Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

And that's why people are saying that he isnt' using "god ki". Hence the "two base" argument, which is really "Goku using his God ki -> Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue" and "Goku not using his God ki -> Base and Super Saiyan".

Goku has no god ki in base form, to have he needs to turn ssj blue.

Also beerus stated that goku's base(which did not have god ki) is above his bog arc self when he had the power of the ssj god.

I don't really see the issue here. He may have simply - or rather, likely -been referring to his "Saiyan Beyond God" state, which needs to be channeled.

That'd be the same as saying that when Goku is saying that he "got stronger" he is just referring to the state he is in and not as a whole.
In any way, I think I already made my point sufficiently clear with the Buu and Piccolo issue.

[Speedster]

Now that I watched the episode with subtitles it is clear why Goku said to Piccolo he had no chance. When Goku regained consciousness outside the ring he thought that Frost acted so fast and hit him so hard that he didn't even saw him coming or realise the impact he received. Then believing that since even himself as SSJ lost due to Frost's strength and speed (instead of a technique or something else nefarious) he told Piccolo he had no chance. So he overestimated Frost rather than underestimating Piccolo.

[buutenks]

And that's why people are saying that he isnt' using "god ki". Hence the "two base" argument, which is really "Goku using his God ki -> Saiyan Beyond God and Super Saiyan Blue" and "Goku not using his God ki -> Base and Super Saiyan".

Goku has no god ki in base form, to have he needs to turn ssj blue.

Also beerus stated that goku's base(which did not have god ki) is above his bog arc self when he had the power of the ssj god.

I don't really see the issue here. He may have simply - or rather, likely -been referring to his "Saiyan Beyond God" state, which needs to be channeled.

That'd be the same as saying that when Goku is saying that he "got stronger" he is just referring to the state he is in and not as a whole.
In any way, I think I already made my point sufficiently clear with the Buu and Piccolo issue.

My interest is not in piccolo or buu.Its in goku's base power.

So your theory is, goku to use his saiyan beyond god base which lets say on the toriyama scale is now 6.5 needs to channel his inner god power?

And to use his regular ki which is much much weaker, basically its the regular base prior to the god power?hence would probably put final form frost at cell jr lvl?

Edit:From the NEP,seems vegeta might use ssj vs frost perhaps. Now i can understand goku sensing frost's power and not wanting to crush him in one blow so he uses his older power.

But why would vegeta use ssj?Why not channel that god power in base form and one shot frost? Since frost is not even ssj3 tier according to you. Even if he were, saiyan beyond god vegeta would simply finger flick him and hed be koed or dead.

[Bullza]

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now.

But he was more than likely referring to Super Saiyan Blue Goku. He would have known about the forms existence so I don't think that line necessarily means that SBG Goku > SSJG Goku.

This is reinforced by Piccolo's feats so far: he is supposed to be stronger than what he was in the beginning of Super, but most likely still below Good Buu... who was still Goku and Vegeta's first choice for their team (and who almost certainly didn't get stronger).

That's a good point actually.

[Helios518]

So what's everyone's current tier list for this arc?

[ZombieVito]

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now.

This is reinforced by Piccolo's feats so far: he is supposed to be stronger than what he was in the beginning of Super, but most likely still below Good Buu... who was still Goku and Vegeta's first choice for their team (and who almost certainly didn't get stronger).

That's a good point actually.

It's actually not because they didn't know he was training with Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

My interest is not in piccolo or buu.Its in goku's base power.

So your theory is, goku to use his saiyan beyond god base which lets say on the toriyama scale is now 6.5 needs to channel his inner god power?

And to use his regular ki which is much much weaker, basically its the regular base prior to the god power?hence would probably put final form frost at cell jr lvl?

Edit:From the NEP,seems vegeta might use ssj vs frost perhaps. Now i can understand goku sensing frost's power and not wanting to crush him in one blow so he uses his older power.

But why would vegeta use ssj?Why not channel that god power in base form and one shot frost? Since frost is not even ssj3 tier according to you. Even if he were, saiyan beyond god vegeta would simply finger flick him and hed be koed or dead.

Let's go with order. According to what I can make sense of, the power scale is something like this:

Base Goku < Super Saiyan Goku < Saiyan Beyond God (milky aura, power far superior to Super Saiyan 3 at least; "he is stronger than ever") < Super Saiyan Blue

Why ARE Piccolo and Buu important though? Because:

A) Piccolo is stronger than the Base Goku we have seen against Botamo, who is in turn weaker than third form Frost, who is weaker than Final Form Frost.

B) Piccolo is treated as less important (a.k.a. "weaker") to the team than Good Buu, someone who is almost certainly around the same level he was back in pre-Super, and no one talks about Piccolo exceeding their expectations.

That being said, it should be enough to write down roughly the power scaling as:

Botamo < First Form Frost < Base Goku < Third Form Frost < Final Form Frost < Piccolo < Good Buu

With "Super Saiyan Goku" as an unknown variable.
We can already see what's wrong with the assumptions of "Super Saiyan Goku from this saga = Super Saiyan Goku from Battle of Gods and Base Goku ~ Saiyan Beyond God": Piccolo would be stronger than a Saiyan Beyond God with no apparent explanation nor any kind acknowledgement... plus, Buu would be stronger than the same Saiyan Beyond God for no apparent reason.

My theory, right now, is what someone else already said: the upper end of the scale (Beerus, Champa, Whis, Vados, Monaka, Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta) is one thing and the lower end (Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Base and SS Goku) is another... with an astonishingly big gap in-between.

[buutenks]

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now.

But he was more than likely referring to Super Saiyan Blue Goku. He would have known about the forms existence so I don't think that line necessarily means that SBG Goku > SSJG Goku.

Beerus said you got stronger, lets fight now. Goku and vegeta hadn't discovered ssj blue at that time.

Let's go with order. According to what I can make sense of, the power scale is something like this:

Base Goku < Super Saiyan Goku < Saiyan Beyond God (milky aura, power far superior to Super Saiyan 3 at least; "he is stronger than ever") < Super Saiyan Blue

Why ARE Piccolo and Buu important though? Because:

A) Piccolo is stronger than the Base Goku we have seen against Botamo, who is in turn weaker than third form Frost, who is weaker than Final Form Frost.

B) Piccolo is treated as less important (a.k.a. "weaker") to the team than Good Buu, someone who is almost certainly around the same level he was back in pre-Super, and no one talks about Piccolo exceeding their expectations.

That being said, it should be enough to write down roughly the power scaling as:

Botamo < First Form Frost < Base Goku < Third Form Frost < Final Form Frost < Piccolo < Good Buu

With "Super Saiyan Goku" as an unknown variable.
We can already see what's wrong with the assumptions of "Super Saiyan Goku from this saga = Super Saiyan Goku from Battle of Gods and Base Goku ~ Saiyan Beyond God": Piccolo would be stronger than a Saiyan Beyond God with no apparent explanation nor any kind acknowledgement... plus, Buu would be stronger than the same Saiyan Beyond God for no apparent reason.

My theory, right now, is what someone else already said: the upper end of the scale (Beerus, Champa, Whis, Vados, Monaka, Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta) is one thing and the lower end (Botamo, Frost, Piccolo, Base and SS Goku) is another... with an astonishingly big gap in-between.

Yes but however goku didnt know that piccolo trained with gohan.

Tho there is one thing, no one commented on how powerful ssj goku is, they were more shocked about that he could transform.

[LowRyder2005]

Beerus stated in the ROF arc, after goku and vegeta were resting that goku has become stronger and they should fight now.

This is reinforced by Piccolo's feats so far: he is supposed to be stronger than what he was in the beginning of Super, but most likely still below Good Buu... who was still Goku and Vegeta's first choice for their team (and who almost certainly didn't get stronger).

That's a good point actually.

It's actually not because they didn't know he was training with Gohan.

And no one does even say anything about it when he shows off his power since - according to you - it'd possibly be above Saiyan Beyond God Goku? A nod, an acknowledgement?
It'd almost literally be like Krillin reaching Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Buu Saga and everyone acting "meh" about it, or rather, acting like Krillin was the same guy from before.

[Gorou]

Agree with LowRyder.

There is no reason to consider a similar power up of Piccolo. Simply, Goku did not use his divine powers, and he fought using its regular basic form along with the regular ssj. There is no reason to believe that Frost is near to the level of Buu.

[buutenks]

And no one does even say anything about it when he shows off his power since - according to you - it'd possibly be above Saiyan Beyond God Goku? A nod, an acknowledgement?
It'd almost literally be like Krillin reaching Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the Buu Saga and everyone acting "meh" about it, or rather, acting like Krillin was the same guy from before.

That is also true.

Hmm perhaps this may not be simply toriyama and co simply not caring about how strong all the fighters got, which i first i thought and they r using golden haired ssj to show the difference between the weaker characters and the god tier characters.

Edit;yes i am also starting to agree with this theory.

[dbzfan7]

That's where I stand. If they don't mention a boost or acknowledge a strength increase, chances are it's minimal or not that significant. I mean Krillin immediately commented on Piccolo when he was wrecking Gero, but no one comments here? That's enough for me to believe he didn't get noteworthy stronger than how he was.

[jcogginsa]

Seems pretty obvious to me that Piccolo got a lot stronger

[buutenks]

That's where I stand. If they don't mention a boost or acknowledge a strength increase, chances are it's minimal or not that significant. I mean Krillin immediately commented on Piccolo when he was wrecking Gero, but no one comments here? That's enough for me to believe he didn't get noteworthy stronger than how he was.

True, the z fighters were keen on mentioning how godly freeza and base goku were. But nothing has been mentioned here.

Plus putting all the u6 members at god tier is a bit ridiculous IMO.

Seems pretty obvious to me that Piccolo got a lot stronger

No doubt he did,he was training with gohan.Unknown how strong tho.

Tho there is the fact that goku had no knowledge of piccolo training with gohan...

But, no one mentions piccolo getting who knows what stronger.So his gains were probably minimal.

[LowRyder2005]

Yes but however goku didnt know that piccolo trained with gohan.

Tho there is one thing, no one commented on how powerful ssj goku is, they were more shocked about that he could transform.

I find both observations extremely hard to believe, to be honest. That would be because:

- No one would comment on Piccolo's supposed miraculous training and gains and latest feats against Frost. Never minding the fact that he just trained on his own, at his leisure, for some months - he'd have had a better training regime than Vegeta with Whis, just saying.

- Everyone would be afraid that Goku could transform could be fine, in theory... like in a "hey, that was unexpected, what does he have up his sleeve" manner, but it was suggested to the reader that Goku transformed expressly to raise his power because Frost was stronger in his Third Form.

Mind you, y'all, we are still arguing on something which is pretty much incomplete as of now. These "facts" could change from one episode to another.
Besides, I honestly fear they could easily end up throwing something like narrative coherence (from a power-related perspective) with such a convoluted state of affairs... I mean, okay, it was almost twenty years ago, but everyone of course remembers Super Saiyan Goku getting stronger than Majuub in a year for basically no given reason at all. Now we have, apparently, cornerstones like Base Goku < Super Saiyan Goku < Someone who still looks mostly like Base Goku < a Super Saiyan with blue hair (with little to no exposition).

[Noah]

Power levels in DBS are getting messier and messier

Weakened Final Form > Piccolo > Saiyan Beyond Goku = Super Saiyan God?

[buutenks]

Yes but however goku didnt know that piccolo trained with gohan.

Tho there is one thing, no one commented on how powerful ssj goku is, they were more shocked about that he could transform.

I find both observations extremely hard to believe, to be honest. That would be because:

- No one would comment on Piccolo's supposed miraculous training and gains and latest feats against Frost. Never minding the fact that he just trained on his own, at his leisure, for some months - he'd have had a better training regime than Vegeta with Whis, just saying.

- Everyone would be afraid that Goku could transform could be fine, in theory... like in a "hey, that was unexpected, what does he have up his sleeve" manner, but it was suggested to the reader that Goku transformed expressly to raise his power because Frost was stronger in his Third Form.

Well i meant like,if ssj goku would have been say a 7, champa would be utterly shocked at how close in power to him is IMO.But all he did was he can transform?

Also, an interesting thing. Piccolo after the months of training was asked by goku to join him and vegeta in the rost, however piccolo declined saying he couldnt keep up with them.

So based on that id say its impossible piccolo is close or anywhere near a saiyan beyond god empowered goku or vegeta's comparable BP.

Power levels in DBS are getting messier and messier

Weakened Final Form > Piccolo > Saiyan Beyond Goku = Super Saiyan God?

They arent tho, since piccolo said he couldnt keep up with goku and vegeta. And this was prior to them entering the ROST.

So most likely, goku and vegeta are hiding their god powers and fighting at levels similar to the z era, possibly cell games levels.

[Bullza]

Beerus said you got stronger, lets fight now. Goku and vegeta hadn't discovered ssj blue at that time.

The Goku and Vegeta SSJB tease happened before the 4 month time skip. The scene where Beerus made that comment happened after the 4 months.

After his comment the two were thrown into Beerus' staff for a brief period and then when they came out of it they went straight to Earth.

Being that neither Beerus or Whis made any comment either in the movie or in Super about Goku and Vegeta obtaining a brand new form when they showed uo then they obviously must have discovered SSJB somewhere in that 4 month period and when Beerus was awake.

[buutenks]

Beerus said you got stronger, lets fight now. Goku and vegeta hadn't discovered ssj blue at that time.

The Goku and Vegeta SSJB tease happened before the 4 month time skip. The scene where Beerus made that comment happened after the 4 months.

After his comment the two were thrown into Beerus' staff for a brief period and then when they came out of it they went straight to Earth.

Being that neither Beerus or Whis made any comment either in the movie or in Super about Goku and Vegeta obtaining a brand new form when they showed uo then they obviously must have discovered SSJB somewhere in that 4 month period and when Beerus was awake.

AH, i rechecked and you r correct.I forgot about the 4 month time skip.

yes, no doubt beerus knew about ssj blue.

Edit;So perhaps now it will be like this perhaps:

Goku uses normal base and ssj vs random opponents and when he is serious like say freeza he goes ssj blue, boosting his power considerably?

Also about what i said earlier about why is vegeta using ssj. I guess perhaps vegeta sums that ssj blue is not needed to be revealed and ssj will suffice in dealing with Frost.

[namekiansaiyan]

My power levels as of the end of episode 34:

Whis=Vados=15
Beerus=Champa=10
Monaka= 9
Goku max=Vegeta max=8
Golden Frieza= 7
Frost max=6.6
Piccolo= 6.4 (Special beam cannon= 8.5-9.0 because of what it did to the dome and Chanpa being shocked and probably would have killed Frost)
Base Goku=Base Vegeta=6
Botamo=4