Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Sorbet's shock that someone in the army surpassed Ginyu.

He was shocked that Tagoma specifically had power greater than the Ginyu Tokusentai, when he was at Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's revival. There is no reason to assume that Shisami is weaker than he was in the movie.

[dbzfan7]

I personally don't buy video game information, unless it's mentioned in the series itself. Considering how fucked up Super is, it could potentially have been in thought but never mentioned, or never thought of at all when producing it. No way to really know, but wait and see what the show says. For now I just go with my opinion, and wait til the show itself brings me concrete facts.

[ZombieVito]

Why would Sorbet be shocked at Tagoma surpassing Ginyu when he just killed Shisami?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why would Sorbet be shocked at Tagoma surpassing Ginyu when he just killed Shisami?

Because Shisami was caught off guard.

[ZombieVito]

Why would Sorbet be shocked at Tagoma surpassing Ginyu when he just killed Shisami?

Because Shisami was caught off guard.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Doctor.]

Sorbet's shock that someone in the army surpassed Ginyu.

He was shocked that Tagoma specifically had power greater than the Ginyu Tokusentai, when he was at Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's revival. There is no reason to assume that Shisami is weaker than he was in the movie.

Shisami was Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's arrival too. If Shisami got stronger, we would have known.

[ZombieVito]

Sorbet's shock that someone in the army surpassed Ginyu.

He was shocked that Tagoma specifically had power greater than the Ginyu Tokusentai, when he was at Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's revival. There is no reason to assume that Shisami is weaker than he was in the movie.

Shisami was Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's arrival too. If Shisami got stronger, we would have known.

Same logic they used to complain about Piccolo now that I think about it haha.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why would Sorbet be shocked at Tagoma surpassing Ginyu when he just killed Shisami?

Because Shisami was caught off guard.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Shisami was Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's arrival too. If Shisami got stronger, we would have known.

We weren't told of anything in the movie other than he was Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's arrival, yet he was shown to be on par with Piccolo.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My concern is if the game makes justice to that description. For example, if [F] Goku has a level inferior to Super Saiyan God's, the description doesn't make sense within game. Isn't that verifiable in any way?

Turns out that sometimes he is stronger, and some times he isn't:

The two Goku cards that once had access to Saiyan Beyond God end up with a power of 9100 and 11000 when the boost is applied.
The weakest SSG Goku base card has a power of 5800.
The strongest SSG Goku transformation card has a power of 12100.
The weakest SSGSS Goku base card has a power of 6500.
The strongest SSGSS Goku transformation card has a power of 14000.

Like I said before, the in-game battle powers are useless.

[ZombieVito]

Shisami was not there in Toriyama's script. He was one of the powerful mercenaries hired after Freeza's revival. Someone in the movie fucked that up.

[Doctor.]

We weren't told of anything in the movie other than he was Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's arrival, yet he was shown to be on par with Piccolo.

That film is stupid. But, regardless, we were told Tagoma's power increased in the F arc, not Shisami's. Is it that hard to believe that Shisami and Tagoma switched places in terms of power between the film and the arc? Sorbet wouldn't be surprised at Tagoma being stronger than the Ginyu Force (BEFORE POWERING UP) if Shisami was stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That film is stupid. But, regardless, we were told Tagoma's power increased in the F arc, not Shisami's. Is it that hard to believe that Shisami and Tagoma switched places in terms of power between the film and the arc? Sorbet wouldn't be surprised at Tagoma being stronger than the Ginyu Force (BEFORE POWERING UP) if Shisami was stronger.

If you want to go only by Super & ignore the movie, Shisami wasn't said to be on Zarbon/Dodoria level either, so his power could be anywhere below base Gohan.

And it's your opinion that Sorbet wouldn't be surprised at Tagoma being stronger than the Ginyu Tokusentai. I disagree, I believe Sorbet was surprised because he had no idea that Tagoma was even capable of becoming so powerful, while he was aware of Shisami's power.

Besides, Shisami was supposed to be the strongest man in the army until Tagoma trained with Freeza. Why wasn't Sorbet surprised that Tagoma was strong enough to kill him, if it was such a great feat for Tagoma?

[Speedster]

If that's so, why is base Goku from FnF described as "a Saiyan that has surpassed God"? That's a direct statement showing FnF Base Goku > BoG SSG Goku.

Where is that statement exactly made in the FnF arc anime material? Please provide episode number and time. Or do you refer to what a video game says?

It comes from Dragon Ball Heroes, during the time they were promoting the movie.

Dragonball heroes is a non-canon resource and, no, it doesn't count at all as a guidebook. Additionally, here Dragonball Super shamelessly retcons pre-established things of its own source material ... do you thing they would even bother to restrict themselves by a statement that is not in the source material?

Beerus - Champa - 10
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SS Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Final Form Frost
Piccolo - Base Gohan [Champa arc]
Assault Form Frost
Base Goku - Vegeta [Champa arc]
Base Goku - Vegeta [FnF]
SSG - SS - Base Goku [BoG] - 6
Final Form Freeza

The anime itself (which is the highest level of canon source material when it comes to Dragonball Super) in episode 24 (towards the end) flat out establishes that the SSGSS transformation is a “Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”. Also after Goku transforms into a SSGSS, North Kaio remarked in amazement that “He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus-sama planet?”

That automatically disproves the statement of that video game that Goku’s base is “beyond God” which you also assumed it meant “Super Saiyan God”. If Goku in his base was stronger than BoGs SSG then why was Kaio surprised that Goku reached that level of tier only when he turned SSGSS? Why didn't he say anything about base Goku reaching that tier (something that is more impressive actually)?

If you want to go only by Super & ignore the movie, Shisami wasn't said to be on Zarbon/Dodoria level either, so his power could be anywhere below base Gohan.

Sorbet's shock that someone in the army surpassed Ginyu.

He was shocked that Tagoma specifically had power greater than the Ginyu Tokusentai, when he was at Zarbon/Dodoria level before Freeza's revival. There is no reason to assume that Shisami is weaker than he was in the movie.

Of course there is a reason. Multiple reasons actually.

(1) Shisami’s role in the movie was taken by Tagoma in the anime. In the anime Tagoma was the one who trained with Freeza. In the movie Tagoma was dead therefore it must had been Shisami the one who served as Freeza’s sparring partner. So there was a reason why Shisami got a power up in the movie that is no longer applicable in the anime.

(2) Both in the movie AND in the anime (episode 20), when Freeza was resurrected, Sorbet stated that Shisami and Tagoma were Zarbon’s and Dodoria’s level. True that in the anime he doesn't explicitly mention Shisami but he does clearly refer to "Tagoma and the other most outstanding members of the army" which includes Shisami. Tagoma did have special training and achieved a major power up but there is nothing implied or hinted that Shisami did.

(3) When Tagoma powers up and Sorbet measured his power level he was surprised that he surpassed the Ginyu force. Being surprised that a member of his army surpassed that level, means that the rest of his army (which included Shisami) were below that level. Otherwise you have to assume that he severely underestimated Tagoma’s potential in comparison to Shisami’s. I mean if we were to assume that Shisami trained for 4 months (and that alone or with other weaklings) and reached Piccolo's level (a level much higher than that of Freeza on Namek mind you) then why was Sorbet surprised that Tagoma after training for 4 months surpassed Ginyu? So much he underestimates Tagoma? If Sorbet witnessed Shisami surpassing a power level 10,000x higher than the one he started then why was he surprised that Tagoma surpassed a level which is a mere 1.5x-2x than the one he started? That makes no sense especially given that when Sorbet introduced them he held them at the same tier of capabilities and the fact that Tagoma trained with Freeza.

[LowRyder2005]

How long until everyone accepts that unless it is confirmed in the series that God ki can be switched on or off then it has to assumed to be permanently on. Can beerus and Champa switch their God ki off?

Beerus can control his God ki output near-perfectly and that's pretty much the exact same thing we are implying Goku is doing here.
If I said "it's just that Goku can most likely control his God ki after training with Whis" would you say we have to assume he can't? A situation like that would be well within the scope of what we have grown accustomed with the series so far: after you master some form you can freely control it.

Everyone is saying Goku has 2 bases where I am saying he only has 1. I am saying his lowest level is God base Goku and then powers up.

Please, try to understand what I am saying: the "Goku has two bases" is just a rough simplification of "Goku can control his God ki freely now", it has been used just to be more concise.
Let me rephrase: would you have said in Z or Dragon Ball in general that Goku had two, three, or one million bases just because he could raise or lower his power through ki manipulation? You are saying that "Goku can't lower his power below a certain point" and that would be a new one in the series, because that's what they do (and even Godku does) all the time to live among other humans.

What other people are saying in this very thread is that Goku may have access to God ki (now) as a "surplus" he can "pour" into this or that form. So there you have the "uber Base Goku" when Goku uses God ki to amp his base form - in a way that somehow can still be sensed - and when he goes into "full God mode" most can't sense him at all; at the same time, you have the playful Goku who can control his God ki and fight to a level comparable to his Z self. And you can have, of course, the Vanilla Super Saiyan stronger than Goku without using too much of his God ki to power up in base.

This goes accordingly to some of the series' staples: when you master a form, you can control its ki freely. It has been done with the Super Saiyan, I don't see why it couldn't be done with the God ki: we have already seen Beerus do it without much effort.

All of this again, because people find it highly unlikely (and you honestly can't blame them, in my opinion) that Piccolo became God tier after training with an extremely weak Gohan for six months and the fact that Mr. Buu is presented as in a whole 'nother dimension than Piccolo himself; on the other hand, having Piccolo stronger than Fourth Form Freeza or even with the Super Saiyan God may be a condicio sine qua non if you say that the Goku who fought Fourth Form Freeza can't beat Frost.
Saying it would amount to bad writing, or at the very least been portrayed in an extremely poor fashion is not that far off-base.

Why do people still value Buu over Piccolo? Why do Goku and Vegeta act like trolls towards Piccolo when he is basically almost as strong as they are after training with the almighty Whis... when Piccolo did it on his own? Why do they downplay Gohan - never asking him to join until he obstinately tries to take Mr. Buu's place (when he is in fact stronger than Mr. Buu because at least equal to his Chou self in your eyes... or even God tier now for some of you?) Why didn't Piccolo train in the ROSAT for half a day to easily beat Fat Buu... or why didn't he get stronger than Super Saiyan Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Game after entering the same ROSAT?

Honestly, those can potentially be heavy blows to the narrative internal coherence. I may go so far as to say GT could have been bashed for less.

[ZombieVito]

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

[namekiansaiyan]

Please, try to understand what I am saying: the "Goku has two bases" is just a rough simplification of "Goku can control his God ki freely now", it has been used just to be more concise.
Let me rephrase: would you have said in Z or Dragon Ball in general that Goku had two, three, or one million bases just because he could raise or lower his power through ki manipulation? You are saying that "Goku can't lower his power below a certain point" and that would be a new one in the series, because that's what they do all the time to live among other humans.

What other people are saying in this very thread is that Goku may have access to God ki (now) as a "surplus" he can "pour" into this or that form. So there you have the "uber Base Goku" when Goku uses God ki to amp his base form - in a way that somehow can still be sensed - and when he goes into "full God mode" most can't sense him at all; at the same time, you have the playful Goku who can control his God ki and fight to a level comparable to his Z self. And you can have, of course, the Vanilla Super Saiyan stronger than Goku without using too much of his God ki to power up in base.

This goes accordingly to some of the series' staples: when you master a form, you can control its ki freely. It has been done with the Super Saiyan, I don't see why it couldn't be done with the God ki: we have already seen Beerus do it without much effort.

All of this again, because people find it highly unlikely (and you honestly can't blame them, in my opinion) that Piccolo became God tier after training with an extremely weak Gohan for six months and the fact that Mr. Buu is presented as in a whole 'nother dimension than Piccolo himself; on the other hand, having Piccolo stronger than Fourth Form Freeza or even with the Super Saiyan God may be a condicio sine qua non if you say that the Goku who fought Fourth Form Freeza can't beat Frost.
Saying it would amount to bad writing, or at the very least been portrayed in an extremely poor fashion is not that far off-base.

Why do people still value Buu over Piccolo? Why do Goku and Vegeta act like trolls towards Piccolo when he is basically almost as strong as they are after training with the almighty Whis... when Piccolo did it on his own? Why do they downplay Gohan - never asking him to join until he obstinately tries to take Mr. Buu's place (when he is in fact stronger than Mr. Buu because at least equal to his Chou self in your eyes... or even God tier now for some of you?) Why didn't Piccolo train in the ROSAT for half a day to easily beat Fat Buu... or why didn't he get stronger than Super Saiyan Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Game after entering the same ROSAT?

Honestly, those can potentially be heavy blows to the narrative internal coherence. I may go so far as to say GT could have been bashed for less.

I am saying Goku has 100% God ki and then powers up normally like any other character. You won't accept Piccolo has got that powerful simply because its Piccolo and to you believe unless its Goku or Vegeta than it is inprossible for such a huge power up. The power up for Piccolo was simply not on Toriyama's mind in the Buu arc and so you are also saying because he did not get a power in that arc then he can never get a power up.

[LowRyder2005]

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

Well, I'd say that if they don't tap into their God ki at all they're only marginally stronger (compared to their God forms, mind you) than what they were after the battle with Buu.

If we go by the anime continuity you have quite a lot of headscratchers anyway (see Cell vs. Pai Ku Han vs. Goku problem), but I'd have Super Saiyan Goku somewhere in-between his Super Saiyan 2 and 3. Trying to put me in TOEI's shoes, they'd probably want to go to the upper end and say he's somewhat stronger than his Super Saiyan 3.
Right now, I think I'm personally inclined to put him (as a Super Saiyan) at the level he was when fighting Majin Vegeta as a Super Saiyan 2.
This is because I think Piccolo right now is around... let's say, Dabra. Gohan is stronger than his ROF's self, but still a far cry from his post-Z Sword + Kaioshin's training self, so he probably is the same he was in the beginning of the Buu saga? I don't know, but it sounds somewhat fair to me.

That being said, I think Goku/ Vegeta will be forced to use Super Saiyan Blue (and/or God ki) in the end, but only against the dragon of the group (Hit is the best candidate right now... but I think the way he screams "danger" is almost too apparent, and I wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama suddenly shifted the role to someone else).

[LowRyder2005]

Please, try to understand what I am saying: the "Goku has two bases" is just a rough simplification of "Goku can control his God ki freely now", it has been used just to be more concise.
Let me rephrase: would you have said in Z or Dragon Ball in general that Goku had two, three, or one million bases just because he could raise or lower his power through ki manipulation? You are saying that "Goku can't lower his power below a certain point" and that would be a new one in the series, because that's what they do all the time to live among other humans.

What other people are saying in this very thread is that Goku may have access to God ki (now) as a "surplus" he can "pour" into this or that form. So there you have the "uber Base Goku" when Goku uses God ki to amp his base form - in a way that somehow can still be sensed - and when he goes into "full God mode" most can't sense him at all; at the same time, you have the playful Goku who can control his God ki and fight to a level comparable to his Z self. And you can have, of course, the Vanilla Super Saiyan stronger than Goku without using too much of his God ki to power up in base.

This goes accordingly to some of the series' staples: when you master a form, you can control its ki freely. It has been done with the Super Saiyan, I don't see why it couldn't be done with the God ki: we have already seen Beerus do it without much effort.

All of this again, because people find it highly unlikely (and you honestly can't blame them, in my opinion) that Piccolo became God tier after training with an extremely weak Gohan for six months and the fact that Mr. Buu is presented as in a whole 'nother dimension than Piccolo himself; on the other hand, having Piccolo stronger than Fourth Form Freeza or even with the Super Saiyan God may be a condicio sine qua non if you say that the Goku who fought Fourth Form Freeza can't beat Frost.
Saying it would amount to bad writing, or at the very least been portrayed in an extremely poor fashion is not that far off-base.

Why do people still value Buu over Piccolo? Why do Goku and Vegeta act like trolls towards Piccolo when he is basically almost as strong as they are after training with the almighty Whis... when Piccolo did it on his own? Why do they downplay Gohan - never asking him to join until he obstinately tries to take Mr. Buu's place (when he is in fact stronger than Mr. Buu because at least equal to his Chou self in your eyes... or even God tier now for some of you?) Why didn't Piccolo train in the ROSAT for half a day to easily beat Fat Buu... or why didn't he get stronger than Super Saiyan Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Game after entering the same ROSAT?

Honestly, those can potentially be heavy blows to the narrative internal coherence. I may go so far as to say GT could have been bashed for less.

I am saying Goku has 100% God ki and then powers up normally like any other character. You won't accept Piccolo has got that powerful simply because its Piccolo and to you believe unless its Goku or Vegeta than it is inprossible for such a huge power up. The power up for Piccolo was simply not on Toriyama's mind in the Buu arc and so you are also saying because he did not get a power in that arc then he can never get a power up.

I'm no Piccolo hater, I believe you on the other hand are not acknowledging issues inherent to a story's internal structure.
That's fine, but I would spare me these needless jabs about how I have a clear intent of downplaying Piccolo because I've got to have something against the guy.

[namekiansaiyan]

Please, try to understand what I am saying: the "Goku has two bases" is just a rough simplification of "Goku can control his God ki freely now", it has been used just to be more concise.
Let me rephrase: would you have said in Z or Dragon Ball in general that Goku had two, three, or one million bases just because he could raise or lower his power through ki manipulation? You are saying that "Goku can't lower his power below a certain point" and that would be a new one in the series, because that's what they do all the time to live among other humans.

What other people are saying in this very thread is that Goku may have access to God ki (now) as a "surplus" he can "pour" into this or that form. So there you have the "uber Base Goku" when Goku uses God ki to amp his base form - in a way that somehow can still be sensed - and when he goes into "full God mode" most can't sense him at all; at the same time, you have the playful Goku who can control his God ki and fight to a level comparable to his Z self. And you can have, of course, the Vanilla Super Saiyan stronger than Goku without using too much of his God ki to power up in base.

This goes accordingly to some of the series' staples: when you master a form, you can control its ki freely. It has been done with the Super Saiyan, I don't see why it couldn't be done with the God ki: we have already seen Beerus do it without much effort.

All of this again, because people find it highly unlikely (and you honestly can't blame them, in my opinion) that Piccolo became God tier after training with an extremely weak Gohan for six months and the fact that Mr. Buu is presented as in a whole 'nother dimension than Piccolo himself; on the other hand, having Piccolo stronger than Fourth Form Freeza or even with the Super Saiyan God may be a condicio sine qua non if you say that the Goku who fought Fourth Form Freeza can't beat Frost.
Saying it would amount to bad writing, or at the very least been portrayed in an extremely poor fashion is not that far off-base.

Why do people still value Buu over Piccolo? Why do Goku and Vegeta act like trolls towards Piccolo when he is basically almost as strong as they are after training with the almighty Whis... when Piccolo did it on his own? Why do they downplay Gohan - never asking him to join until he obstinately tries to take Mr. Buu's place (when he is in fact stronger than Mr. Buu because at least equal to his Chou self in your eyes... or even God tier now for some of you?) Why didn't Piccolo train in the ROSAT for half a day to easily beat Fat Buu... or why didn't he get stronger than Super Saiyan Goku or Super Saiyan 2 Gohan in the Cell Game after entering the same ROSAT?

Honestly, those can potentially be heavy blows to the narrative internal coherence. I may go so far as to say GT could have been bashed for less.

I am saying Goku has 100% God ki and then powers up normally like any other character. You won't accept Piccolo has got that powerful simply because its Piccolo and to you believe unless its Goku or Vegeta than it is inprossible for such a huge power up. The power up for Piccolo was simply not on Toriyama's mind in the Buu arc and so you are also saying because he did not get a power in that arc then he can never get a power up.

I'm no Piccolo hater, I believe you on the other hand are not acknowledging issues inherent to a story's internal structure.
That's fine, but I would spare me these needless jabs about how I have a clear intent of downplaying Piccolo because I've got to have something against the guy.

I come to that conclusion simply because you come out every problem from the same angle and refuse to look at other angles to reach a reasonable conclusion.

[LowRyder2005]

I come to that conclusion simply because you come out every problem from the same angle and refuse to look at other angles to reach a reasonable conclusion.

I don't see why you would reach that conclusion, since I've already addressed those angles, your observations, and tried very carefully to explain the reasons why I found them unconvincing, just as others did.

Moreover, I may say the same to you: it has been four or five pages you are just remarking how people have something against Piccolo and how your point of view is "right" while everyone else's wrong. This is not the kind of attitude that will get you far in any down-to-earth discussion. A forum is made for discussing and re-evaluating positions in light of new facts, informations or argumentations.
You should acknowledge the fact that everyone on "the other side" of this debate have most or all the time just about the likelihood of this or that event, me included: you on the other hand, are just remarking from x pages that we are flat-out wrong and blind to a supposed truth you have reached and that you have been unable to sustain with what others would have seen as compelling arguments.

Therefore, you are not discussing, this is more like "taking your opinion, treating it as a fact when it isn't, and trying to beat someone senseless with it until they give up".
This is not how a person well-equipped to discuss should react; citing a supposed lack of intellectual honesty is the best way to wreck a discussion.

So, I'll say it again: if you have something new and compelling to add to whatever I said you are more than welcome to do so; otherwise - if you only want to attack me personally because of a perceived lack of intellectual honesty, believe me, I don't think you are reinforcing your point at all.