Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Neon Z]

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms, both from the massive gaps implied by numerous fights and because of Whis's comment about Beerus's temple. So they can basically be put at any level above a certain minimum.

We see Base Goku punching Beerus blast and stopping it at the end of their battle though. That statement could just indicate that Beerus in Super was holding back much more than the level indicated in the movie.

[RandomGuy96]

Just gonna throw out my "base Goku and Vegeta (and therefore non-Golden Freeza and anyone around their level) really aren't that strong" theory again. We know that they're nothing compared to their actual godly forms, both from the massive gaps implied by numerous fights and because of Whis's comment about Beerus's temple. So they can basically be put at any level above a certain minimum.

We see Base Goku punching Beerus blast and stopping it at the end of their battle though. That statement could just indicate that Beerus in Super was holding back much more than the level indicated in the movie.

Either Beerus was holding back on the blast (rather than his power level being like a hundred times higher than it is in the movie), or Goku's base got weaker over time and at that moment it was still basically the same strength as his SSG.

[LowRyder2005]

The idea of an on/off switch could work back with the movies, but Super goes out of its way to point out that somehow Goku just converted the God Ki into part of his own natural Ki, with people being able to sense him in spite of his power's lack of change after he runs out of SSJ God time. It's only when he turns into SSJB that we see references to him using God Ki again. So, his amplified base and SSJ already are Goku without God power. There's nothing indicating that he's suppressing all the ki that he gained at that point in order to simulate the power that he'd have if he never turned into a SSJ God in the first place.

Well, you could nevertheless see the God ki as something which is added to the mix and makes your level harder and harder to the detect. Like sugar: it makes something sweeter the more you add it to the mix. Keep adding it and it will go up to a point where you can't eat something anymore; in this case the more God ki you add the more you won't be able to sense it.

This is one take. Or maybe, Goku can both freely add his God ki to his base form and fight without unlocking it. Perhaps a picture about how I have been lead, personally, to envision the current state of affairs in my head right now may help:



It's a little convoluted, a little less if you just interpret it as "Goku freely controlling his ki even between his base and Super Saiyan forms". Could definitely be confusing, though, so I dunno if TOEI really thought about something like this.

The gist of the theory is that training with Whis helped Goku mastering his usage of God ki (and, accordingly, the issue of the power consumption of any transformation), and he can now use it in base form without any particular ki strain (a problem endemic to any Super Saiyan form, with stronger forms becoming worse offenders). That makes him "beyond God", or "a Saiyan who surpassed the Super Saiyan God": he can use the God ki and his Super Saiyan God power to amp his base form without too many issues, while in the unmastered state he needs the Vanilla Super Saiyan to fully unlock it. The Super Saiyan Blue on the other hand takes his power beyond in the sense that it's a small multiplicator... going by the Blue/Two near-perfect homophony I chose a *2.

Also, Piccolo did have one randomly big jump in power before - when he went from bellow base Vegeta to stronger than a tired SSJ Vegeta in the beginning of the Android arc through those 3 years of training. Remember, tired SSJ Vegeta bluffs in order to make Gero escape, while Piccolo easily trashes him afterwards.

It wasn't that random though. Piccolo had trained with Super Saiyan Goku. The equivalent here would be Piccolo (1.000.000) training with either Non-SS and Non-Kaioken Goku (3.000.000) from or Vegeta from the same battle (let's say 250.000) and reaching Perfect Cell in six months or a week of training.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't really care what video games say. Nor do I think that's even specifically a power-related statement.

The full statement is "Powers-up into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", which describes Goku's transformation from base to base with SSG power in the game, so there is no doubt that this is a power-related statement.

Besides, it was established since BoG that base Goku with SSG powers was slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and there is no implication that Goku lost any of his power.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't really care what video games say. Nor do I think that's even specifically a power-related statement.

The full statement is "Powers-up into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", which describes Goku's transformation from base to base with SSG power in the game, so there is no doubt that this is a power-related statement.

Besides, it was established since BoG that base Goku with SSG powers was slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and there is no implication that Goku lost any of his power.

How the game makes clear F outfit Goku is stronger than SSG Goku? Is there any powerlevel system to compare the characters in-game?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't really care what video games say. Nor do I think that's even specifically a power-related statement.

The full statement is "Powers-up into a Saiyan who's surpassed God", which describes Goku's transformation from base to base with SSG power in the game, so there is no doubt that this is a power-related statement.

Besides, it was established since BoG that base Goku with SSG powers was slightly weaker than SSG Goku, and there is no implication that Goku lost any of his power.

How the game makes clear F outfit Goku is stronger than SSG Goku? Is there any powerlevel system to compare the characters in-game?

The in-game "power-levels" are useless for in-universe comparisons. The description of base Goku with SSG powers states that Goku is a Saiyan who has surpassed God. How else can this be interpreted?

[Hugo Boss]

The in-game "power-levels" are useless for in-universe comparisons. The description of base Goku with SSG powers states that Goku is a Saiyan who has surpassed God. How else can this be interpreted?

So, why should be using in-game descriptions as if they matter in-universe? I just asked that out of curiosity. If you can't help me, fine.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The in-game "power-levels" are useless for in-universe comparisons. The description of base Goku with SSG powers states that Goku is a Saiyan who has surpassed God. How else can this be interpreted?

So, why should be using in-game descriptions as if they matter in-universe? I just asked that out of curiosity. If you can't help me, fine.

Because the description has almost nothing to do with the in-game mechanics. It describes Goku, not an in-game mechanic, which makes it like a guidebook statement.

[namekiansaiyan]

How long until everyone accepts that unless it is confirmed in the series that God ki can be switched on or off then it has to assumed to be permanently on. Can beerus and Champa switch their God ki off?
So I have it like this:

Whis= Vados
Beerus = Champa
Goku max = Vegeta max
Golden Frieza
Frost = Piccolo
Goku base = Vegeta base
Botamo

[Hugo Boss]

The in-game "power-levels" are useless for in-universe comparisons. The description of base Goku with SSG powers states that Goku is a Saiyan who has surpassed God. How else can this be interpreted?

So, why should be using in-game descriptions as if they matter in-universe? I just asked that out of curiosity. If you can't help me, fine.

Because the description has almost nothing to do with the in-game mechanics. It describes Goku, not an in-game mechanic, which makes it like a guidebook statement.

My concern is if the game makes justice to that description. For example, if [F] Goku has a level inferior to Super Saiyan God's, the description doesn't make sense within game. Isn't that verifiable in any way?

[apex_pretador]

since when are we discussing games power levels?
isn't this DB super PL thread? Or quotes from games have relevence? Because in that case, kid buu is stronger than vegetto.

[LowRyder2005]

How long until everyone accepts that unless it is confirmed in the series that God ki can be switched on or off then it has to assumed to be permanently on. Can beerus and Champa switch their God ki off?

Beerus can control his God ki output near-perfectly and that's pretty much the exact same thing we are implying Goku is doing here.
If I said "it's just that Goku can most likely control his God ki after training with Whis" would you say we have to assume he can't? A situation like that would be well within the scope of what we have grown accustomed with the series so far: after you master some form you can freely control it.

[LowRyder2005]

My concern is if the game makes justice to that description. For example, if [F] Goku has a level inferior to Super Saiyan God's, the description doesn't make sense within game. Isn't that verifiable in any way?

I don't believe they are really useful, because they can vary greatly. I assume you know the old Pokémon Trading Card game, where the same Pokémon had different attacks/HP etc. according to the set? It's more or less the same for DB Heroes.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My concern is if the game makes justice to that description. For example, if [F] Goku has a level inferior to Super Saiyan God's, the description doesn't make sense within game. Isn't that verifiable in any way?

The Super Saiyan God transformation gives a greater boost than the "Saiyan who has surpassed God" transformation in the game, but that doesn't mean that SSG Goku is stronger in the game... I think. I'll ask in the Heroes thread for more info.

since when are we discussing games power levels?
isn't this DB super PL thread? Or quotes from games have relevence? Because in that case, kid buu is stronger than vegetto.

We are not discussing game power levels. We are discussing statements made in video-games.

[namekiansaiyan]

How long until everyone accepts that unless it is confirmed in the series that God ki can be switched on or off then it has to assumed to be permanently on. Can beerus and Champa switch their God ki off?

Beerus can control his God ki output near-perfectly and that's pretty much the exact same thing we are implying Goku is doing here.
If I said "it's just that Goku can most likely control his God ki after training with Whis" would you say we have to assume he can't? A situation like that would be well within the scope of what we have grown accustomed with the series so far: after you master some form you can freely control it.

Everyone is saying Goku has 2 bases where I am saying he only has 1. I am saying his lowest level is God base Goku and then powers up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, assuming that SSG power can't be turned on/off (since it's an unconfirmed theory so far), I go by this:

Vados - Whis - 15
Beerus - Champa - 10
Monaka
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
SSB Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SS Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost
Piccolo - Base Gohan [Champa arc]
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Base Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SSG - SS - Base Goku [BoG] - 6
Final Form Freeza
First Form Frost
Botamo
Enraged SS2 Vegeta [BoG]
First Form Freeza
Ultimate - SS Gohan [BoG]
Majin Boo
SS Gohan [FnF]
Ginyu
Base Gohan [FnF] - Tagoma
Shisami
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]

[namekiansaiyan]

So, assuming that SSG power can't be turned on/off (since it's an unconfirmed theory so far), I go by this:

Vados - Whis - 15
Beerus - Champa - 10
Monaka
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
SSB Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SS Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost
Piccolo - Base Gohan [Champa arc]
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Base Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SSG - SS - Base Goku [BoG] - 6
Final Form Freeza
First Form Frost
Botamo
First Form Freeza
Ultimate - SS Gohan [BoG]
Majin Boo
SS Gohan [FnF]
Ginyu
Base Gohan [FnF] - Tagoma
Shisami
Piccolo [BoG/FnF]

That is basically what I have for this.

[ZombieVito]

Shisami was confirmed to be below Freeza arc Ginyu in Super. Also good luck fitting that many characters between 10 and 6.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shisami was confirmed to be below Freeza arc Ginyu in Super.

Statement?

[ZombieVito]

Sorbet's shock that someone in the army surpassed Ginyu.