Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lionel]

Keep in mind that Frost was apparently unable to wrestle free of Piccolo's elongated makeshift limb rope. He needed to resort to prickling with a toxin in order to escape. This is similar to Goku being ensnared by the Merry-Go-Round Gum. It required the regrowth of his tail and power being brought up to its maximum level at the time for him to break free. Piccolo must not be that far away from exhausted Frost if he's able to accomplish such a feat.

I would estimate the gap to be roughly the same as the one that existed between Giran and tailless Goku. It exists, but it's not too large and Piccolo can react to attacks.

[namekiansaiyan]

Keep in mind that Frost was apparently unable to wrestle free of Piccolo's elongated makeshift limb rope. He needed to resort to prickling with a toxin in order to escape. This is similar to Goku being ensnared by the Merry-Go-Round Gum. It required the regrowth of his tail and power being brought up to its maximum level at the time for him to break free. Piccolo must not be that far away from exhausted Frost if he's able to accomplish such a feat.

I would estimate the gap to be roughly the same as the one that existed between Giran and tailless Goku. It exists, but it's not too large and Piccolo can react to attacks.

I think Frost's powerful level is slightly above Piccolo's but Piccolo's attacks are stronger as evidenced by his Special Beam Cannon which would have probably killed Frost.

[Bullza]

There's literally nothing suggesting Goku can alternate between two base powers. He also never fought Beerus in base in this continuity.

If a Zarbon level fighter can reach Buu level in 4 months then I see nothing wrong with Piccolo and Gohan reaching base Goku in double the time.

And again nothing was said at all to suggest that Piccolo had grown drastically more powerful. He went from being that weak to stronger than Final Form Frieza and nobody has anything to say on the matter? At all?

There was nothing to say that Tagoma couldn't have had a huge increase because we know nothing about him. Piccolo has been training his entire life and then he suddenly gets possibly dozens of times stronger in 8 months?

Nah I doubt it.

Tagoma also likely isn't Buu level either. Piccolo was likely equal to him without the weights.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Champa himself said he would be embarrassed if the dome broke in the tournament and of course he could brake it but he would have to make an effort since he couldn't do it casually.

A non god tier attack will not brake the dome.

It wasn't a normal attack, it was a piercing attack. Unless if you want to imply that Kuririn was near 2nd Form Freeza's level in Freeza arc.

[Bullza]

The Tier list as of episode 34:

Beyond God tier: Vados & Whis.
God tier 1: Beerus & Champa.
God tier 2: Monaka.
God tier 3: SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta(Champa arc) & Golden Freeza.
God tier 4: SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta(RoF arc), SBG Goku & SBG Vegeta(Champa arc).
God tier 5: SBG Goku, SBG Vegeta(RoF arc) & SSG Goku.
God tier 6: Final Form Freeza.
God tier 7: 10% Beerus.

Scrub tier 1: SS1 Goku & SS1 Vegeta(Champa arc).
Scrub tier 2: Final Form Frost.
Scrub tier 3: Base Goku(Champa arc) & Assault Form Frost.
Scrub tier 4: First Form Frost.
Scrub tier 5: Botamo & Piccolo(Champa arc).

No way Piccolo's anywhere near the God levels.
The case simply must be: Base < SS <<<<<<<<<<<<<< SSG/SBG < SSGSS.

Yeah I like this, I'd say this is about right. I'd possibly have SSG Goku above SBG Goku though but that's a different subject altogether and Piccolo should probably be on scrub tier 3 but otherwise it's what I'd have it at.

At a guess I'd put Final Form Frost on about the same tier as First Form Frieza (RoF).

[LowRyder2005]

More than Piccolo being on the level of the gods, I think it's almost self-evident now Frost and Botamo are most likely Z-level. If Goku fighting in base and then as a Super Saiyan wasn't enough of a hint now we have Piccolo and Frost in roughly the same tier.

Super Saiyan Blue Goku = most likely a hundred of times, if not hundreds of time stronger and more
Piccolo and Super Saiyan Goku = around Super Perfect Cell level
Frost = around Perfect Cell level

Tagoma would have probably met his demise if Gotenks didn't defuse, but Goten and Trunks didn't fight him head-on. He curbstomps a Gohan who's most likely slightly stronger or even weaker than them. I'd say he possibly is in-between the androids and Perfect Cell, with Ginyu making him 20% or even 50% stronger. Buu to me is still in a league of his own.

I agree whole-heartedly that a "Z-scale" and a "Super/God-scale" need to be separated.

[ZombieVito]

There hasn't been a single comment about Goku having two base powers.

[LowRyder2005]

There hasn't been a single comment about Goku having two base powers.

And there isn't a single comment saying he can't have those "two base powers" - or much rather, that he can now freely control normal and God ki and his power output, as well. He mastered the form after all.

Besides, confront his fight with Botamo and his fight as a Saiyan Beyond God against Freeza, does it seem to you he's fighting at the same level? The coreography, visuals, or even the story heavily suggest he is almost play fighting against Botamo and fighting at a whole different level in another.
If Goku against Freeza is 100, he may be 1 against Botamo... which is the same as having "two base powers", or rather, "controlling his ki to contain his base powers"... which is really what the series has always been about since the Saiyan saga.

[Bullza]

There hasn't been a single comment about Goku having two base powers.

He has two Super Saiyan powers.

SBG Goku turns Super Saiyan and he comes out blue.

Goku turns Super Saiyan and he comes out Yellow.

[LowRyder2005]

I think the main issue here, for Zombie and others, is wheter you want to accept that the Super Saiyan seen at the end of the fight with Beerus is the same we see here or not.

However, we do know one thing for a fact: that particular Super Saiyan (appeared against Beerus) is supposed to be equal to the Super Saiyan God, while the Saiyan Beyond God - a.k.a. a Saiyan who has mastered God ki and his using his full "base power" - is still stronger (cfr. characters' statements here and there in the fact checker thread).

If this Goku is, again, a "Saiyan Beyond God" he shouldn't in theory have been treated as having powered up considerably when going Super Saiyan (because, Super Saiyan post-God < Saiyan Beyond God)... therefore, especially if we give Frost the same kind of power ups a non-Golden Freeza has, it makes sense to say that both him and Goku are fighting at a level around the high end of the Android Saga.

This is reinforced by Piccolo's feats so far: he is supposed to be stronger than what he was in the beginning of Super, but most likely still below Good Buu... who was still Goku and Vegeta's first choice for their team (and who almost certainly didn't get stronger). If we go by the assumption that "Monaka > Goku ~ Vegeta > Good Buu > Piccolo" and "Piccolo ~ Frost", "Frost ~ [Super?] Perfect Cell", the theory sounds somewhat coherent.

[ZombieVito]

I guess it's pointless to argue right now. We will just have to wait for them to explain it in the Goku and Vegeta show or in some of it's guides.

[namekiansaiyan]

I think the main issue here, for Zombie and others, is wheter you want to accept that the Super Saiyan seen at the end of the fight with Beerus is the same we see here or not.

However, we do know one thing for a fact: that particular Super Saiyan (appeared against Beerus) is supposed to be equal to the Super Saiyan God, while the Saiyan Beyond God - a.k.a. a Saiyan who has mastered God ki and his using his full "base power" - is still in the same ballpark of slightly stronger (cfr. characters' statements here and there in the fact checker thread).

If this Goku is, again, a "Saiyan Beyond God" he shouldn't in theory have been treated as having powered up considerably when going Super Saiyan (because, Super Saiyan post-God <= Saiyan Beyond God, or at most slightly weaker)... therefore, especially if we give Frost the same kind of power ups a non-Golden Freeza has, it makes sense to say that both him and Goku are fighting at a level around the high end of the Android Saga.

This is reinforced by Piccolo's feats so far: he is supposed to be stronger than what he was in the beginning of Super, but most likely still below Good Buu... who was still Goku and Vegeta's first choice for their team (and who almost certainly didn't get stronger). If we go by the assumption that "Monaka > Goku ~ Vegeta > Good Buu > Piccolo" and "Piccolo ~ Frost", "Frost ~ [Super?] Perfect Cell", the theory sounds somewhat coherent.

Wasn't Goku fighting at his max versus Frost, why cant Goku at super saiyan now be his strongest form
Vegeta is going super saiyan in the next episode and the next episode says he uses full his power.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't think it's that obscure: again, regarding Piccolo's power you can about guess it by making a direct comparison to Buu's own power. Buu is immediately referenced as a more preferable choice than Piccolo by both Goku and Vegeta, and just one week before the tournament starts.

Moreover, while it is true that Goku and Vegeta may have not been aware of some gigantic leap on Piccolo's part, they'd have most likely addressed it by the time they had met with Piccolo or during his fight with Frost; the usual "oh, hey, you are incredible now". And I doubt they'd have freaked out so much when Buu was unable to compete (I mean, it'd be like "Goku, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin are in a Cell Game and Krillin is unable to compete"... no big deal, right?); that alone, in their eyes, meant he was still an important asset to their team.

Like I said a couple of weeks ago, Piccolo would have set the bar for the fighters we have seen so far. They are "weak", at least by Super's standards so far. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

This, in turn, puts the Goku we have seen so far fighting at a level far below what Super has showed so far. Whatever you want to see it as "having multiple base powers", "using his God ki before and not now", or "controlling his ki to achieve the desidered effect" is the same, I suppose.

Wasn't Goku fighting at his max versus Frost, why cant Goku at super saiyan now be his strongest form
Vegeta is going super saiyan in the next episode and the next episode says he uses full his power.

Short answer: I believe that if we try to implement the train of thought I inserted above, the end result is "he isn't using his strongest form because Piccolo is in the same tier of a character who is most likely weaker than Good Buu".
Unless you want to think Mr. Buu has been training and has reached the Gods' level himself, or that Piccolo trained in secret achieving the same result and Goku and Vegeta didn't even bother commenting. Or that the Saiyan Beyond God is supposed to still be above the Yellow Super Saiyan (in the Resurrection F saga they say Goku is "stronger than ever before"), yet people act like Goku is substantially stronger in the second form compared to the first.

[namekiansaiyan]

I don't think it's that obscure: again, regarding Piccolo's power you can about guess it by making a direct comparison to Buu's own power. Buu is immediately referenced as a more preferable choice than Piccolo by both Goku and Vegeta, and just one week before the tournament starts.

Moreover, while it is true that Goku and Vegeta may have not been aware of some gigantic leap on Piccolo's part, they'd have most likely addressed it by the time they had met with Piccolo or during his fight with Frost; the usual "oh, hey, you are incredible now". And I doubt they'd have freaked out so much when Buu was unable to compete (I mean, it'd be like "Goku, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin are in a Cell Game and Krillin is unable to compete"... no big deal, right?); that alone, in their eyes, meant he was still an important asset to their team.

Like I said a couple of weeks ago, Piccolo would have set the bar for the fighters we have seen so far. They are "weak", at least by Super's standards so far. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

This, in turn, puts the Goku we have seen so far fighting at a level far below what Super has showed so far. Whatever you want to see it as "having multiple base powers", "using his God ki before and not now", or "controlling his ki to achieve the desidered effect" is the same, I suppose.

Wasn't Goku fighting at his max versus Frost, why cant Goku at super saiyan now be his strongest form
Vegeta is going super saiyan in the next episode and the next episode says he uses full his power.

Short answer: I believe that if we try to implement the train of thought I inserted above, the end result is "he isn't using his strongest form because Piccolo is in the same tier of a character who is most likely weaker than Good Buu".
Unless you want to think Mr. Buu has been training and has reached the Gods' level himself, or that Piccolo trained in secret and Goku and Vegeta didn't even bother commenting. Or that the Saiyan Beyond God is supposed to still be above the Yellow Super Saiyan (in the Resurrection F saga they say Goku is "stronger than ever before"), yet people act like Goku is substantially stronger in the second form compared to the first.

With Piccolo all you have to do is look at his fight with Frost he was going to win easily and his Special Beam Cannon destroyed the dome and would have killed Frost.

[buutenks]

Why would goku have 2 different base powers?

The simplest is assault form frost is close to base goku who is a bit stronger than his ssj god self when he fought beerus,final form frost is above that but below ssj goku and ssj blue is stronger.

Why the need for 2 different base powers?

Also why would goku use ssj when he can 'switch' to his saiyan beyond god base and become thousand of times more powerful than his ssj1 level(aka fp perfect cell level or spc your pick).

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now. Goku was in base form and the only think beerus has to compare is goku's former god power absorbed self back in BOG arc.

So in ROF base goku>ssj god goku from bog arc.

And i see no reason why the champa arc base goku would have a different power,infact he would proly be a little bit stronger.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't think it's that obscure: again, regarding Piccolo's power you can about guess it by making a direct comparison to Buu's own power. Buu is immediately referenced as a more preferable choice than Piccolo by both Goku and Vegeta, and just one week before the tournament starts.

Moreover, while it is true that Goku and Vegeta may have not been aware of some gigantic leap on Piccolo's part, they'd have most likely addressed it by the time they had met with Piccolo or during his fight with Frost; the usual "oh, hey, you are incredible now". And I doubt they'd have freaked out so much when Buu was unable to compete (I mean, it'd be like "Goku, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta and Krillin are in a Cell Game and Krillin is unable to compete"... no big deal, right?); that alone, in their eyes, meant he was still an important asset to their team.

Like I said a couple of weeks ago, Piccolo would have set the bar for the fighters we have seen so far. They are "weak", at least by Super's standards so far. Not that it is necessarily a bad thing.

This, in turn, puts the Goku we have seen so far fighting at a level far below what Super has showed so far. Whatever you want to see it as "having multiple base powers", "using his God ki before and not now", or "controlling his ki to achieve the desidered effect" is the same, I suppose.

Wasn't Goku fighting at his max versus Frost, why cant Goku at super saiyan now be his strongest form
Vegeta is going super saiyan in the next episode and the next episode says he uses full his power.

Short answer: I believe that if we try to implement the train of thought I inserted above, the end result is "he isn't using his strongest form because Piccolo is in the same tier of a character who is most likely weaker than Good Buu".
Unless you want to think Mr. Buu has been training and has reached the Gods' level himself, or that Piccolo trained in secret and Goku and Vegeta didn't even bother commenting. Or that the Saiyan Beyond God is supposed to still be above the Yellow Super Saiyan (in the Resurrection F saga they say Goku is "stronger than ever before"), yet people act like Goku is substantially stronger in the second form compared to the first.

With Piccolo all you have to do is look at his fight with Frost he was going to win easily and his Special Beam Cannon destroyed the dome and would have killed Frost.

All the more reason Frost should be below Good Buu, then, reinforcing the "Goku isn't fighting at his strongest [form]".

[LowRyder2005]

Why would goku have 2 different base powers?

The simplest is assault form frost is close to base goku who is a bit stronger than his ssj god self when he fought beerus,final form frost is above that but below ssj goku and ssj blue is stronger.

Why the need for 2 different base powers?

Also why would goku use ssj when he can 'switch' to his saiyan beyond god base and become thousand of times more powerful than his ssj1 level(aka fp perfect cell level or spc your pick).

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now. Goku was in base form and the only think beerus has to compare is goku's former god power absorbed self back in BOG arc.

First off, you are overthinking this: Goku has always been able to manipulate ki and control his power. Now, would you say he had a million different power levels? It's just a matter of wording, here. Saying he has "two base powers" is just the same as saying "he can control ki to raise or lower his power to appear stronger or weaker at two different points in time".

Secondly, Good Buu is in turn threated by Goku and Vegeta like he is still above Piccolo and nothing so far suggests the contrary or that they had underestimated Piccolo himself. We now know, in addition, that Piccolo is equal or stronger than Frost.
This alone should disprove "the Super Saiyan we have seen against Frost is in the same league of Beerus" theory; unless, again, Goku was heavily suppressing himself even while using that form.

[buutenks]

Why would goku have 2 different base powers?

The simplest is assault form frost is close to base goku who is a bit stronger than his ssj god self when he fought beerus,final form frost is above that but below ssj goku and ssj blue is stronger.

Why the need for 2 different base powers?

Also why would goku use ssj when he can 'switch' to his saiyan beyond god base and become thousand of times more powerful than his ssj1 level(aka fp perfect cell level or spc your pick).

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now. Goku was in base form and the only think beerus has to compare is goku's former god power absorbed self back in BOG arc.

First off, you are overthinking this: Goku has always been able to manipulate ki and control his power. Now, would you say he had a million different power levels? It's just a matter of wording, here. Saying he has "two base powers" is just the same as saying "he can control ki to raise or lower his power to appear stronger or weaker at two different points in time".

Secondly, Good Buu is in turn threated by Goku and Vegeta like he is still above Piccolo and nothing so far suggests the contrary or that they had underestimated Piccolo himself. We now know, in addition, that Piccolo is equal or stronger than Frost.
This alone should disprove "the Super Saiyan we have seen against Frost is in the same league of Beerus" theory; unless, again, Goku was heavily suppressing himself even while using that form.

Obviously goku can control his ki.

While goku tends to hold back, it makes no sense for him to use ssj if his base max power would be far beyond frost's max.

[LowRyder2005]

Why would goku have 2 different base powers?

The simplest is assault form frost is close to base goku who is a bit stronger than his ssj god self when he fought beerus,final form frost is above that but below ssj goku and ssj blue is stronger.

Why the need for 2 different base powers?

Also why would goku use ssj when he can 'switch' to his saiyan beyond god base and become thousand of times more powerful than his ssj1 level(aka fp perfect cell level or spc your pick).

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now. Goku was in base form and the only think beerus has to compare is goku's former god power absorbed self back in BOG arc.

First off, you are overthinking this: Goku has always been able to manipulate ki and control his power. Now, would you say he had a million different power levels? It's just a matter of wording, here. Saying he has "two base powers" is just the same as saying "he can control ki to raise or lower his power to appear stronger or weaker at two different points in time".

Secondly, Good Buu is in turn threated by Goku and Vegeta like he is still above Piccolo and nothing so far suggests the contrary or that they had underestimated Piccolo himself. We now know, in addition, that Piccolo is equal or stronger than Frost.
This alone should disprove "the Super Saiyan we have seen against Frost is in the same league of Beerus" theory; unless, again, Goku was heavily suppressing himself even while using that form.

Obviously goku can control his ki.

While goku tends to hold back, it makes no sense for him to use ssj if his base max power would be far beyond frost's max.

And that's why people are saying that he isnt' using "God ki". Hence the "two base" argument, which is really "Goku using his God ki -> Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue" and "Goku not using his God ki -> Base and Super Saiyan".

Again, while it sounds complicated, it best represents what we have been showed so far. The thing it wouldn't make sense here would be the fighters treating Buu as an important member of their team or implying he is more valuable to them than Piccolo when he'd be - to use your own words - "thousand of times" weaker than Piccolo, Goku and Vegeta.

[buutenks]

And that's why people are saying that he isnt' using "god ki". Hence the "two base" argument, which is really "Goku using his God ki -> Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue" and "Goku not using his God ki -> Base and Super Saiyan".

Goku has no god ki in base form, to have he needs to turn ssj blue.

Also beerus stated that goku's base(which did not have god ki) is above his bog arc self when he had the power of the ssj god.

Good buu is that much weaker however.Since ssj blue goku and vegeta are comparable to beerus,while good buu got his ass kicked by kid buu.

WHy would goku handicap himself so much tho?