Cell Saga Vegeta

[rereboy]

No matter how low his chances were, they were better than against a stronger Freeza.

What Vegeta did is the equivalent of going to a quiz show on TV where the questions get harder the longer the contestant takes to answer them, and, despite already having an hard time with easy questions, asking the guys from the show, before the show begins, to put the more difficult questions right from the start. In short, reducing his low chances to basically zero.

Since Freeza was already stronger than them in his weaker form, Vegeta should have faced the prospect of Freeza transforming as certain death and tried to fight him in his weaker form. His best bet would have been to fight Freeza with the help of Krillin and Gohan and try to keep him overwhelmed so that he couldn't transform or try to deliver fatal attacks as he is trying to. Krillin's kienzan would have been particularly useful in a scenario like that.

[Gorou]

Well, Freeza would just transform to save himself, making the whole thing pointless, except even worse because now Gohan, Kuririn, and Vegeta would be worn out having fought first form Freeza, putting them in an even worse position to fight a transformed Freeza. And Piccolo? That idea hinges on them knowing that Piccolo would come across a wounded Namekian who would give him a ridiculously large power boost, something none of them could have predicted. Without that, Piccolo would probably have been the weakest one there and would have ended up even more useless than he ended up being in the actual story.

How would have been worse? Freeza's second stage is so powerful, respect to them, that he can take a full power shot of Vegeta (the most powefull in the group), at behind, to off-guard, without suffering a scratch. Instead, the first stage of Freeza was not much more powerfull than Vegeta (the two prove equal into a strength comparison). With a little of tactic, they could kill Freeza (Krilin it could have hit him with a Kiezan as Vegeta kept him busy, or better yet, he could hit him while he was intent to transformed). Freeza is not Cell: if a kiezan cuts his head is over, regardless of the strength. With that Instigation, he dug his own grave.

[Gaffer Tape]

I disagree. That's really all I have left to say at this point because I've already laid out my rationale, and we've reached the point where we're just going in circles, something I'm not interested in doing. So feel free to agree or disagree, but unless something new comes into play, I've said my piece on this topic.

[rereboy]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I fail to see how exactly you disagree that Vegeta and the others had better chances against first form Freeza than against second form Freeza.

[Gorou]

Logic is objective, not subjective. We must take note that, trying to attack Freeza in its first stage, it would have been smarter.
Instead of telling him to trasform, he should focus on his pride, telling him he would not have had the courage to face them without resorting to its transformation, because he was a coward, etc.

Even with Zarbon: he could kill him right away once it got Zenkai instead leaves it to trasform again. Vegeta is one that runs its risks, and he has always done. Simply, sometimes things go well, othertimes do not.

[rereboy]

Basically, I don't agree that their chances of beating second form Freeza are higher than of they managing to beat first form Freeza without letting him transform.

Which means that I believe in something like this: if Vegeta and the others had a 3% chance of beating first from Freeza without letting him transform, they also had a 0,1% chance of beating him if he transforms at the start, and a 0,01% chance of beating him after failing to stop him from transforming, or something similar to that (assuming that it's indeed even worse).

I don't agree that their chances of beating first form Freeza without letting him transform would be lower than beating a transformed Freeza from the start.

That's all the issue comes down to.

[apex_pretador]

Freeza is not Cell: if a kiezan cuts them the head is over, regardless of the strength. With that Instigation, he dug his own grave.

Although I do think that 1st form F cut by keinzan is game over, but not higher forms. I'd bet that at the end of namek, when he blasted at goku in half cut state, he could've probably killed vegeta (post zenkai) easily.

Cell also got his regen so much better than piccolo due to freeza (probably). Him regenerating from KHH was a feat i don't think piccolo could perform. He still had his ki left in his lower half body.

[Gorou]

Freeza is not Cell: if a kiezan cuts them the head is over, regardless of the strength. With that Instigation, he dug his own grave.

Although I do think that 1st form F cut by keinzan is game over, but not higher forms. I'd bet that at the end of namek, when he blasted at goku in half cut state, he could've probably killed vegeta (post zenkai) easily.

Cell also got his regen so much better than piccolo due to freeza (probably). Him regenerating from KHH was a feat i don't think piccolo could perform. He still had his ki left in his lower half body.

Cell partly is a bug, no?
Some insects can survive days without their head.

[IDreamtIWasABee]

Filler Vegeta was more nuanced and interesting in his reaction to meeting SSJ Goku on Namek than he was in the entire Cell saga. Vegeta was proud of the guy, and that shouldn't have left him, even as feelings of envy, inadequacy, and pride in catching up grow stronger and stronger.

It would be more realistic for him to treat Goku the way he did in the Boo arc, while treating everyone else as disposable. The only exception might be Trunks, since this Vegeta would respect any SSJ, and his budding humanity and raging narcissism would combine to let him appreciate Trunks' situation as analogous to his own with Freeza. But he'd still be an asshole Saiyan letting Cell become Perfect nstuff.