. I'm not at all feeling suspense until the most powerful are in trouble in a series like Dragon Ball. That wasn't a problem until the power gap became more and more ridiculous. My favourite comparison is Gohan from the Boo saga and ROF. Boo beating the shit out of Gohan meant something as Goku and Vegeta while stronger, are not that far above him. So if Boo can kick Gohan's ass easily, those two surely are in trouble. That builds suspense. Freeza beating the shit out of Gohan means nothing as that's not impressive anymore. Goku and Vegeta are so far above him, so that feat no longer has much meaning. So I'm not really worrying at all or feeling suspense. The only way to feel suspense in Dragon Ball is to remove the safety nets (And they added another 1 or 2 now), or make us really think there's a threat that can topple the big dogs.

Saiyan saga must have been really boring for you then D: Since the power gap between everyone and nappa was way to big.

[pacz360]

I'm just waiting for Gohan to be a force to be reckoned with so that I don't have to hear things like him being a joke anymore. Apparently you have to be one of the strongest to be a respectable character nowadays. *In b4 you'll be waiting a long time*

Cause in a sense it's true.