Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

I was thinking, could it be that because Piccolo was accumulating ki for the Makankosappo that is body was able to resists Frost's attacks?

I know Raditz said that the ki was concentrated on his finger tips but Piccolo could have perfected the attack to allow this.

I don't think so, because his ability to do that is never implied anywhere. In general I actually theorize the scouter just reads offensive power, and that defensive power and speed are a separate but usually very similar stat (exceptions abound, such as the three middle Ginyus). That's why the number shoots up when someone's charging an attack, even though I'm pretty sure if Raditz wanted to one-shot Piccolo he still could have done it.

[apex_pretador]

anyone noticed how they are keeping buu away from the fights so that the power levels / tiers can be altered flexibly? So that there remains an ambiguity in power. Same for gotenks

[Lionel]

In your opinion.

Of course, in spite of general surprise to the degree in which it's compelling Nail to describe Piccolo's newly gained power as being "unbelievable" while lamenting that it won't be enough, his actual numerical estimate would come out to a flimsy number that's not even comparable to the people whom Nail was already left unimpressed by previously. And what is the criteria for impressive power in this context then? 10,000? Something that's even more incongruously lower?

And the guy he's encountering now was 1/5 as strong as a Saibaman last he heard.

I don't recall Nail ever hearing any specifics about the Child of Katatz's power or anything specifically relating to it except that he was killed by a Saiyan and that it was divided by two when their dualistic natures separated.

It's clearly not meant literally, as the original Nameless Namek was clearly far more than twice as strong as King Piccolo.

Where was this stated? From what I'm reading of Guru's recount of his life, the Child of Katatz was an infant when he made it to Earth. And unless he had some unknown means to increase his power or it simply grew naturally to its original Namekian extent, environmental stimuli would have limited his growth just as it did with Goku in the original DB and beginning of Z Gohan. By interplanetary standards, the Earth doesn't contain fighters who are all too powerful. This is due in part to the original standards for martial artists whom even the strongest could only boast a power level over 100.

There's not even a retcon here, just people making the most illogical assumptions they can. So no, you don't get to entirely forget about everything established before this point.

Illogical assumptions because of interpreting Babidi's and Elder Kai's contextual wording for what it is? That these characters have actually been pushed beyond their conceivable limits in that specific time-frame but are now being retroactively done away with for the convenience of this new series? Or how about Vegeta's admission of perpetual inferiority due to Goku being a "greater genius" in spite of having endured greater training?

It's perfectly acceptable for these characters to deny their own words and the words of others later down the road, but again we have this two-faced double standard that dictates characters like Piccolo are bound to an absolutistic limit of power even while they're proven to defy expectation in their own right?

With zenkais. Does Piccolo have zenkais? Does he have any new power-up that would explain such an illogical development?

In the time frame of the Namek arc, you mean? Yes, it's King Kai's who is following a clear pattern of greater return for the other characters that followed in Goku's footsteps with the same training methods which Nail outright reinforces. If you meant afterwards in the present arc, then Gohan who is no stranger to consistently overtaking his peers in shorter periods of time going from the Saiyan to Freeza and then all of the way up until Cell where he was greater than everyone in spite of being a dark horse contestant at the Cell Games who probably wasn't even stronger than Base Trunks yet at the beginning of the arc.

I'll grant that it doesn't put Piccolo in the same bracket as Goku and Vegeta, but to be arguing over whether this training was enough to even put him over Mr Buu is ridiculous, in my opinion.

[LowRyder2005]

So yeah, I really am curious; are you a Majin Buu fan?

Fan of this or that character, I believe he is being perfectly logical with his argumentations.

I'm starting to think that the problem is the "Gohan is as strong or stronger than what he was before he lost power". There are at least three critical flaws with the logic leading to this conclusion:

1. Gohan may have simply changed hairstyles from one saga to another (besides, let's be honest: no one liked his dorky bowlcut-ish hairdo and I wouldn't be surprised if TOEI wanted to get rid of it as sure as possible - especially if they wanted to make Gohan relevant again), therefore he was sparring with Piccolo in base form.
2. Gohan heavily implies he is not at his all-time peak himself: he talks as if he is still getting the "basics" done with Piccolo's help compared to the level he was against Freeza.
So, he may be 80% of his normal power or 10% of his normal power as far as we are concerned. And what if he didn't lose simply his Ultimate and Super Saiyan 2 form, but some power in his base throughout BOG and ROF?
3. We have no idea if they were both fighting at 100% anyway, or "seriously" if you prefer. What if Gohan was sparring at 10% or some other low percentage and Piccolo at 100%? Gohan in the pre-Android Saga was seen sparring with Super Saiyan Goku in one of the chapters' introduction pages... yet he wasn't in Super Saiyan's Goku dimension at all.

In any way, there is no way to prove that the Gohan that sparred with Piccolo is as strong or stronger than what he was against Super Buu or even that Piccolo is his equal. Which is something, again, some people here are treating as a fact.
Moreover, another issue with the training scene "proving Piccolo AND Gohan are stronger than ever": Goku sees Gohan fighting at a Ultimate or stronger than Ultimate level, and he is still mostly concerned about making just Piccolo join them?
It's not until Gohan willfully offers his cooperation that he considers bringing him with them. Maybe he thought he wouldn't care anyway, but still... if they're equal, like some people think, it definitely makes up for a strange sequence of characters' actions. Goku didn't want to bring Gohan because of something we could sum up as "he lost his fighting spirit", but he didn't have to wait for Gohan to tell him: if he had seen was stronger than ever it was surely proof enough Gohan had regained it.

Besides, no one is talking like Piccolo can't overcome his limits: some people are just addressing the flaw of the extent and how quickly he is supposed to be able to overcome aforementioned limits in the series' narrative coherence.

If he got suddenly stronger than Vegito in a week (or six months) by training like he usually does, when after 10 years he most likely couldn't even reach the Full Power Super Saiyan level, it would be felt as poor writing by some. Some people, pages ago, cited the "Namekian Book of Legends": it's just a matter of this or that plot-device. If you put things in perspective:

- Saiyan Saga: Piccolo went to surpass Goku's 400 with additional training than Goku's.
- Namek Saga: Piccolo went from 3500 to unknown (possibly Ginyu Squad tier). Then he gets a massive boost thanks to Nail.
- Android Saga: Piccolo went from 2nd Form Freeza to unknown (possibly 70% Freeza) training with Super Saiyan Goku. Then he gets a massive boost thanks to Kami.
- Buu Saga (10 years later): Piccolo trains on his own and he is still much weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Following this logic and progressions: the most similar case would be the Android Saga, and Piccolo would have had to be about as strong as Super Buu (maybe) if he had trained with Ultimate Gohan at his all-time peak. But he had trained with a Gohan who was - and possibly still is - at a level far below that.

[LowRyder2005]

anyone noticed how they are keeping buu away from the fights so that the power levels / tiers can be altered flexibly? So that there remains an ambiguity in power. Same for gotenks

Yes, and this is a most compelling point in my eyes. I do think it mostly goes to reinforce the "Buu and Gotenks are stronger than everyone minus the god-tiers" idea, and that they've been shoved aside to have other characters' shine from an out-of-universe perspective, though.
Otherwise, what would the loss for TOEI be? It would simply make the villain appear good and get people excited: they did it to hype Beerus, after all.

Heck, I'm actually starting to think that - given that there's an inherent ambiguity with the Saiyan Beyond God vs. Super Saiyan from BOG debate - that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks or Good Buu might have beaten Fourth Form Freeza in ROF according to TOEI's own framework and they felt the need to make them disappear from the fight; the whole "Gohan is weak" now would have some purpose too.

[Bullza]

But going by the movies we know that base Goku is drastically more powerful than Buu. Buu shouldn't have been able to stand a chance against Final Form Frieza.

I don't see why the series would have changed the intended power levels up.

[LowRyder2005]

But going by the movies we know that base Goku is drastically more powerful than Buu. Buu shouldn't have been able to stand a chance against Final Form Frieza.

I don't see why the series would have changed the intended power levels up.

Yeah, or rather, it's heavily implied - although not directly stated - he is stronger than ever in base form already. And if he is stronger than, say, his Super Saiyan 3, he is already above Good Buu by a considerable margin. That's where my concern lies and why I think the "on/off" switch for God ki is probably the most suitable explanation.

[RandomGuy96]

Of course, in spite of general surprise to the degree in which it's compelling Nail to describe Piccolo's newly gained power as being "unbelievable" while lamenting that it won't be enough, his actual numerical estimate would come out to a flimsy number that's not even comparable to the people whom Nail was already left unimpressed by previously. And what is the criteria for impressive power in this context then? 10,000? Something that's even more incongruously lower?

There's no "criteria for impressive power". He simply has to be way stronger than Nail thought he was going to be. Considering that the only level that Nail could have been familiar with is that of Piccolo Daimao, that would still be the case even if he didn't gain any strength at all (though he did, by his own word).

I don't recall Nail ever hearing any specifics about the Child of Katatz's power or anything specifically relating to it except that he was killed by a Saiyan and that it was divided by two when their dualistic natures separated.

He didn't. But the whole point of him being impressed by Piccolo's power is that Piccolo's way stronger than Nail thought he was going to be, e.g. "what kind of training did you do?". For this to be the case he already must have had some idea of the strength of the Nameless Namek's two halves. If he was even remotely accurate than even 23rd Budokai Piccolo would blow his predictions out of the water. So again that doesn't mean much.

Where was this stated?

Do you believe that the original Nameless Namek was less than half as strong as a Saibaman? If you do that's very clearly wrong, as Guru thought that he would've been too strong for any saiyan even though he didn't know that Piccolo had grown stronger.

From what I'm reading of Guru's recount of his life, the Child of Katatz was an infant when he made it to Earth. And unless he had some unknown means to increase his power or it simply grew naturally to its original Namekian extent, environmental stimuli would have limited his growth just as it did with Goku in the original DB and beginning of Z Gohan. By interplanetary standards, the Earth doesn't contain fighters who are all too powerful. This is due in part to the original standards for martial artists whom even the strongest could only boast a power level over 100.

Except in your quote Guru says that "diminished by half the genius power he was gifted at birth". Environmental stimuli wouldn't factor in.

In the time frame of the Namek arc, you mean? Yes, it's King Kai's who is following a clear pattern of greater return for the other characters that followed in Goku's footsteps with the same training methods which Nail outright reinforces. If you meant afterwards in the present arc, then Gohan who is no stranger to consistently overtaking his peers in shorter periods of time going from the Saiyan to Freeza and then all of the way up until Cell where he was greater than everyone in spite of being a dark horse contestant at the Cell Games who probably wasn't even stronger than Base Trunks yet at the beginning of the arc.

So, no, in other words, no? All these characters you brought up had specific reasons why they jumped in power so quickly, and it was made explicit. What possible excuse does Piccolo have to go from much, much weaker than SS Gohan (when six months ago he was an ant compared to Kaioshin) to much, much stronger than SS3 Goku in not even a week of training after ten years of training did jack for him? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Illogical assumptions because of interpreting Babidi's and Elder Kai's contextual wording for what it is? That these characters have actually been pushed beyond their conceivable limits in that specific time-frame but are now being retroactively done away with for the convenience of this new series? Or how about Vegeta's admission of perpetual inferiority due to Goku being a "greater genius" in spite of having endured greater training?

It's perfectly acceptable for these characters to deny their own words and the words of others later down the road, but again we have this two-faced double standard that dictates characters like Piccolo are bound to an absolutistic limit of power even while they're proven to defy expectation in their own right?

Yes, illogical assumptions. Like assuming a few days sparring can take someone from Cell Jr tier to... what, Super Buu tier? Especially when, going by one of the only two fights we've seen from him so far, he's still demonstrably around the level of friggin' base Gohan.

Piccolo hasn't been proven to have reached any level. Piccolo fans are just making things up, like him beating Ultimate Gohan, or Gohan in base/SS randomly being as strong as he was when Ultimate now, or Piccolo getting a hundred times stronger in a few days being a normal thing for him.

I'll grant that it doesn't put Piccolo in the same bracket as Goku and Vegeta, but to be arguing over whether this training was enough to even put him over Mr Buu is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Arguing that he's anywhere near Mr. Buu's level because he did a week of sparring is about as ridiculous in mine. But not quite as ridiculous as arguing he's Ultimate Gohan tier or even low level Beerus tier.

Other than that, I agree with everything LowRyder said. Goku goes to recruit Mr. Buu first. Vegeta's really bummed when it turns out Mr. Buu can't compete (after he brushed off Trunks' offer to compete), even though by this logic Buu would literally be as useful as Mr. Satan when compared to Piccolo or Gohan. No one comments on Gohan supposedly regaining his Ultimate power-up. Gohan still has relaxed expression and non-enclosed eyes, so he's definitely not Ultimate. No one comments on Piccolo becoming a hundred times stronger. Previous story arcs make no sense if Piccolo was hiding all this power and could get to this level just be sparring for like four days. The evidence for Piccolo being so insanely powerful is simply very slim, nowhere near strong enough to override all the contradictions in that stance.

[Neon Z]

But going by the movies we know that base Goku is drastically more powerful than Buu. Buu shouldn't have been able to stand a chance against Final Form Frieza.

I don't see why the series would have changed the intended power levels up.

Yeah, or rather, it's heavily implied - although not directly stated - he is stronger than ever in base form already. And if he is stronger than, say, his Super Saiyan 3, he is already above Good Buu by a considerable margin. That's where my concern lies and why I think the "on/off" switch for God ki is probably the most suitable explanation.

The idea of an on/off switch could work back with the movies, but Super goes out of its way to point out that somehow Goku just converted the God Ki into part of his own natural Ki, with people being able to sense him in spite of his power's lack of change after he runs out of SSJ God time. It's only when he turns into SSJB that we see references to him using God Ki again. So, his amplified base and SSJ already are Goku without God power. There's nothing indicating that he's suppressing all the ki that he gained at that point in order to simulate the power that he'd have if he never turned into a SSJ God in the first place.

So, no, in other words, no? All these characters you brought up had specific reasons why they jumped in power so quickly, and it was made explicit. What possible excuse does Piccolo have to go from much, much weaker than SS Gohan (when six months ago he was an ant compared to Kaioshin) to much, much stronger than SS3 Goku in not even a week of training after ten years of training did jack for him? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not getting into that argument, but you're using a completely wrong timescale there. There are at least 8 months between RoF's ending and the current arc, due to the use of the Earth Dragonballs in the beginning of each arc.

Also, Piccolo did have one randomly big jump in power before - when he went from bellow base Vegeta to stronger than a tired SSJ Vegeta in the beginning of the Android arc through those 3 years of training. Remember, tired SSJ Vegeta bluffs in order to make Gero escape, while Piccolo easily trashes him afterwards.

[namekiansaiyan]

Of course, in spite of general surprise to the degree in which it's compelling Nail to describe Piccolo's newly gained power as being "unbelievable" while lamenting that it won't be enough, his actual numerical estimate would come out to a flimsy number that's not even comparable to the people whom Nail was already left unimpressed by previously. And what is the criteria for impressive power in this context then? 10,000? Something that's even more incongruously lower?

There's no "criteria for impressive power". He simply has to be way stronger than Nail thought he was going to be. Considering that the only level that Nail could have been familiar with is that of Piccolo Daimao, that would still be the case even if he didn't gain any strength at all (though he did, by his own word).

I don't recall Nail ever hearing any specifics about the Child of Katatz's power or anything specifically relating to it except that he was killed by a Saiyan and that it was divided by two when their dualistic natures separated.

He didn't. But the whole point of him being impressed by Piccolo's power is that Piccolo's way stronger than Nail thought he was going to be, e.g. "what kind of training did you do?". For this to be the case he already must have had some idea of the strength of the Nameless Namek's two halves. If he was even remotely accurate than even 23rd Budokai Piccolo would blow his predictions out of the water. So again that doesn't mean much.

Where was this stated?

Do you believe that the original Nameless Namek was less than half as strong as a Saibaman? If you do that's very clearly wrong, as Guru thought that he would've been too strong for any saiyan even though he didn't know that Piccolo had grown stronger.

From what I'm reading of Guru's recount of his life, the Child of Katatz was an infant when he made it to Earth. And unless he had some unknown means to increase his power or it simply grew naturally to its original Namekian extent, environmental stimuli would have limited his growth just as it did with Goku in the original DB and beginning of Z Gohan. By interplanetary standards, the Earth doesn't contain fighters who are all too powerful. This is due in part to the original standards for martial artists whom even the strongest could only boast a power level over 100.

Except in your quote Guru says that "diminished by half the genius power he was gifted at birth". Environmental stimuli wouldn't factor in.

In the time frame of the Namek arc, you mean? Yes, it's King Kai's who is following a clear pattern of greater return for the other characters that followed in Goku's footsteps with the same training methods which Nail outright reinforces. If you meant afterwards in the present arc, then Gohan who is no stranger to consistently overtaking his peers in shorter periods of time going from the Saiyan to Freeza and then all of the way up until Cell where he was greater than everyone in spite of being a dark horse contestant at the Cell Games who probably wasn't even stronger than Base Trunks yet at the beginning of the arc.

So, no, in other words, no? All these characters you brought up had specific reasons why they jumped in power so quickly, and it was made explicit. What possible excuse does Piccolo have to go from much, much weaker than SS Gohan (when six months ago he was an ant compared to Kaioshin) to much, much stronger than SS3 Goku in not even a week of training after ten years of training did jack for him? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Illogical assumptions because of interpreting Babidi's and Elder Kai's contextual wording for what it is? That these characters have actually been pushed beyond their conceivable limits in that specific time-frame but are now being retroactively done away with for the convenience of this new series? Or how about Vegeta's admission of perpetual inferiority due to Goku being a "greater genius" in spite of having endured greater training?

It's perfectly acceptable for these characters to deny their own words and the words of others later down the road, but again we have this two-faced double standard that dictates characters like Piccolo are bound to an absolutistic limit of power even while they're proven to defy expectation in their own right?

Yes, illogical assumptions. Like assuming a few days sparring can take someone from Cell Jr tier to... what, Super Buu tier? Especially when, going by one of the only two fights we've seen from him so far, he's still demonstrably around the level of friggin' base Gohan.

Piccolo hasn't been proven to have reached any level. Piccolo fans are just making things up, like him beating Ultimate Gohan, or Gohan in base/SS randomly being as strong as he was when Ultimate now, or Piccolo getting a hundred times stronger in a few days being a normal thing for him.

I'll grant that it doesn't put Piccolo in the same bracket as Goku and Vegeta, but to be arguing over whether this training was enough to even put him over Mr Buu is ridiculous, in my opinion.

Arguing that he's anywhere near Mr. Buu's level because he did a week of sparring is about as ridiculous in mine. But not quite as ridiculous as arguing he's Ultimate Gohan tier or even low level Beerus tier.

Other than that, I agree with everything LowRyder said. Goku goes to recruit Mr. Buu first. Vegeta's really bummed when it turns out Mr. Buu can't compete (after he brushed off Trunks' offer to compete), even though by this logic Buu would literally be as useful as Mr. Satan when compared to Piccolo or Gohan. No one comments on Gohan supposedly regaining his Ultimate power-up. Gohan still has relaxed expression and non-enclosed eyes, so he's definitely not Ultimate. No one comments on Piccolo becoming a hundred times stronger. Previous story arcs make no sense if Piccolo was hiding all this power and could get to this level just be sparring for like four days. The evidence for Piccolo being so insanely powerful is simply very slim, nowhere near strong enough to override all the contradictions in that stance.

Gohan and Piccolo have been training for months not days.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, his amplified base and SSJ already are Goku without God power.

Goku & Vegeta may not have God ki in their regular & Super Saiyan forms, but they still have the power of Super Saiyan God. So, it's possible that Goku & Vegeta can turn on & off the SSG power.

[RandomGuy96]

But going by the movies we know that base Goku is drastically more powerful than Buu. Buu shouldn't have been able to stand a chance against Final Form Frieza.

I don't see why the series would have changed the intended power levels up.

Yeah, or rather, it's heavily implied - although not directly stated - he is stronger than ever in base form already. And if he is stronger than, say, his Super Saiyan 3, he is already above Good Buu by a considerable margin. That's where my concern lies and why I think the "on/off" switch for God ki is probably the most suitable explanation.

The idea of an on/off switch could work back with the movies, but Super goes out of its way to point out that somehow Goku just converted the God Ki into part of his own natural Ki, with people being able to sense him in spite of his power's lack of change after he runs out of SSJ God time. It's only when he turns into SSJB that we see references to him using God Ki again. So, his amplified base and SSJ already are Goku without God power. There's nothing indicating that he's suppressing all the ki that he gained at that point in order to simulate the power that he'd have if he never turned into a SSJ God in the first place.

So, no, in other words, no? All these characters you brought up had specific reasons why they jumped in power so quickly, and it was made explicit. What possible excuse does Piccolo have to go from much, much weaker than SS Gohan (when six months ago he was an ant compared to Kaioshin) to much, much stronger than SS3 Goku in not even a week of training after ten years of training did jack for him? That's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm not getting into that argument, but you're using a completely wrong timescale there. There are at least 8 months between RoF's ending and the current arc, due to the use of the Earth Dragonballs in the beginning of each arc.

Also, Piccolo did have one randomly big jump in power before - when he went from bellow base Vegeta to stronger than a tired SSJ Vegeta in the beginning of the Android arc through those 3 years of training. Remember, tired SSJ Vegeta bluffs in order to make Gero escape, while Piccolo easily trashes him afterwards.

Right, forgot about that. In any case that's still a pitifully small amount of time after all that training between Cell and Buu didn't do anything.

We have no idea how strong "tired" SS Vegeta was, all we know is that by this time Piccolo is a lot stronger than the base saiyans. Not to mention, there was a 5 year period of non-stop training between Freeza and Gero, and it still produced a proportionally smaller result for him than what he supposedly got out of eight months of training in Super. Depending on how powerful he actually was by that time (I personally think he might still be weaker than Freeza, based on one of Kami's comments), it wasn't necessarily "random". Plus there's always the possible explanation of him just fusing with someone with high potential.

Furthermore, the big problem with using that as evidence for this supposedly huge power-up is that Piccolo's boost there was preceded by a x8 boost in one year of training between Raditz and Nappa, and followed by a maybe x3-4 boost in one year of (ROSAT) training between Cell turning Perfect and the Cell Games. In other words, at that point Piccolo actually did gain big power-ups in relative short amounts of time, while in the current situation he's coming off off a decade of doing training for little gain. But even then he couldn't just get a hundred times stronger in less than a year. Even if I did assume that he made gains similar to what he made in the Android and Saiyan arcs (e.g. x100 stronger in five years in the former, x8 stronger in one year in the latter), I still wouldn't even have him anywhere near SS3 tier, to say nothing of the levels above that.

[namekiansaiyan]

So, his amplified base and SSJ already are Goku without God power.

Goku & Vegeta may not have God ki in their regular & Super Saiyan forms, but they still have the power of Super Saiyan God. So, it's possible that Goku & Vegeta can turn on & off the SSG power.

How can you not have God ki if you have the power of a Super Saiyan God. They got to the power of a Super Saiyan God by having God ki, you can't switch it on or off.

[RandomGuy96]

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms, both from the massive gaps implied by numerous fights and because of Whis's comment about Beerus's temple. So they can basically be put at any level above a certain minimum.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

How can you not have God ki if you have the power of a Super Saiyan God.

SS Goku against Beerus had the power of Super Saiyan God, but he didn't have God ki.

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms

If that's so, why is base Goku from FnF described as "a Saiyan that has surpassed God"? That's a direct statement showing FnF Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

[Speedster]

If that's so, why is base Goku from FnF described as "a Saiyan that has surpassed God"? That's a direct statement showing FnF Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

Where is that statement exactly made in the FnF arc anime material? Please provide episode number and time. Or do you refer to what a video game says?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If that's so, why is base Goku from FnF described as "a Saiyan that has surpassed God"? That's a direct statement showing FnF Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

Where is that statement exactly made in the FnF arc anime material? Please provide episode number and time. Or do you refer to what a video game says?

It comes from Dragon Ball Heroes, during the time they were promoting the movie.

[Bullza]

It's not exactly a good source is it? Why would the game developers know something that wasn't referred to in the movie, series or script? It's not like Toriyama made a comment on it either.

I wouldn't place much importance on it.

[ZombieVito]

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms, both from the massive gaps implied by numerous fights and because of Whis's comment about Beerus's temple. So they can basically be put at any level above a certain minimum.

You probably won't but I'll ask anyway. Are you going to do an updated BP list on Super?

[RandomGuy96]

How can you not have God ki if you have the power of a Super Saiyan God.

SS Goku against Beerus had the power of Super Saiyan God, but he didn't have God ki.

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms

If that's so, why is base Goku from FnF described as "a Saiyan that has surpassed God"? That's a direct statement showing FnF Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

I don't really care what video games say. Nor do I think that's even specifically a power-related statement.

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms, both from the massive gaps implied by numerous fights and because of Whis's comment about Beerus's temple. So they can basically be put at any level above a certain minimum.

You probably won't but I'll ask anyway. Are you going to do an updated BP list on Super?

Eh... I might, but probably not any time soon. I'm not really interested in Super and have yet to watch every single episode (then again, most of the episodes I missed probably didn't have any useful power-related details in them). Plus things are vague enough that I could spend a while making a Super list only to have a fundamental assumption shattered by an offhand line in the next episode, necessitating another list. Right now I'm just trying to have some idea of the relative strengths, which is hard enough...