Cell Saga Vegeta

[Kamiccolo9]

I wasn't replying to you.

[Gorou]

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was to have personal satisfaction.

[Kamiccolo9]

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was having personal satisfaction.

Personal goals and stupidity are not mutually exclusive either. If my goal is to learn to fly, and I jump out of a bunch of windows for practice, it still makes me an idiot, regardless of how much I want to fly.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, clearly I am in the minority, at least as far as this thread is concerned. Oh, well! I still don't see it. I'm not saying goading Freeza into transforming ended up doing much good for them. And Freeza did certainly become much stronger than Vegeta had anticipated. But my point is that it was the inevitable thing for them, and there was no point screwing around with anything else. Rereboy mentioned it would have been smarter to stop him from transforming. To that I ask, how? Because Freeza transforms two more times after that, and by that point, the heroes do know it would probably be in their best interest to stop him. And yet they never do. So how do we look at that? Are they all just as much to blame as Vegeta supposedly is? Do we accept that transforming is a free action? Or do we assume there is simply they could have done to stop him? At this point, about the only benefit of fighting Freeza in his first-form would be to be in a more manageable position to be beaten-up and resuscitated by Dende, so that he can get more power boosts prior to having to fight the transformations. But since Vegeta does not know that's an option, there is no reason for him to waste his energy fighting a pointless battle only to have to fight the main battle on half strength.

Regardless of whether you think the Freeza decision was good, bad, or indifferent, I still don't see how the Cell decision is anything but unequivocally worse. The only thing it has going for it is that Vegeta was in a better position to start with. The fact of the matter is, he WANTS Cell to get stronger than him because that's what he tells Trunks. Cell is playing Vegeta, and Vegeta admits he knows this! Vegeta underestimates Freeza, to be sure. His bravado is definitely on display. But there's nothing on display to the level of sheer arrogance and stupidity he displays against Cell. Well, at least not until he gets into the Boo arc, but that's another discussion for another day...

[rereboy]

I wasn't replying to you.

You were replying to Gorou who had basically agreed with what I had said before about arrogance. In which I was careful to say it "more arrogance and miscalculations than it is stupidity".

[Gorou]

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was having personal satisfaction.

Personal goals and stupidity are not mutually exclusive either. If my goal is to learn to fly, and I jump out of a bunch of windows for practice, it still makes me an idiot, regardless of how much I want to fly.

Very bad example, because anyone is fully conscious of not being able to fly without technological devices. The act of throwing himself from a window for groped to fly does not have the minimum chance of success, so it's just stupid. In this case, there was not the slightest assurance that Cell would have outclassed him, much to humiliate. Moreover he had a secret weapon tremendously powerful.

[Kamiccolo9]

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was having personal satisfaction.

Personal goals and stupidity are not mutually exclusive either. If my goal is to learn to fly, and I jump out of a bunch of windows for practice, it still makes me an idiot, regardless of how much I want to fly.

Pressing example, because anyone is fully conscious of not being able to fly without technological devices. The act of throwing himself from a window for groped to fly does not have the slightest chance of success, so it's just stupid. In this case, there was not the slightest assurance that Cell would have outclassed him, much to humiliate. Moreover he had a secret weapon tremendously powerful.

And the act of letting someone that wants to kill you vet stronger than you, with said person actually telling you that he would for sure be stronger, just so that you can show off is the epitome of arrogance and stupidity. This is Gotenks-level stupid.

[Gorou]

Regardless of whether you think the Freeza decision was good, bad, or indifferent, I still don't see how the Cell decision is anything but unequivocally worse. The only thing it has going for it is that Vegeta was in a better position to start with. The fact of the matter is, he WANTS Cell to get stronger than him because that's what he tells Trunks. Cell is playing Vegeta, and Vegeta admits he knows this! Vegeta underestimates Freeza, to be sure. His bravado is definitely on display. But there's nothing on display to the level of sheer arrogance and stupidity he displays against Cell. Well, at least not until he gets into the Boo arc, but that's another discussion for another day...

This that you exposes is a mitigating factor, but it does not nullify the stupidity of the act: Freeza at that time was not willing to trasform and instigate to do so is still a very poor smart move, considering that there was a little (albeit meager) possibility that Freeza would sin of presumption and remain in that form, ask him to trasform for sure would not bring any benefit, quite the contrary.
The transformation Freezer would worsen his situation at 100%.. He could have acted in many ways: he could have hit him with kiezan while transforming (first example that comes to mind). Everything is made even more stupid if we analyze his goals, in the entire saga: he just wanted to defeat Freeza, and was not looking for any challenge.
With Cell, what guaranteed with absolute certainty that he would have outclassed him ?? None. For all he knew, Cell could become maximum as strong as him. And he knew nothing about Cell's regenerative ability.

[rereboy]

Vegeta simply didn't believe that Cell would improve that much. #18 was a weakling to him, and so was semi-perfect Cell. So the joining of the two didn't seem much to him. He probably even doubted that Perfect Cell would be a challenge.

Not taking the safest action, taking the risk of what might happen if he happens to be wrong, is stupid, but it's arrogant-miscalculating-stupidity. At least we understand the cause of his thinking. Regarding Freeza, it was more like stupidity-stupidity, since Vegeta couldn't even take on his weaker form with much success.

Btw, Cell was also pretty arrogant when he took Vegeta's Final Flash. The difference is that that mistake didn't had severe/lasting consequences.

[Gorou]

And the act of letting someone that wants to kill you vet stronger than you, with said person actually telling you that he would for sure be stronger, just so that you can show off is the epitome of arrogance and stupidity. This is Gotenks-level stupid.

And again, what it guaranteed? Except from the ravings of Cell (very arrogant and confident of his own) on the strength of his perfect body, what made absolutely clear that would reach a level so hight, so much to outclass not only its stage, but also the FP stage?

[Kamiccolo9]

And the act of letting someone that wants to kill you vet stronger than you, with said person actually telling you that he would for sure be stronger, just so that you can show off is the epitome of arrogance and stupidity. This is Gotenks-level stupid.

And again, what it guaranteed? Apart from the ravings of Cell (very arrogant and confident of his own) on the strength of his perfect body, what made absolutely clear that would reach a level so higth, so much to outperform not only its stage, but also the FP stage?

Nothing is guaranteed. That's the point. Taking huge unnecessary risks just to stroke your own ego is stupid. I don't see what is so hard to understand here. Likewise, Cell was stupid in tanking the Final Flash. And Goku was stupid I not telling Gohan his plans. And Gohan was stupid in not killing Cell.

The idiot ball is passed around so much in the Cell Arc that they had to bring in a replacement.

[rereboy]

I don't think that anyone is really denying that the action can be considered stupid. Just that it has its justification in a character flaw, namely arrogance, which is coherent in Vegeta's character.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think that anyone is really denying that the action can be considered stupid. Just that it has its justification in a character flaw, namely arrogance, which is coherent in Vegeta's character.

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was having personal satisfaction.

[Gorou]

Nothing is guaranteed.

So we do not talk about stupidity, which has another meaning.
There is talk of an estimation error.
A character should not necessarily act in the absolutely most logical way (when ever they did, in the manga?), like a robot, but depending on his personality and his goals, otherwise it is only incoherent with its path.

That's the point. Taking huge unnecessary risks just to stroke your own ego is stupid.

Based on the information he had, the risks were minimal.

Cell was stupid in tanking the Final Flash

Not so much, because he can regenerate (he could dodge at the last to prevent extensive damage, as it seems to have done).

And Goku was stupid I not telling Gohan his plans

Gohan he quickly realized his plan

And Gohan was stupid in not killing Cell

Agree with this.

The idiot ball is passed around so much in the Cell Arc that they had to bring in a replacement.

If they used, always, their brains, they would have avoided in the first place the entire Saiyan saga.

[Kamiccolo9]

Again, they can be in character and still be stupid.

[Gorou]

Point of view.
Objectively, from his point of view, it was not so. He had a few good reasons, even logical, to proceed.

[rereboy]

I don't think that anyone is really denying that the action can be considered stupid. Just that it has its justification in a character flaw, namely arrogance, which is coherent in Vegeta's character.

There is not stupidity because the main goal of Vegeta, in that moment, was having personal satisfaction.

Yes, I think that what he is saying is that he doesn't consider that to be real stupidity because it's justified by the arrogance of his character and is coherent.

Meaning that there's an understandable logic to Vegeta's actions and a reason that we can comprehend in light of his character for taking the risk.

In short, that Vegeta values more the chance to get a challenge that will make him have an hard-won fight than the risk of being wrong and begin defeated. It becomes more a matter of his priorities than of his intelligence.

Stupidity can be defined as a lack of intelligence. But Vegeta didn't exactly exhibit a lack of intelligence, only a set of priorities that made him value more the chance of getting a real challenge than the risk of miscalculating and being defeated.

However, stupidity can also be defined more broadly, as anything foolish can be considered stupid. In this sense, taking any kind of risk can be considered stupid because it can be considered foolish. Someone not foolish should know better and not take risks. But, like I said, this is stupidity in a broad sense, that doesn't relate to stupidity as lack of intelligence, which is the more proper meaning for the term.

So, yeah, his actions can be considered foolish, and thus stupid, but what I think is being said is that it's not real stupidity. It might be foolish, but its not because of lack of intelligence, it's because of different priorities. Gorou seems to be referring to stupidity only in that sense.

To give you a relevant example, a man can often be foolish out of love or out of optimism and trust, while someone who doesn't love or trust or that is a pessimist wouldn't take any risk, any chances, and thus would never be foolish because of that. But can we really call the people who do, stupid? Some call it that, but many/most don't. Usually stupid as in foolish is only reserved to negative things, not positive things, like love, trust and so on. This alone should demonstrate how improperly the term "stupid" is used.

[apex_pretador]

what has this thread turned into? a debate about the usage of word "stupid"?

anyways

Even when fighting the final form of Freezer, it reveals his arrogance, attacking alone..

No one else could've done anything at this point , not even piccolo (except an off-guard hit maybe)

See, I disagree. I've never thought Vegeta's decision to taunt Freeza into transforming was anything but logical. And that's because Vegeta and I are on the same page in regards to what's wrong with the Freeza fight in general: everything before the endgame is pointless because Freeza can transform at will, unlike Cell or Boo. And that means that, unless you get really lucky and manage to kill him instantly, whenever Freeza feels threatened, he's just going to transform anyway, making all of your previous efforts useless... which is exactly what he ends up doing. So Vegeta just doesn't want to waste his time or his energy, and I can't say I blame him. I just wish Vegeta had known Freeza had four forms. Maybe we could have skipped the rest of that crap too. =P

In the first form, freeza was already "incredibly very powerful" as compared to vegeta & kids.
They were like ants to freeza, he could've beaten them without a lot of trouble.

Then vegeta says - "you're gonna transform anyways, so do it now" , making their chances from like 10% to 1% or so. Why not try to kill him as he's now, like even that isn't easy.
If he hadn't let him transform, I bet piccolo'd have killed him easily.

[Gorou]

To give you a relevant example, a man can often be foolish out of love or out of optimism and trust, while someone who doesn't love or trust or that is a pessimist wouldn't take any risk, any chances, and thus would never be foolish because of that. But can we really call the people who do, stupid? Some call it that, but many/most don't. Usually stupid as in foolish is only reserved to negative things, not positive things, like love, trust and so on. This alone should demonstrate how improperly the term "stupid" is used.

Agreed
Traits like love (Krillin is another example), selfishness and fallibility, just make the characters more credible, more true, more "humans". Toriyama does not build his characters at random. Mirai Trunks really acts like a true hero, in a logical and unselfish way, and this approach derives from her past tragic experiences.

But it would have been much nicer if he even showed us the guilt and the remorse that these characters would have, for their decisions (Including Goku). The only true repentance that we see is to Gohan

No one else could've done anything at this point , not even piccolo (except an off-guard hit maybe)

Right, but it was better to act alone. By his own admission the Terrans are full of resources. Even then, he did not choose the most absolute logical way (no one has ever done in the manga).

[Gaffer Tape]

In the first form, freeza was already "incredibly very powerful" as compared to vegeta & kids.
They were like ants to freeza, he could've beaten them without a lot of trouble.

Then vegeta says - "you're gonna transform anyways, so do it now" , making their chances from like 10% to 1% or so. Why not try to kill him as he's now, like even that isn't easy.
If he hadn't let him transform, I bet piccolo'd have killed him easily.

Why not try to kill him now? Well, I've already explained that. Like you said, their chances of beating first form Freeza were already pretty low. Now if by some miracle, they did manage to wear him down? Well, Freeza would just transform to save himself, making the whole thing pointless, except even worse because now Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta would be worn out having fought first form Freeza, putting them in an even worse position to fight a transformed Freeza. And Piccolo? That idea hinges on them knowing that Piccolo would come across a wounded Namekian who would give him a ridiculously large power boost, something none of them could have predicted. Without that, Piccolo would probably have been the weakest one there and would have ended up even more useless than he ended up being in the actual story.