Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The only reason I want to watch the next episode is to see if Goku says something to Piccolo. Maybe we can get lucky.

[Bullza]

So Vegeta can obtain Super Saiyan God with only about 6 months of training and with no real explanation
but Piccolo can't get a lot more powerful in the same amount of time.

Vegeta trained with Whis, the most powerful being in the Universe by far. If he'd tapped into God powers then it would boost his power tremendously like when Gohan tapped into his Super Saiyan powers in the ROSAT.

Piccolo just trained with Gohan and he didnt obtain a new form, also unlike how Frieza did with the Golden Form.

Explain to me how he could go from being so pitifully weak, like less than 1% when compared to Goku to then surpassing him with a fraction of the amount of training time and it making sense?

Then explain why after Piccolo had very suddenly surpassed Vegito, Frieza and Super Saiyan God that not one person watching him says anything about it.

Krillin made a comment on his power boost after training for 3 years in the Android saga. Goku made a comment on his power boost after training in the ROSAT. However nobody says anything here.

[Bullza]

Sure, he did get stronger than he was in FnF, he was weaker than base Gohan in FnF after all.

I'd say they were equal actually.

Under the assumption that Shisami from the movie was equal to Tagoma from the series well

Piccolo = Shisami

Base Gohan = Tagoma

So ideally Piccolo = Shisami = Tagoma = Base Gohan

And when Piccolo and Gohan fought the two were equal. However when Piccolo fought Shisami and Gohan he wasn't wearing his weights but he was when he fought Tagoma which is why he was beaten easily.

Back when he fought Raditz when he took his weights off his power jumped up about 30%. If that's still the case then it'd make sense to me. If he removed his weights he'd probably have been equal to Tagoma.

[namekiansaiyan]

So Vegeta can obtain Super Saiyan God with only about 6 months of training and with no real explanation
but Piccolo can't get a lot more powerful in the same amount of time.

Vegeta trained with Whis, the most powerful being in the Universe by far. If he'd tapped into God powers then it would boost his power tremendously like when Gohan tapped into his Super Saiyan powers in the ROSAT.

Piccolo just trained with Gohan and he didnt obtain a new form, also unlike how Frieza did with the Golden Form.

Explain to me how he could go from being so pitifully weak, like less than 1% when compared to Goku to then surpassing him with a fraction of the amount of training time and it making sense?

Then explain why after Piccolo had very suddenly surpassed Vegito, Frieza and Super Saiyan God that not one person watching him says anything about it.

Krillin made a comment on his power boost after training for 3 years in the Android saga. Goku made a comment on his power boost after training in the ROSAT. However nobody says anything here.

Namekians do not transform like Saiyans and Frieza race characters when they power up. No one has made a comment because everyone was underestimating him just like he said when he stepped into the ring.

[namekiansaiyan]

The only reason I want to watch the next episode is to see if Goku says something to Piccolo. Maybe we can get lucky.

Goku will probably comment on Piccolo at the start of episode 35 when he sits down and he will without doubt say how stong Piccolo has got or something like that.

[Bullza]

No one has made a comment because everyone was underestimating him just like he said when he stepped into the ring.

But they could have still said something when he was fighting.

Do you honestly think that Piccolo got hundreds of times more powerful just by training with Gohan for about 8 months (possibly)?

[namekiansaiyan]

No one has made a comment because everyone was underestimating him just like he said when he went into the ring.

But they could have still said something when he was fighting.

Do you honestly think that Piccolo got hundreds of times more powerful just by training with Gohan for about 8 months (possibly)?

Yes I do believe Piccolo has got that strong because the whole franchise has history of doing it. Everyone was concentrating on when he was gping to fire he attack to comment. Goku will almost certainly at the start of the next episode say when Piccolo returns to the bench that he has got a lot stronger and I underestimated you.

[Kaboom]

The whole "Goku and Vegeta's normal power and god power are entirely separate" angle looks better and better with every episode.

[Hugo Boss]

namekiansaiyan, let's see your points.

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier, just look at the evidence(!)

Frost only hit Piccolo when Piccolo wanted him too
That Special Beam Cannon would have killed Frost.
The Special Beam Cannon Destroyed the dome this was done to showohow powerful it was( he charged for too long) as evidenced by Champa's reaction.
Piccolo said that everyone is underestimatimg him( that is why no one said how powerful he was)
Final form Frost is stronger than base Goku who is God tier and therefore Piccolo is stronger than base Goku.
Piccolo reluctantly said I forfeit when Vegeta wanted him to, Piccolo was annoyed can't you people tell.
This was a show and tell of his power.

The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

Piccolo could only avoid Frost's hits, he couldn't fight back. This is enough evidence of how different their levels are.
SBC is a technique that pushes Piccolo beyond his limits, as evidenced when he fought Raditz and as commented by Kuririn.
The NEP shows that the dome will be reinforced to withstand Vegeta vs. Frost. Vados probably realized the level of the fighters is greater than she imagined.
None is understimating Piccolo's power, they are understimating his fighting style and techniques.
There is no proof Base Goku is God tier, neither that Piccolo is stronger than him. Piccolo even suggested Frost's current form is unfair. It's perfectly possible that Piccolo is still weaker than Base Goku without SBC.
Piccolo wasn't annoyed at Vegeta, he was trying to figure out what Vegeta has in mind.
I agree with this last point, but there is no guarantee Piccolo will receive any acknowledgement in the next episodes. The moment everyone was expecting for his power to be praised didn't happen, so let's just accept Piccolo isn't very special without SBC and his tatics.

[Noah]

The whole "Goku and Vegeta's normal power and god power are entirely separate" angle looks better and better with every episode.

You mean, like DBZGTKOSDH's theory?

Maybe after his training inside the RoSaT, he has full control of the Super Saiyan God power, so he can turn it on & off in his regular form? So, it would work like this:

Regular form (Base) ⇒ Super Saiyan ⇒ Super Saiyan 2 ⇒ Super Saiyan 3
⇓
Super Saiyan God

Regular form (Base) with SSG power ⇒ Super Saiyan Blue

[Bullza]

I can't really recall anyone having a boost like that without their being a specific reason, like gravity training, new forms, zenkai boosts which have long since been dropped.

It happened with Frieza because he'd never trained at all and he got a new form. Piccolo just trained with Gohan for a few months and that's it.

It's really either a case if

1. Really bad writing

2. The base Goku who fought Frost is much weaker than the one who fought Frieza.

If base Goku in RoF was supposed to be equal or stronger than SSJG (which I don't personally believe) and there was only one base Goku and he's even stronger in this arc, then SSJ apparently boosts his power significantly and then he still isn't using his full power which would be SSJB.....then how on earth could he not be stronger than Beerus at this point?

[Kaboom]

The whole "Goku and Vegeta's normal power and god power are entirely separate" angle looks better and better with every episode.

You mean, like DBZGTKOSDH's theory?

Yep, pretty much. Goku (and Vegeta) can choose to use his godly ki in full (SSGSS vs Golden Freeza), in part ("beyond God" base vs normal Freeza), or not at all (normal base and SS vs Frost).

Perfectly explains why SSGSS and regular Super Saiyan are separate entities, why he has no need for SS2 and SS3 anymore, and makes a lot more sense than all these other guys like Frost and Botamo all being up on a godly level out of nowhere. Even Piccolo can improve significantly over the past few years since Boo and from his recent training with Gohan, but be at a more reasonable Perfect Cell or SS2 level, and a match for Frost like SS Goku was.

[Speedster]

I don't understand why is there such an obvious hatred for Piccolo being strong. It's not that hard of logic to understand. Even now the powerlevels of the characters even in the Saiyan and Cell arc still isn't resolved.

If your logic is that power levels are nothing but a joke, I am with you. But if you claim that there is any kind of in-universe logic behind the power levels and their random, ass-pull increases whenever it comes to the supporting cast (e.g. Piccolo), then please by all means enlighten us. Because next thing the show remained to do is to have Krillin or Roshi beating up Beerus and Whis and that without explanation and you would still not understand the reaction. Instead we should all shut up, accept it is all good and normal, not feel that our intelligence is insulted and not call out the obvious bullshit....Err, No!

Perfectly explains why SSGSS and regular Super Saiyan are separate entities, why he has no need for SS2 and SS3 anymore, and makes a lot more sense than all these other guys like Frost and Botamo all being up on a godly level out of nowhere. Even Piccolo can improve significantly over the past few years since Boo and from his recent training with Gohan, but be at a more reasonable Perfect Cell or SS2 level, and a match for Frost like SS Goku was.

I don't think the show goes down the route of having 2 bases. Why would Goku bother to transform to SSJ1 if he can achieve a far more powerful state at his base and even control the amount of that power up by selecting a percentage of godly ki? It rather appears that there is only one base (a normal base) and that God powers from now on can only be accessed through the SSGSS transformation. If you like the standard multipliers it could be something like this:
Normal base
SSJ1=(Normal Base)*M (M=5/50)
SSJ2=SSJ1*2
SSJ3=SSJ2*4=SSJ1*8
Enraged SSJ2 "mutation"=SSJ1*16
SSGSS=SSJ1*500

Of course that is for internal consumption -- an attempt in putting logic on something (power levels) that was created with no logic and was even later discarded by the original author himself.

[supercat]

I seriously find it utterly disgusting yet hilarious how people go above and beyond to take away from Piccolo's credibility to add that much more to an already overly loved Saiyan duo.

Candidly speaking, it would be quite gratifying to see that glory hogging sad excuse of a Saiyan prince being subjected to the same level of beating he took from Frieza back on Namek.

Piccolo's fights are far better choreographed than the vast majority of Vegeta's; the latter's fights aren't particularly interesting or appealing by any stretch.

The way I see it, Goku and Vegeta fans are just having a hard time accepting the few additional minutes of well-deserved screen time other characters are receiving for a change. Then we have Buu fans who are all upset over the fact that their favorite villain is now becoming a thing of the past (much like Frieza was at one point).

I also find it quite comical that people are trying to squeeze everyone into some watered down tier system that clearly defies the show's track record of significantly powering up characters as the story progresses.

[namekiansaiyan]

namekiansaiyan, let's see your points.

Why are some people not accepting Piccolo has to be God tier, just look at the evidence(!)

Frost only hit Piccolo when Piccolo wanted him too
That Special Beam Cannon would have killed Frost.
The Special Beam Cannon Destroyed the dome this was done to showohow powerful it was( he charged for too long) as evidenced by Champa's reaction.
Piccolo said that everyone is underestimatimg him( that is why no one said how powerful he was)
Final form Frost is stronger than base Goku who is God tier and therefore Piccolo is stronger than base Goku.
Piccolo reluctantly said I forfeit when Vegeta wanted him to, Piccolo was annoyed can't you people tell.
This was a show and tell of his power.

The only reason you people keep daying he is not God tier is because Goku said nothing. I virtually can guarantee you that at the start of the next episode he wil say to Piccolo you have got strong and I underestimated you.

Piccolo could only avoid Frost's hits, he couldn't fight back. This is enough evidence of how different their levels are.
SBC is a technique that pushes Piccolo beyond his limits, as evidenced when he fought Raditz and as commented by Kuririn.
The NEP shows that the dome will be reinforced to withstand Vegeta vs. Frost. Vados probably realized the level of the fighters is greater than she imagined.
None is understimating Piccolo's power, they are understimating his fighting style and techniques.
There is no proof Base Goku is God tier, neither that Piccolo is stronger than him. Piccolo even suggested Frost's current form is unfair. It's perfectly possible that Piccolo is still weaker than Base Goku without SBC.
Piccolo wasn't annoyed at Vegeta, he was trying to figure out what Vegeta has in mind.
I agree with this last point, but there is no guarantee Piccolo will receive any acknowledgement in the next episodes. The moment everyone was expecting for his power to be praised didn't happen, so let's just accept Piccolo isn't very special without SBC and his tatics.

We are interpreting the events of the episode completely differemt and almost the complete pposite every time. Piccolo knew he could take Frost in final form but was trying to get an advantage and Frost then mocked him and that is when Piccolo said everyone is underestimating him.

[Lionel]

Piccolo can go from being inferior to 3rd form Freeza to openly challenging Vegeta within a time frame of less than two years simply by training alone in the wilderness and people are questioning the value of a "normal" routine? This is when the series was relatively more grounded. It wouldn't surprise me if he made some headway into surpassing final form Frost in today's DB world after a similar time period had elapsed. He's training with the guy who happens to possess the greatest potential out of any Z-Warrior in the series. That's not exactly the best option available to him considering Gohan's current standing, but after Whis and the Super Saiyan Gods, it's probably about as good as you're going to get.

This battle against Frost wasn't just a matter of "strategy" or "intelligence". Those traits are nice and all, but they're subverted when power is taken into consideration. Skill can only take you so far without the necessary power to back it up, and I wouldn't even necessarily call what Piccolo did to be astute. He went as far as he did because of his power granting him the reflexive capacity and strength to dodge and restrict Frost's movements. He must not be all that terribly weaker if he's taking hits and still standing -- not even #17 could boast that once Imperfect Cell got his hands on him. Like I said -- in the worst case scenario he's about as weak as Giran was against tailless Goku.

[namekiansaiyan]

I seriously find it utterly disgusting yet hilarious how people go above and beyond to take away from Piccolo's credibility to add that much more to an already overly loved Saiyan duo.

Candidly speaking, it would be quite gratifying to see that glory hogging sad excuse of a Saiyan prince being subjected to the same level of beating he took from Frieza back on Namek.

Piccolo's fights are far better choreographed than the vast majority of Vegeta's; the latter's fights aren't particularly interesting or appealing by any stretch.

The way I see it, Goku and Vegeta fans are just having a hard time accepting the few additional minutes of well-deserved screen time other characters are receiving for a change. Then we have Buu fans who are all upset over the fact that their favorite villain is now becoming a thing of the past (much like Frieza was at one point).

I also find it quite comical that people are trying to squeeze everyone into some watered down tier system that clearly defies the show's track record of significantly powering up characters as the story progresses.

This person is correct in so many ways.

[ZombieVito]

So how strong is base non god Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Botamo and the many forms of Frost?

Time to show some power levels.

[Draconic]

So how strong is base non god Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Botamo and the many forms of Frost?

Time to show some power levels.

There is no base non-god Goku. Goku's base is the same as it is when he faced Beerus, maybe stronger. I really don't see where this thing is coming from

[namekiansaiyan]

So how strong is base non god Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Botamo and the many forms of Frost?

Time to show some power levels.

somewhere around this:

Goku and Vegeta max 8
Goku and vegeta base 6
Piccolo 6.5
Special Beam cannon anywhere between 8-9
Botamo 4
Frost first form 4
Frost assualt form 5.5
Frost final form 6.8