Unpopular DB opinions

[Kuririn Fan]

The Garlic Jr Arc was one of my favorite Arcs in the series. You didn't need Goku or Vegeta to win. Strategy was used, those henchmen were hilarious with their goofy names (Ketchup, Vinegar, Salt), and the concept of the Deadzone was a horrible fate, even worse than getting killed.

Slice of life episodes were great, but the fighting dragged on forever.

[Gorou]

I never minded that filler bit where the Kienzan fails against Perfect Cell. I feel like people really overrate the Kienzan's ability. Sure it's an incredibly powerful move, but I feel to see why people think it should be able to cut literally anything.

I agree with you.
Ki in Dragon Ball has always had limitations ranging from the power of the person who uses it, is not magic. For how effective the shot remains limited to the ki of the user. So when I see people who complain that in the anime the kiezan tickles the neck Cell do not understand where is the error: When ever we are told that the Kienzan can cut anything indiscriminately in the manga? Among the Perfect Cell and Krillin ki there is an abyss and Kienzan is created with the ki of Krillin that is opposed to the Ki of Cell ... where is the inconsistency?

Maybe they were right, because in the Namek saga have created too many paradoxical situations where Krilin not use the kiezan, with which he could resolve everything

[rereboy]

I agree with you.
Ki in Dragon Ball has always had limitations ranging from the power of the person who uses it, is not magic. For how effective the shot remains limited to the ki of the user. So when I see people who complain that in the anime the kiezan tickles the neck Cell do not understand where is the error: When ever we are told that the Kienzan can cut anything indiscriminately in the manga? Among the Perfect Cell and Krillin ki there is an abyss and Kienzan is created with the ki of Krillin that is opposed to the Ki of Cell ... where is the inconsistency?

When Krillin's Kienzan could cut even Freeza, without any indication that was any less effective than it was agaisnt a weaker opponent if it hits.

Maybe they were right, because in the Namek saga have created too many paradoxical situations where Krilin not use the kiezan, with which he could resolve everything

Freeza dodged Krillin's Kienzan even though Krillin attacked from behind, where Freeza couldn't see. So, how would Kienzan resolve everything? Even without seeing the attack, fighters that are stronger and faster than Krillin can just avoid the attack, as proven by Freeza doing it. Kienzan only works of it hits.

[Gorou]

When Krillin's Kienzan could cut even Freeza, without any indication that was any less effective than it was agaisnt a weaker opponent if it hits.

We can assume that it may have effect also with opponents 200 times stronger, but not 2000 times. Obviously is a subjective thing

Freeza dodged Krillin's Kienzan even though Krillin attacked from behind, where Freeza couldn't see. So, how would Kienzan resolve everything? Even without seeing the attack, fighters that are stronger and faster than Krillin can just avoid the attack, as proven by Freeza doing it. Kienzan only works of it hits.

After that had blinded him with Taiyoken, he could have hit him without the slightest problem.

[rereboy]

We can assume that it may have effect also with opponents 200 times stronger, but not 2000 times. Obviously is a subjective thing.

All other attacks (except Taiyoken and Kienzan) were shown to start to lose their effect against much stronger opponents, while attacks like Taiyoken and Kienzan remained just as effective even against opponents regarding who all other attacks had become ineffective. We can verify that this is true in the manga, and thus, this is fact, not subjective.

However, it's true that you can argue that, eventually, a much stronger opponent could be so strong that even Kienzan would start to lose its effect against him. But, that opinion is not based on anything that you saw in the manga regarding Kienzan, because, in the manga, unlike pretty much all other attacks, Kienzan was never shown to lose effect in relation to how much stronger the opponent is.

After that had blinded him with Taiyoken, he could have hit him without the slightest problem.

Freeza dodged a Kienzan that he hadn't seen. Krillin attacked Freeza from behind him, from his blind spot, and just using his instinct, reflexes and ears, Freeza still noticed the attack and dodged it all the same.

Besides that, Vegeta, in the saiyan arc, also dodged a Kienzan from behind him, without seeing it, just by staying alert, paying attention and listening since he expected an attack.

If an opponent had been blinded by Taiyoken, he would still have his instinct, reflexes and ears, and he would definitely be expecting an attack. Thus, he would still be able to dodge the Kienzan. It would be much riskier that dodging it with the use of his eyes, but to think that Kienzan is, somehow, an attack that couldn't be avoided if the opponent can't see it is not supported by the manga.

[Gorou]

All other attacks (except Taiyoken and Kienzan) were shown to start to lose their effect against much stronger opponents

Where exactly?
Makankosappo is no longer used by Piccolo, later in the manga, so we have no way to refute anything. Final Flash is used once, with a semi-success. None of these shots has never failed in the manga, but no one considers them infallible.

, while attacks like Taiyoken and Kienzan remained just as effective even against opponents regarding who all other attacks had become ineffective. We can verify that this is true in the manga, and thus, this is fact, not subjective.

The Taiyoken is a flash of light that blinds the enemy. Is natural that it works regardless of the enemy force. The Kienzan remains tied to the functioning of ki.

Then, i do not say that it is so, but that does not sound absurd as many say.

Freeza dodged a Kienzan that he hadn't seen. Krillin attacked Freeza from behind him, from his blind spot, and just using his instinct, reflexes and ears, Freeza still noticed the attack and dodged it all the same.

If he had been blinded by Taiyoken, he would still have his instinct reflexes and ears and thus, would still be able to dodge it the same way. It would be riskier that dodging it with the use of his eyes, but to think that Kienzan is somehow an attack that couldn't fail if the opponent couldn't see it is wrong.

It is not so. He turned around, he SEEN the attack to get behind him (It was more to his side) , and he avoided. Following Krillin throws a barrage of Kienzan, he sees them, and dodges all the last minute. If that barrage of Kienzan he had thrown it to him after having blinded with tayoken, while he had his hands to his eyes to the pain, and while it was a meter or so from him, he would have undoubtedly killed.

[rereboy]

Where exactly?
Makankosappo is no longer used by Piccolo, later in the manga, so we have no way to refute anything. Final Flash is used once, with a semi-success. None of these shots has never failed in the manga, but no one considers them infallible.

Every single Ki attack that Freeza suffered during the Freeza fight from much weaker opponents demonstrates this. It either didn't faze him at all, or their effect was greatly reduced due to the fact that Freeza was much stronger.

Except for Kizenzan. And Taiyoken.

The same can be seen in practically every other saga.

Final Flash or Makansosappo are completely different from Kienzan because it's demonstrated that they require a great amount of Ki build-up behind them. Therefore, there is a correlation between amount of power used by the user and the attack. Makansosappo, for example, required Piccolo to build up his Ki to a level that rivaled or surpassed Radditz's Ki on its own. Final Flash on the other required Vegeta to gather more Ki than he had on the rest of the fight. Kienzan, on the other hand, does not imply a build-up of power. There is no correlation between the power used by the fighter and the effectiveness of the attack.

The Taiyoken is a flash of light that blinds the enemy. Is natural that it works regardless of the enemy force. The Kienzan remains tied to the functioning of ki.

You are only assuming that the way it functions correlates in some way to how strong the opponent is. That is not demonstrated in the manga. If anything, the opposite seems to be true.

It is not so. He turned around, he SEEN the attack to get behind him (It was more to his side) , and he avoided.

He noticed the attack before turning around. If he was blind, he would notice the attack all the same.

Vegeta, in the saiyan saga didn't turn at all and still avoided it.

Following Krillin throws a barrage of Kienzan, he sees them, and dodges all the last minute. If that barrage of Kienzan he had thrown it to him after having blinded with tayoken, while he had his hands to his eyes to the pain, and while it was a meter or so from him, he would have undoubtedly killed.

If he had been blinded, he would have been expecting an attack, so, to avoid it, all he had to do would be do fly at full speed towards the sky until he regained his vision. The Kienzan would never be fast enough to keep up with him, nor would they be fast enough to surround him before he flies away .

Or, he could just cause an immense Ki explosion towards all directions that would neutralize anything, including the Kienzans and Krillin.

Plenty of options when the opponent is stronger and faster.

[Kuririn Fan]

Yes, Kienzan is THAT strong that it has no limitations. Yes, that little piece of shit that dies all the time Kuririn, the strongest Earthling, invented that technique.

[Gorou]

Every single Ki attack that Freeza suffered during the Freeza fight from much weaker opponents demonstrates this.

Prove what? Those were normal attacks, not particularly concentrated.

Final Flash or Makansosappo are completely different from Kienzan because it's demonstrated that they require a great amount of Ki build-ip behind them. Therefore, there is a correlation between amount of power used by the user and the attack. Makansosappo, for example, required Piccolo to build up his Ki to a level that rivaled or surpassed Radditz's Ki on its own. Kienzan, on the other hand, does not imply a build-up of power. There is no correlation between the power used by the fighter and the effectiveness of the attack.

All three attacks were compounds by Ki, the difference is that the first two are constructed in a totally different way. Makankosappo e Final Flash are both penetrating attacks, that pulverize a most large portion of the opponent's body, so it makes sense that require a much greater load. The Kienzan is a circular saw ki, very sharp, compressed, which disintegrates a much smaller portion of the enemy, the one that the knife edge will hit. Same principle of the hammer blow with a nail. It is more efficient, but it covers a smaller range

You are only assuming that the way it functions correlates in some way to how strong the opponent is. That is not demonstrated in the manga. If anything, the opposite seems to be true.

I'm not proving anything. Taiyoken must not exceed any ki or any enemy resistance.

He noticed the attack before turning around. If he was blind, he would notice the attack all the same.

But it would not have avoided, given that, even seeing him, he was not able to completely dodge, at the last. Also, nothing tells us that have not noticed thanks to the eye (perhaps seeing the bright glow). Krillin he was not behind his back, but in his side, so he could possibly see him.
.

Vegeta, in the saiyan saga didn't turn at all and still avoided it.

One expected, and might even have heard Krillin say the technique's name.

If he had been blinded, he would have been expecting an attack, so, to avoid it, all he had to do would be do fly at full speed towards the sky until he regained his vision. The Kienzan would never be fast enough to keep up with him, nor would they be fast enough to surround him before he flies away .

But he has not done any of this. Krillin has blinded his eyes, but he did nothing: not moved away from him, not protected in any way. It remained still, fixed in the air, for a long time, I might add, rubbing his eyes and complain for the pain. He does not do anything despite the same Krillin, a few feet from him, tell to Vegeta ""is the right time, hit him"
Nothing, has stay still, in the air, despite having heard what he said. If Krillin had attacked him, he would die. Needless to deny it

[apex_pretador]

VEGETA is the villain for U6 arc:

HE proposed the test & took buu , resulting in buu failing
HE forced piccolo to forfeit
HE requested a lost member of U6 to come back to fight
HE nullified the correction of cheating of frost, possibly costing goku's comeback
HE wants to fight frost, knowing that he can put poison in him too.

[Kuririn Fan]

I don't like him, but he's not a villain.

[LuckyCat]

I never minded that filler bit where the Kienzan fails against Perfect Cell. I feel like people really overrate the Kienzan's ability. Sure it's an incredibly powerful move, but I feel to see why people think it should be able to cut literally anything.

I prefer it that way too and I'm glad Kai kept the scene in. My head-canon is that Perfect Cell is immune to kienzan. Not that it matters though, even if the attack could cut Cell, Cell could regenerate from that level of injury.

[rereboy]

Prove what? Those were normal attacks, not particularly concentrated.

They were the best/strongest attacks they could manage. They had no reason to hold anything back, they were fighting for their lives. For example, when Vegeta attacked Freeza from behind and celebrates at first, only to realize that it had not even fazed him.

All three attacks were compounds by Ki, the difference is that the first two are constructed in a totally different way. Makankosappo e Final Flash are both penetrating attacks, that pulverize a most large portion of the opponent's body, so it makes sense that require a much greater load. The Kienzan is a circular saw ki, very sharp, compressed, which disintegrates a much smaller portion of the enemy, the one that the knife edge will hit. Same principle of the hammer blow with a nail. It is more efficient, but it covers a smaller range

They still depend on ki build up to work. They have penetrating qualities but still depend essentially on the power behind them, hence the build up.

Kienzan doesn't, thus why it's essentially different. It works more as a technique, not really dependent on the power behind it, unlike the others.

The difference is clear when we compare the scenes where Kienzan is used and when those other attacks were used.

I'm not proving anything. Taiyoken must not exceed any ki or any enemy resistance.

And why do you assume kienzan must exceed Ki or enemy resistance? Did any character state that? Did kienzan lose effect depending on the enemy resistance in the manga? No. You are just assuming that it must work more or less like the other attacks, but the manga actually points towards not working exactly the same way.

But it would not have avoided, given that, even seeing him, he was not able to completely dodge, at the last.

And yet Vegeta managed to do it, despite not even seeing it. That shows that it's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of being alert. By being much stronger and faster they clearly have the ability to avoid it, even while blind, it just a matter of being alert.

Also, nothing tells us that have not noticed thanks to the eye (perhaps seeing the bright glow). Krillin he was not behind his back, but in his side, so he could possibly see him.

He turned around. The attack came from his back. But insisting on that point doesn't even matter since we have Vegeta doing the same and he didn't even turn around.

One expected, and might even have heard Krillin say the technique's name.

As one would expect an attack after being blinded by a Taiyoken.

But he has not done any of this. Krillin has blinded his eyes, but he did nothing: not moved away from him, not protected in any way. It remained still, fixed in the air, for a long time, I might add, rubbing his eyes and complain for the pain. He does not do anything despite the same Krillin, a few feet from him, tell to Vegeta ""is the right time, hit him"
Nothing, has stay still, in the air, despite having heard what he said. If Krillin had attacked him, he would die. Needless to deny it

Vegeta in the saiyan arc and Freeza blinded is exactly the same thing. Both are expecting an attack from their blind spots. Both could and would move/dodge if and when they felt the attack was coming.

Vegeta also didn't jump before Krillin's Kienzan actually came. So, Freeza not dodging when no attack is coming is as relevant as Vegeta not jumping before Krillin attacked.

If Freeza sensed an attack, like Vegeta sensed an attack in the saiyan arc despite having no power sensing at the time, he could and would avoid it.

And even when Freeza wasn't expecting and attack from Krillin at all because he thought he was dead, he still managed to dodge an Kienzan from his back.

There is no point in trying to deny that a fighter can avoid Kienzans that he didn't or can't see. The manga demonstrates this, more than once, like I stated.

Furthermore, he doesn't even need to dodge, he could just create a huge Ki explosion to destroy everything around him while he is blind that would neutralize attacks coming for him and hurt or kill the people around him.

[Gorou]

They were the best/strongest attacks they could manage. They had no reason to hold anything back, they were fighting for their lives. For example, when Vegeta attacked Freeza from behind and celebrates at first, only to realiz that it had not even fazed him.

This is not a proof. He launched one attack that was not built as Final Flash, or concentrate as Makankosappo. In fact, all that power is not served to surpass the gap, because the attack is result inefficient.

They still depend on ki build up to work. They have penetrating qualities but still depend essentially on the power behind them, hence the build up.

Kienzan doesn't, thus why it's essentially different. It works more as a technique, not really dependent on the power behind it, unlike the others.

The difference is clear when we compare the scenes where Kienzan is used and when those other attacks were used.

The energy storage is logically necessary, because It deals with two different attacks, constructed so as to penetrate, in the case of Makankosappo, and pulverize whole portions of the opponent's body, in the case of the Final Flash. Kienzan is limited to cut. The same physical and logical reasoning confirms to us that is required much more energy to vaporize a trunk, than to cut it and bring it down.

And why do you assume kienzan must exceed Ki or enemy resistance? Did any character state that? Did kienzan lose effect depending on the enemy resistance in the manga? No. You are just assuming that it must work more or less like the other attacks, but the manga actually points towards not working exactly the same way.

Because, of course, unlike the Taiyoken, he hits, impacts, cuts, the opponent's body. It is not a spiritual saw, but it acts in a physical way. The Taiyoken is a only shot of light.

And yet Vegeta managed to do it, despite not even seeing it. That shows that it's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of being alert. By being much stronger and faster they clearly have the ability to avoid it, even while blind, it just a matter of being alert.

Not strictly necessary, if the enemy SCREAMS the technique's name before the launch.

He turned around. The attack came from his back. But insisting on that point doesn't even matter since we have Vegeta doing the same and he didn't even turn around.

Absolutely not, because Krillin was not behind him, but beside. Just observe, in the later sequence , its position relative to Gohan, and the way on his body is oriented.

As one would expect an attack after being blinded by a Taiyoken.

Freeza is not expected anything like this. The comparison with Vegeta is irrelevant

Vegeta in the saiyan arc and Freeza blinded is exactly the same thing. Both are expecting an attack from their blind spots. Both could and would move/dodge if and when they felt the attack was coming.

Vegeta is not Freeza. Freezer remained motionless without doing anything, and was sore, with Krilin in its proximity.

Vegeta also didn't jump before Krillin's Kienzan actually came. So, Freeza not dodging when no attack is coming is as relevant as Vegeta not jumping before Krillin attacked.

That, in fact, was an your example, totally wrong. And again, Vegeta was not blind, was not bothered by anything, indeed it was on alert, e for this the example is not appropriate, because nothing said that two distinct characters behave in the same way

If Freeza sensed an attack, like Vegeta sensed an attack in the saiyan arc despite having no power sensing at the time, he could and would avoid it.

I would say no. His situation was totally different and he has not even proven capable of perceiving his own kiezan. In addition, Vegeta on Earth learns to perceive the Ki, and nothing prevents us from thinking that at that time he had already learned.

And even when Freeza wasn't expecting and attack from Krillin at all because he thought he was dead, he still managed to dodge an Kienzan from his back.

He was not behind him, and he saw the attack.

There is no point in trying to deny that a fighter can avoid Kienzans that he didn't or can't see. The manga demonstrates this, more than once, like I stated.

The manga has not shown anything. Freeza has avoided the kiezan when he saw them, and when it was under normal conditions, not when he was tense, blinded and disoriented. Same for Vegeta, he was on the alert (by his own admission).

Furthermore, he doesn't even need to dodge, he could just create a huge Ki explosion to destroy everything around him while he is blind that would neutralize attacks coming for him and hurt or kill the people around him.

Thing that he did not do. He could do a thousand things, but remained motionless. We have already seen how he behaved in that situation, then groped to formulate possible tactics which he could be implemented, it is useless. Evidently, the Taiyoken is so disturbing and painful that, on the moment, the blinded guy fails to act.

[Black_Liger]

If the animation was a little better, and blood, DB super would be better than DBZ could ever hope to be.

[Kuririn Fan]

If the animation was a little better, and blood, DB super would be better than DBZ could ever hope to be.

What the fuck? No, no and no. Explain, please.

[Khin]

If the animation was a little better, and blood, DB super would be better than DBZ could ever hope to be.

The Champa Arc maybe.But animation and blood can't save ROF and BOG arcs.

[Kuririn Fan]

If the animation was a little better, and blood, DB super would be better than DBZ could ever hope to be.

The Champa Arc maybe.But animation and blood can't save ROF and BOG arcs.

Are you guys serious? Super is miles below anything in Z. You are talking about 63% of the original manga and 4 legendary arcs that became the Godfather of all future action shonen anime and mangas. This is so ridiculous and i think a little bit of trolling is involved. Just a little bit.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

If the animation was a little better, and blood, DB super would be better than DBZ could ever hope to be.

It would certainly be of huge benefit if Super had both of those two things, but as of now it's not as good as Z because it's lacking in execution. Super's habit of introducing characters and story elements with little reason for the audience to care puts it below Z in my opinion. For example I don't mind having Tights in the series but no attempt was made to explain her absence in anything since than the Jaco manga, likewise with Kibitoshin defusing, King Kai's planet and Piccolo being resurrected all off-screen. The lack of context hurts the storytelling at times and the fact Z has more gives it the advantage.

[Desassina]

Dragon Ball Super has just as many sidequests and one offs as Dragon Ball Z had filler, which means that the universe got expanded from the main events. What Dragon Ball Super has in its favour is an approach to such events in hindsight, which allows the universe to be made whole through consistency. Dragon Ball Z had to use filler before the franchise was organized by the guides, and it's a finished product by now, which means that Kai gets to select the most appropriate for the new generation. You know that when the latter was made with the intention to follow the manga more closely by using an assistant of the Daizenshuu, and so DB Super is the follow up to the manga through the anime.