Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

[Ash57]

Time to discuss if Nappa was 4,000 or 7,000+! Can someone give opnions about that?

In my opinion, Nappa was 7,500. There are many points to prove that in the manga.

[dbgtFO]

I always got the impression, he was just slightly inferior to Goku, and certainly wasn't less than ½ Goku's power, only if Nappa somehow had more speed than his power would suggest, which goes against what we usually see from people with such a physique.
I take it for granted, that Toriyama made that original power level chart, that had him at 4,000, but I believe Toriyama had come up with that a good deal prior to its publication and so changed his mind later on, when he wanted to introduce the Kaio-ken in a meaningful manner, which of course wouldn't be that necessary, if Goku was constantly trouncing him.

[LightBing]

I have him at 7000.
There's just too much evidence to support him being close to Goku. The most telling to me is: him not backing down after knowing Goku was at 8000 plus. If he was just 4000 he would immediately concede and Vegeta would step in. We also know just how much they trusted the scouter numbers.
There's also Vegeta's side, he allows Nappa to give it a go. After the initial beat-down he tells him to focus, Nappa proceeds to have a even exchange with Goku and only after Goku stops Nappa's greatest attack, he decides to step in. He thought Nappa had a shot until then.

[Ash57]

I agree with the above. Nappa at 4,000 don't make sense, even Goku stated that he was fighting much better, implying some kind of control of his power. And no way that Nappa would take even a single hit from Goku at 8k with him being 4k. Recoome was one hit koed by Goku with Recoome being 45,000 - 60,000, while Goku was 90,000. My theory is that Nappa has some kind of minimum control of his power. This is implied.

[Analytic]

I'm not big on battle powers and gaps/percentages and stuff like that, but even I find a difference in power of over 2 times to be too large to justify a near-even fight. Perhaps if looking only at Nappa's performance against the Zet-Senshi and his initial performance against Son Goku (before he "powered-up") one could get the impression that his battle power is 4,000.

Not that I'm saying the 4,000 figure for Nappa is wrong. Anyone is free to believe it, I just don't agree with it.

[Ash57]

Or the entire fight with Nappa was a GAG, or Nappa is much higher than 4,000.
I prefer option 2, due to it being supported by the manga.

[Kaboom]

There's literally nothing wrong with Nappa's power level being 4,000. The manga never laid out any rules about who can do what at whatever power difference. Such limitations only exist in the minds of fans. As soon as you start saying "Character A can't do such-and-such to Character B at only X% of his power level," then you've officially started making up extra criteria that the manga, Toriyama, and everything else official never have.

Here are the only questions that need to be asked.

Q: Is 4,000 a higher PL than the strongest person Nappa beat?
A: Yes, that'd be Piccolo at 1,220/3,500.

Q: Is 4,000 a lower PL than the person who beat Nappa?
A: Yes again, that's Goku at 8,000-ish.

Then it passes the test and is perfectly valid, because those are the only actual criteria, and even they aren't 100% concrete.

Saying "Nappa can't do such-and-such at only 4,000" is drawing unnecessary conclusions about power gaps. Those power level numbers are nothing more than a measurement of raw ki, and that alone can not and does not determine the course or even outcome of fights. This isn't two stationary robots firing beams at each other — it's a clash between two characters, with very different qualities aside from just their power. Combat in a fantasy/action story can't be reduced to simply a comparison of numbers.

So all that said... can Nappa challenge or even possibly beat Goku at half his power level, because he's tough and skilled and clear-headed? Yeah, why not? Because nothing says he can't do so but made-up rules imposed upon him and his power level by fans. Learn to just let go of whatever you think you know about power level numbers and how they compare. Those "rules" are only placing undue and useless restrictions on yourself.

Of course, if you're just making up your own power level lists or something, then by all means use your own rules and give Nappa whatever level you want. But from a more objective and common sense standpoint, the notion of "Nappa can't only be 4,000 because he couldn't have done those things he did at that level because <fan-made rule>" is 100% baloney.

[Desassina]

I like numbers that we can easily relate with speech and calculation. They should be self consistent and allow us to mirror them in other situations. With that being said, the difference between Piccolo and Nappa is hard to express with multiplication, so I'd rather have him start at 5'000, which is 0.7 times less than the former. Cui was 75% of Vegeta's power in Namek, and if his Ki of courage didn't drop, then their difference was close enough to Piccolo and Nappa's. Goku being 1.6 times higher than Nappa is very close to how the characters owned the others in my previous power level lists, but Nappa could have increased to 5'600 once he got his act together (and guess what: it's 0.7 times more than Goku's power).

[Tyro]

If we're going to get into it, I think the manga makes it pretty clear that a 2x gap in battle ability is enough to be able to reliably dominate your opponent. Go-to examples are Piccolo Daimao (old) vs. Goku, Goku vs. Recoom, Butta and Jheese, Goku (Kaio-ken) vs. Ginyu, Future #17 vs. Gohan.

So I think it's impossible for Nappa to have a battle power of 4,000 and keep up with Goku at 8,000. That's how strong he came off when he fought everyone before Goku. His real battle power that he demonstrated to Goku at the very end was probably in the 7,000s (my guess).

[Ash57]

We use manga trends in order to make our own arguments, we don't make rules.
And manga patterns stop Nappa from being 4,000, simple as that.

[Desassina]

We use manga trends in order to make our own arguments

This post is one rule to ignore, given the irony of setting Nappa's power close to Goku with such an arbitrary rule in itself. There's not a set percentage that determines who's winning, and because of such axiom, you can only speculate their difference in power. And please, let's use the whole franchise, not just what the manga lovers want it to be.

[Kaboom]

We use manga trends in order to make our own arguments, we don't make rules.
And manga patterns stop Nappa from being 4,000, simple as that.

Even if it's based on an observable "pattern," as soon as you say something like the bolded part, intentionally or not you've inherently turned that pattern into a "rule." Which is something the manga, Toriyama himself, and the guidebooks never did. All they had was fights with numbers attached to them, and never said "this represents what will always happen with such power proportions." Such a thing is a fan-concoction that nothing else is obligated to follow.

So I'll state the facts once again: There is no inherent problem with Nappa's PL of 4,000. Fans only create a problem with it by creating rules for it to break in the first place.



As an afterthought... I seem to recall Toriyama saying something recently about Saiyans getting stronger as a fight progresses. Don't think Nappa's strong enough to do it at 4,000? BAM, there's your potential solution right there. Nappa's durability could let him last long enough to eventually pull out the strength to defeat Goku, but the large power difference means it'd take too long. Ta-da?

[Ash57]

We use manga trends in order to make our own arguments, we don't make rules.
And manga patterns stop Nappa from being 4,000, simple as that.

Even if it's based on an observable "pattern," as soon as you say something like the bolded part, intentionally or not you've inherently turned that pattern into a "rule." Which is something the manga, Toriyama himself, and the guidebooks never did. All they had was numbers with fights attached to them, and never said "this represents what will always happen with such power proportions." Such a thing is a fan-concoction that nothing else is obligated to follow.

So I'll state the facts once again: There is no inherent problem with Nappa's PL of 4,000. Fans only create a problem with it by creating rules for it to break in the first place.



As an afterthought... I seem to recall Toriyama saying something recently about Saiyans getting stronger as a fight progresses. Don't think Nappa's strong enough to do it at 4,000? BAM, there's your potential solution right there. Nappa's durability could let him last long enough to eventually pull out the strength to defeat Goku, but the large power means it'd take too long. Ta-da?

Recoome was one hit koed by Goku with supposedly the same gap. Let's remember that Recoome is a tank too, proved by his fight with Vegeta. The durability argument don't work considering the manga.

Nappa is close to Goku. You forget that when you say "there is no rules" you're making a rule yourself. Toriyama could have very well set a rule, but we don't know about it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

While I can see where Kaboom is coming from, I also can see why people think Nappa is higher than that.

Even though Goku's new power was acknowledged, I think Krillin's quote establishes that Goku could still be less than Nappa:

Krillin: "That's insane!! Even for you! Their power is beyond imagination!!"
Gohan: "H-he's right, Daddy!!"

It's referring to both Saiyans, but the emphasis would be on Nappa considering he's the only one who fought.

Nappa freaked out over the 5k Battle Power, but that doesn't have to mean he's less than that. Goku's ridiculous growth in power would be enough to garner that attention from anyone. The main issue was Goku potentially being more powerful than the initial reading combined with the others. Vegeta didn't seem the least bit worried about Nappa fighting Goku, and actually thinks Goku is silly for challenging them. Arrogance? Possibly. Still, I don't think Vegeta would be one to think Nappa had a real chance at winning if he was that outmatched. If anyone knows Nappa's power, it's Vegeta.

Durability is one thing, but you still need power to win. Vegeta's still very much a space pirate that goes by numbers at this point of the series.

[Ash57]

Thank gawd Super Saiyan Turlast 4.

[Kaboom]

Toriyama could have very well set a rule, but we don't know about it.

Well until he says so, then the fact of the matter remain the same: Nappa's 4,000 is valid, and only fans say it isn't. No two ways about it.

[Ash57]

Toriyama could have very well set a rule, but we don't know about it.

Well until he says so, then the fact of the matter remain the same: Nappa's 4,000 is valid, and only fans say it isn't. No two ways about it.

But these fans do have valid arguments. You're trying to discredit the arguments saying that fans use fan-made rules to support it. Toriyama left obvious that a power of 500 can't beat a power of 1,000 because the distance between them is too big. I want you to me show an example where a character wins against a 2x stronger opponent. There aren't. Using you're logic, i say that Buuhan = Whis. The distance between them is too big, but it's fan-made to say that it isn't valid to have Buuhan = Whis

[Kaboom]

I want you to me show an example where a character wins against a 2x stronger opponent.

I'll do one better. Piccolo won against an opponent almost four times stronger than himself, through a combination of backup and an extremely potent technique.

Now in turn, I'd like you or anyone else to point to a direct statement from the manga, guidebooks, Toriyama, anything with official clout... that says plainly "a fighter half as strong as his opponent has no chance of winning." NOT referring to any specific character or fight, but a general statement that establishes "this will ALWAYS be the case for EVERY fight." Because that's the logic of the fan-made "rule" at play, which is the only thing (not) preventing Nappa from having a PL of 4,000.

When you say, "I don't think Nappa should be at 4,000 because <stuff from the manga>," then you have a perfectly valid theory, one which you are entirely free to apply to your own lists or hypothetical discussions or whatever. Cheers.

But when you say, "Nappa can't be at 4,000 because <whatever>," and then claim that anything saying so is flawed... then you are trying to treat your theory as fact and turn it into some universal rule. Which is total baloney.

Well like it or not, there are no such rules. Nappa's PL of 4,000 is perfectly valid.

[Ash57]

I want you to me show an example where a character wins against a 2x stronger opponent.

I'll do one better. Piccolo won against an opponent almost four times stronger than himself, through a combination of backup and an extremely potent technique.

Now in turn, I'd like you or anyone else to point to a direct statement from the manga, guidebooks, Toriyama, anything with official clout... that says plainly "a fighter half as strong as his opponent has no chance of winning." NOT referring to any specific character or fight, but a general statement that establishes "this will ALWAYS be the case for EVERY fight." Because that's the logic of the fan-made "rule" at play, which is the only thing (not) preventing Nappa from having a PL of 4,000.

When you say, "I don't think Nappa should be at 4,000 because <stuff from the manga>," then you have a perfectly valid theory, one which you are entirely free to apply to your own lists or hypothetical discussions or whatever. But when you say, "Nappa can't be at 4,000 because <whatever>," then you are trying to treat your theory as fact and turn it into some universal rule. Which is total baloney.

Well like it or not, there are no such rules. Nappa's PL of 4,000 is perfectly valid.

When Piccolo won against someone 4x him?

[Kaboom]

I remembered something Toriyama said recently which may render the entire "debate" even more moot than it already is. Not only are power level gap rules baloney in general, but it seems they're a little extra baloney when it comes to Saiyans:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -toriyama/

"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."

This seems to apply perfectly to Nappa vs Goku to me.

When Piccolo won against someone 4x him?

Against Raditz, of course. His PL of 408 won against a PL of 1,500 thanks to backup (Goku and Gohan) and being amplified by a potent technique (the Makankosappo). Which shouldn't have been possible if some proportional comparison of starting powers was all that mattered in a fight.

In the same way, Nappa (4,000) had a chance at beating Goku (8,000) by means of his "toughness" letting the fight be prolonged enough that his strength would gradually catch up to Goku's. Heck, maybe it was already starting to, since his mouth-blast ultimate attack presumably could have hurt Goku.

This shiz is so freakin' easy as soon as you let go of all the "but A is only X% of B so he can't do Y" nonsense.