Darkton's Cell Arc Time-Travel Flowchart!

[dbgtFO]

I have to maintain that, that theory is too crazy and nonsensical for me, even if the concept is used in other series as well, but then I never liked this idea of timetravel and found it incredibly stupid and nonsensical to begin with, so guess it makes sense, I wouldn't warm to that theory

Here is my chart:

Spoiler:

Timeline 1: original timeline. Trunks travel back creating Timeline 2 ; (read after reading Timeline 2): After returning, Trunks defeats the androids, probably with the remote. But Cell awakens and kills Trunks. Cell travels back in time.

Timeline 2: timeline born out of Trunks time travel. Its events differ from Timeline 1 after the arrival of Freeza. They somehow defeat the androids thanks to Trunks and his help, probably using the remote to shut them off. Trunks returns to his own Timeline, probably with the remote to shut the androids off.

Timeline 3: timeline created by Cell's time travel. This timeline differs in events from Timeline 2 after the arrival of Cell, which is some time before the arrival of Freeza, but the differences are only noticeable after Cell reveals himself. Its important to note that this Timeline is created from Timeline 2, not Timeline 1, hence why it includes the different events of Timeline 2 with the added interference of Cell. This is the main timeline, the one we see in the series. Cell is killed by Gohan and Trunks returns home.

Timeline 4: timeline created by Trunks' attempt to return to Timeline 1 from Timeline 3. Since he tried to return to a point in time before Cell had time travelled, which created Timeline 3, the return of Trunks creates a brand new Timeline so that the paradox is resolved. This is why and how different Timelines are created, by the way. But they only are created when the time travel creates a paradox. Its possible to simply travel between Timelines as long as it doesn't create a paradox. For example, when Trunks returns home after warning about the androids and then simply returns later to that timeline to help against them, there's no temporal paradox, because the timeline already existed and Trunks didn't travel to a problematic moment in time. So that doesn't create a paradox nor a new Timeline. Anyway, like I was saying, Trunks attempt to return creates a new Timeline, Timeline 4. In this one, Trunks is strong enough to kill the androids and Cell with his power.

This is what I agree with, as it simply makes the most sense and solves every issue I have with timelines and such. I'm even throwing out my own belief about how it all fit together, as this simply makes way more sense. This is basically what it should be canonically, but we'll get lucky, if they ever establish it as such.
At least they threw out this garbage:

Spoiler:

Which doesn't even make sense. They have Timeline 2 appearing out of absolutely nowhere!
It's true there has to be a 3rd and 4th timeline, but they really fucked it up royally with not establishing how the third one even came into existence in the first place. It's.. just.. there.
And the fourth timeline with Cell Games with Trunks absent doesn't make sense either, at least not the way Saiga thinks it does.
Here the 4th timeline is the timeline the Trunks, that was killed by Cell, went to. He got the blueprints to shut down the androids and returned home, but then there's a Cell Games in that timeline after he went?? There shouldn't be a Cell in that timeline other than fetus Cell, growing in the lab, as they only note Cell going back to Timeline 1(Main Timeline), meaning the events of Timeline 4 happened before he went back in time, meaning he can't be there in T4 to host the Cell Games like he did in T1.

It's just a clusterfuck and a shame, they could not think this through, like Rereboy has here.

If I was to change a little thing though, I'd say that the reason the timeline splits is because time cannot be reversed(only Whis can and even that's limited), it's always moving forward and so trying to go back only creates another timeline. However it's possible to "link up" with the new timeline, so Trunks can go back and forth between his timeline and the new timeline, without creating a new one, as long as he does not attempt to go back to a time, that has already passed in the new timeline.

This is what happens, when Cell goes back in time. The machine was linked up with the 2nd timeline, but Trunks or Cell inadvertently set the year to 1 year before Freeza and Cold arrived on Earth(there was no way Trunks really wanted to go to that year, so your conclusion is bonkers Mr. Pickle-man!).
Cell's time travel then created an alternate version of timeline 2(the one, where Trunks kills Freeza and Cold) and that's the main timeline we see.
When Trunks returns to the future, what happens is that he wants to return to the year he came from, but as we learned over 3 years had passed from that point, so he creates another timeline, because he travels to a point in time that has already passed, as if he's travelling into the past, like the examples above!

Also Fuck what Cell says about his timeline. Toriyama seriously done goofed here and the only thing I'd actually say makes a bit of sense is his 24 years line. Do the math and I think it makes sense, that 3 years passed in Trunks' timeline before he returned to help out against the androids, just like 3 years passed in the new timeline.
But the official Age numbers are so ingrained, that it's useless at this point to try and change it to something else and this arc has a couple more of errors like this, so I'll give it a pass

[Desassina]

Rereboy's theory is not that different from mine. If you compress those lines in two, or go the the 40 minutes video explanation and do the same, you'll notice that Cell existed before Freeza and King Cold in those two. What changed was Trunks' interference when it should have been Goku killing them, but from that point on, Cell had already arrived with memories of the future that he "came" from. If I may use his image:



You can't say that, in timeline 1, Cell goes to the past after he gets killed, unless there was another, because that's what makes sense when you look from the left to the right. How would timeline 3 even exist if Cell wasn't allowed to travel back? And how would Trunks arrive from that timeline if it was never created in the first place? That's the problem with casual theories.

However, from left to right we know that Cell has always existed before Freeza and King Cold, and that Trunks interfered and killed them, when he came from another time where Goku was the one to do it. You can merge timelines 2 and 3, that Cell has to suddenly exist in timeline 1 as well. It won't change how Trunks has only departed in arrows 2 and 4, to a timeline where he could kill the androids and Cell, and be killed by another: the one who travelled to the past. You can merge timelines 1 and 4 now.

Here's the final result:



Not that different, and it avoids rereboy's mistake of saying that Trunks departed to when Goku should have killed Freeza and King Cold. You can say that:

- in timeline 1, Cell exists in the past from the future and hides underground, until Trunks departs to the past, and arrives back to kill him. He creates timeline 4, where the Cell from the lab departs to the past to create timeline 3, after having killed Trunks.
- in timeline 3, Cell exists in the past as well, and hides, when Trunks interferes by killing Freeza and King Cold, and Krillin destroys the baby Cell in the lab, creating timeline 2, until he is killed by Gohan and Trunks goes back to timeline 1.

[Victorious]

I have to maintain that, that theory is too crazy and nonsensical for me, even if the concept is used in other series as well, but then I never liked this idea of timetravel and found it incredibly stupid and nonsensical to begin with, so guess it makes sense, I wouldn't warm to that theory

DBZ time travel is stupid and lame. I don't even see the point of Trunks 'travelling back in time' as no matter what he does his timeline is screwed....He's basically just travelling to a different universe as far as I'm concerned. A universe that was just like his but he's going to change it. I think the only question is, did he actually create the main timeline? By trying to change the past does he create a split universe? I'd say yeah. But where did Cell's universe come from? lol. And anther crazy thing like I pointed out in Cell's universe Trunks killed Freeza, creating an even more mind boggling inconsistencies. Where do all these universes come from? Is there and original where everything else splits off from?

If time travel does ever become possible, I think it will reveal that Past/Present/and Future are all as real as one another, you can't say the past doesn't exist and the Future hasnt happened yet. It won't be like DBZ. Time in reality is just motion in place. We measure time by motion, the earth spinning around the sun, or the Earth doing a full rotation which we call a day. That's all it is is motion flowing. That's why there is no 'time' separate from Space but rather a unified Spacetime. If Aliens are 15 light years away, and spying on us. They are watching us 15 years ago. But there concept of 'present' or 'now' is no more or less valid than ours. So people who are dead today arent even dead by their concept of present or 'now' because motion travel as finite speed. Crazy shit huhh?

So IMO while someone could travel back in time, it was meant to be. Like If i were to travel back in time with a time machine and impregnate my great grandmother or something, i'd be my own great grandfather. But that wouldn't change anything because it was always like that and was meant to be. You coudnt do something that absolutely contradicted known facts about the past. That IMO is how time travel would work. So yeah how Terminator 1 does it, how Jon Conner saids Kyle Reese back in time [who's younger than him], and Kyle Reese ends up being his father. There's nothing contradictory about that. [I haven't seen the other Terminators past 1-3 so if all that went away or changed don't tell me cause I don't care, lol].

[Darkton]

What kind of sleeping giant have I inadvertently unleashed?!

At this point my time-travel theory has condensed to something much simpler: The Cell Arc is badly written, Toriyama didn't think about it that hard, why should we?

[Victorious]

I believe in movie 9 btw it's stated that Trunks returns from the past. So it can't exist in a universe where he never left after the Cell Games. Only in a universe where he leaves after the Cell Games only to come back.

[Victorious]

Regarding the Trunks that Cell kills. If the Trunks that Cell killed really went to a mystery timeline why does Cell when stealing his time machine end up in the main timeline? So i don't think that Trunks had travelled back in time yet. Or else we would have had 2 Future Trunks in the main timeline.

[dbgtFO]

Spoiler:

You can't say that, in timeline 1, Cell goes to the past after he gets killed, unless there was another, because that's what makes sense when you look from the left to the right. How would timeline 3 even exist if Cell wasn't allowed to travel back? And how would Trunks arrive from that timeline if it was never created in the first place? That's the problem with casual theories.

I think you've misunderstood something here. Cell doesn't go to the past after getting killed, of course that wouldn't make sense!
What happens is: Cell kills Trunks, tries to go back to timeline 2(the one Future Trunks got blueprints from to defeat the androids), but since he goes back further in time, he creates another timeline off of timeline 2, which as a result has a duplicate of Future Trunks and is the one we know as the main timeline.
When this duplicate Trunks tries to go back to his future, he creates yet another timeline, because he, like Cell, before him tries to return to a time, that has already passed.
Edit: I actually disagree with Rereboy here, as I believe Trunks already here splits the timelines and creates his happy future and not, when he travels back after Gohan beat Cell.
So we have 4 timelines,

• 1: the original, where Trunks gets killed by Cell after having shut down the androids,
• 2: the one, where Trunks got the blueprints to shut down the androids,
• 3: the main timeline, that is a duplicate of 2(and thus with duplicate Future Trunks as well), but with Cell hiding underground and
• 4: the one, where Future Trunks gets a happy ending.

BTW Dessasina, what tools do you use to create those charts? Paint? Or something more advanced?

But where did Cell's universe come from? lol. And anther crazy thing like I pointed out in Cell's universe Trunks killed Freeza, creating an even more mind boggling inconsistencies. Where do all these universes come from? Is there and original where everything else splits off from?

Ok, so thinking things through, if we really are going to take Cell at his word, then it would mean, that even though Trunks tried to make a better timeline, he failed and everyone must have died and put Trunks of the new timeline in pretty much the same situation as the original.
Cell couldn't find the androids, so Trunks of that new timeline must have found a way to defeat them somehow, maybe he too used the time-machine to create yet another timeline and after his adventures were over in that timeline, Cell killed him and created the main timeline, which ironically means, that the created timelines don't really get a happy ending until Cell interferes

Regarding the Trunks that Cell kills. If the Trunks that Cell killed really went to a mystery timeline why does Cell when stealing his time machine end up in the main timeline? So i don't think that Trunks had travelled back in time yet. Or else we would have had 2 Future Trunks in the main timeline.

Because Cell went even further back in time, causing a split, because that time had already passed in the mystery timeline. The Trunks we get in the main timeline is thus a duplicate of the original Future Trunks, rather than a Trunks from a different timeline. Basically Future Trunks got duplicated, because he was part of the history of the mystery timeline, which Cell tried to travel to.

[rereboy]

Desassina, it's not really a mistake on my part since I'm aware of that.

Cell saga has some obvious plotholes, like the fact that Trunks said that the androids from his future were #19 and #20 in the manga, only to state that they actually #17 and #18 later on, without him even knowing any #19 or #20 at all.

If we didn't treat that as a plothole, we also would have to try to explain that difference with a time travel theory. But people don't usually do that, because they just consider it a plothole.

On that note, to me, the fact that Cell mentions that it was Trunks who killed Freeza and Cold in his timeline instead of Goku is, in my view, also a plothole, a mistake by Toriyama, just like the fact that Trunks said that the androids from his future were #19 and #20 in the manga only to then state that they actually #17 and #18.

There is no viable way, IMO, to explain a timeline that is just like Trunks' timeline but where Freeza and Cold were killed by Trunks, as well to explain everything else in relation to that, without resorting to incredible amounts of assumptions and complexity between the timelines, and almost surely ending up with more than 4 timelines. And even then, any logical explanation is doubtful. How could a timeline, where Trunks was the one who killed Freeza and Cold, which means that Trunks changed the past and tried to save Goku from his disease, end up pretty much exactly like the one from Trunks comes from?

If we treat the fact that Cell stated that Freeza and Cold were killed by Trunks as a plothole, a mistake, and it was really Goku who killed them, then, suddenly, it all makes much more sense. Cell's timeline is Trunks' timeline and everything works as explained in the chart I posted.

While I fully admit that it requires the assumption that what Cell stated was a plothole, a mistake, I believe that what I stated is the theory that resorts less on assumptions and excessive complexity to fit the series. Others may try to also explain that, but, because they do, they end up having to resort to even more assumptions and complexity which doesn't really work, in my view, because I don't imagine that what Toriyama had in mind was anything nearly as complex as that. Imo, what Toriyama had in mind was probably what I stated or something very close to it, but he made some mistakes with it, like he did when he has Trunks call his androids as #19 and #20. Not to mention, that they may try to explain that but they don't try to explain why Trunks mentioned #19 or #20, which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to explain it all.

Also, "casual theories".... . I'm not even going to comment on that.

In any case, this has all been debated before in this forum. In particular, I've already presented my thoughts on it on several topics, like this one, if anyone is interested in checking it out: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=25904

Edit: I actually disagree with Rereboy here, as I believe Trunks already here splits the timelines and creates his happy future and not, when he travels back after Gohan beat Cell.
So we have 4 timelines,

• 1: the original, where Trunks gets killed by Cell after having shut down the androids,
• 2: the one, where Trunks got the blueprints to shut down the androids,
• 3: the main timeline, that is a duplicate of 2(and thus with duplicate Future Trunks as well), but with Cell hiding underground and
• 4: the one, where Future Trunks gets a happy ending.

I couldn't understand what your disagreement was. What you stated is basically my theory.

[dbgtFO]

Edit: I actually disagree with Rereboy here, as I believe Trunks already here splits the timelines and creates his happy future and not, when he travels back after Gohan beat Cell.
So we have 4 timelines,

• 1: the original, where Trunks gets killed by Cell after having shut down the androids,
• 2: the one, where Trunks got the blueprints to shut down the androids,
• 3: the main timeline, that is a duplicate of 2(and thus with duplicate Future Trunks as well), but with Cell hiding underground and
• 4: the one, where Future Trunks gets a happy ending.

I couldn't understand what your disagreement was. What you stated is basically my theory.

Yes, I basically agree with your theory, though where we differ is, when the 4th timeline(Future Trunks' happy ending) was created. To my memory you have the 4th timeline created after Gohan kills Cell and Future Trunks makes his final trip, killing the androids and Cell, before getting his happy ending.
I think it's created as soon as duplicate Future Trunks tries to return to his timeline after warning Goku about the androids.

[rereboy]

Edit: I actually disagree with Rereboy here, as I believe Trunks already here splits the timelines and creates his happy future and not, when he travels back after Gohan beat Cell.
So we have 4 timelines,

• 1: the original, where Trunks gets killed by Cell after having shut down the androids,
• 2: the one, where Trunks got the blueprints to shut down the androids,
• 3: the main timeline, that is a duplicate of 2(and thus with duplicate Future Trunks as well), but with Cell hiding underground and
• 4: the one, where Future Trunks gets a happy ending.

I couldn't understand what your disagreement was. What you stated is basically my theory.

Yes, I basically agree with your theory, though where we differ is when the 4th timeline(Future Trunks' happy ending) was created. To my memory you have the 4th timeline created after Gohan kills Cell and Future Trunks makes his final trip killing the androids and Cell, before getting his happy ending.
I think it's created as soon as duplicate Future Trunks tries to return to his timeline after warning Goku about the androids.

But why would that journey create a paradox and thus create another timeline?

I put the creation of the 4th timeline on that moment because Trunks, by traveling to a point in that Timeline before Cell had traveled back, it creates a paradox. The interference of Trunks would have altered the events that made Trunks be exactly how he was at the moment of that interference. That's why there's a paradox, and thus a new timeline emerges.

When Trunks goes back to his timeline, presumably, he goes back to a moment just after he had traveled back, so there's no paradox created.

EDIT: anyway, the discussion is actually making me reconsider some things. I think I've noticed a way that doesn't require many assumptions to work, and that doesn't require to assume that what Cell said was a plothole. I'm going to make a topic about it later on the day.

With some luck I will have an updated version of my theory that makes even more sense within the series, without assuming too much or being too complex.

[dbgtFO]

But why would that journey create a paradox and thus create another timeline?

refer to my post at the top of this page, where i disagreed with why timelines are made.
sorry , i'm on my Phone.

EDIT: anyway, the discussion is actually making me reconsider some things. I think I've noticed a way that doesn't require many assumptions to work, and that doesn't require to assume that what Cell said was a plothole. I'm going to make a topic about it later on the day.

With some luck I will have an updated version of my theory that makes even more sense within the series, without assuming too much or being too complex.

So basically like the one i speculated about with victorius?
Looking forward to it!

[Desassina]

Here's a last attempt that goes back to my previous scheme. The rule is that whenever someone arrives in the past, he creates an alternate timeline, and that returning puts him on the previous timeline relative to the new one.



So, for Trunks to have arrived in a new timeline, when he hadn't interfered in Freeza and King Cold's death (Goku did), means that Cell was the first to split the timeline. Trunks arrives to one timeline that was already split, and branches it even further by killing Freeza and King Cold. He goes back to his time and returns after 3 years have passed, which means that this timeline (3rd from the top) splits into a 4th where Gohan kills Cell. Trunks departs from this to his time, which is the 3rd (according to the rule) from which Cell departs to timeline 1 after killing Trunks.

Now, here's the interesting thing: if you use superposition of the timelines, you know that Cell was in all others, and that Trunks was in past of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. I'll post their superposition based on this scheme later, but the important thing to retain is that Cell has now departed from a timeline where Trunks killed Freeza and King Cold.

[Victorious]

If Goku killed Freeza in Cell's timeline that would mean Cell's timeline just 'exists' on it's own, right?. I don't like that idea. We can explain the main timeline being created by either Cell or Future Trunks timetravel. So I think 'a' Future Trunks needs to kill Freeza in Cell's timeline. And if it's shown in the manga why not? This would make Cell's timeline an offshoot. So the question is, is there an original timeline ? And who created the main timeline? Cell or Future Trunks?

[Desassina]

Wait for the superposition of the timelines. It's going to make things clearer, but what we have now is Cell departing from a timeline where Trunks was the one to kill Freeza and King Cold. Goku having killed them happened after Cell split what could have been the "original" timeline (in a time travel paradox, there's no such thing as the original).

[dbgtFO]

Dessasina once again I have to ask, are you making the charts in paint or in another program?

[Victorious]

Here's one I made in paint just now. This is more a Parallel universe model, not a 'superposition' mode like how Darkton made.

Anyway, I tried to make as little timelines as possible, and only have 1 'original' while all others having a causality by a time traveler. The original is Future Trunks timeline. I actually have Future Trunks having more adventures AFTER he returned to his timeline and killed the Androids and Cell. Lol lots of funny conjectures here. But this way I don't have to create 10 different timelines or whatever, just as minimal as possible. The big black arrows mean causality, that this timeline causes another timeline. The small colored arrows just mean travel flow by an individual to the various timelines.

Another thing is I'm STILL not sure that the Trunks that was born in Cell's timeline must have travelled to the past creating another timeline. We know he had created a time machine and somehow deactivated the Androids, BUT is it absolutely stated he already already travelled back before Cell killed him? I can't remember. But I included it as well in case it did happen.

Feel free poking all the holes you want in it, this is just a rough draft. I thought about it for well over an hour though, lol

[Desassina]

Dessasina once again I have to ask, are you making the charts in paint or in another program?

Sorry if I haven't noticed your question. I do them in Inkscape, which is a free and open source vector graphics program. You can achieve the same result with Power Point, depending on what version you have.

[dbgtFO]

Dessasina once again I have to ask, are you making the charts in paint or in another program?

Sorry if I haven't noticed your question. I do them in Inkscape, which is a free and open source vector graphics program. You can achieve the same result with Power Point, depending on what version you have.

Thanks! I'll check it out and see, if it's to my liking.

[rereboy]

But why would that journey create a paradox and thus create another timeline?

refer to my post at the top of this page, where i disagreed with why timelines are made.
sorry , i'm on my Phone.

EDIT: anyway, the discussion is actually making me reconsider some things. I think I've noticed a way that doesn't require many assumptions to work, and that doesn't require to assume that what Cell said was a plothole. I'm going to make a topic about it later on the day.

With some luck I will have an updated version of my theory that makes even more sense within the series, without assuming too much or being too complex.

So basically like the one i speculated about with victorius?
Looking forward to it!

As promised, I made a topic: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=33479

[Desassina]

Here it is, as I promised. The superposition of the timelines, going from 4 instances to just 2.

Spoiler:

Eventually, one of them is going to fit our needs, with the rules being different, yet similar.