Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

Well I'd say Piccolo was possibly around the strenght of a Cell Jr by the end of DBZ. So in this tournament perhaps somewhere between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, same with Base Gohan so practically SSJ2 tier and a bit below Good Buu.

It depends what kind of difference there is between Frost's third and fourth forms because there was an enormous difference with Frieza's.

If Frost in his Final Form was around the strenght of Good Buu then in his third form he'd be a small fraction of that.

I'd say base Goku and Vegeta would still be below Frieza like what was said at the start of Super.

[namekiansaiyan]

I come to that conclusion simply because you come out every problem from the same angle and refuse to look at other angles to reach a reasonable conclusion.

I don't see why you would reach that conclusion, since I've already addressed those angles, your observations, and tried very carefully to explain the reasons why I found them unconvincing, just as others did.

Moreover, I may say the same to you: it has been four or five pages you are just remarking how people have something against Piccolo and how your point of view is "right" while everyone else's wrong. This is not the kind of attitude that will get you far in any down-to-earth discussion. A forum is made for discussing and re-evaluating positions in light of new facts, informations or argumentations.
You should acknowledge the fact that everyone on "the other side" of this debate have most or all the time just about the likelihood of this or that event, me included: you on the other hand, are just remarking from x pages that we are flat-out wrong and blind to a supposed truth you have reached and that you have been unable to sustain with what others would have seen as compelling arguments.

Therefore, you are not discussing, this is more like "taking your opinion, treating it as a fact when it isn't, and trying to beat someone senseless with it until they give up".
This is not how a person well-equipped to discuss should react; citing a supposed lack of intellectual honesty is the best way to wreck a discussion.

So, I'll say it again: if you have something new and compelling to add to whatever I said you are more than welcome to do so; otherwise - if you only want to attack me personally because of a perceived lack of intellectual honesty, believe me, I don't think you are reinforcing your point at all.

I use Facts and evidence you don't. There is no statement saying Goku can turn God ki on or off so you have to assume its permanently on, so from that I come to the conclusion Frost is as strong as Final form Frieza and Piccolo is also around there. You though see Piccolo beating Frost and say to yourself that Goku must then be able to switch God ki off as its impossible for Piccolo to be that strong.

[LowRyder2005]

There is no statement saying Goku can turn God ki on or off so you have to assume its permanently on, so from that I come to the conclusion Frost is as strong as Final form Frieza and Piccolo is also around there. You though see Piccolo beating Frost and say to yourself that Goku must then be able to switch God ki off as its impossible for Piccolo to be that strong.

Your fundament here is that "Goku can't bring his ki below a certain level" and I already proved that this clearly can't be the case, otherwise things would start to become very messy if the Goku we see fighting Beerus is always at the same power level in his everyday life: Dragon Ball Z shows that when a person can't or forgets to control his ki it can bring catastrophic results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL1aGyPBZ04

Therefore, no, you are not using any "fact" at all. Just your arbitrary perception on how God ki is supposed to work you are claiming to be a fact. An arbitrary perception which is entirely debatable.

The matter here is: how well can Goku control his God ki, and how does that relate to his Super Saiyan form? Accepting that Goku can use his God ki independently of the form he is using (minus SSB) is one way to look at things as of now.

[ZombieVito]

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

Well I'd say Piccolo was possibly around the strenght of a Cell Jr by the end of DBZ. So in this tournament perhaps somewhere between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, same with Base Gohan so practically SSJ2 tier and a bit below Good Buu.

It depends what kind of difference there is between Frost's third and fourth forms because there was an enormous difference with Frieza's.

If Frost in his Final Form was around the strenght of Good Buu then in his third form he'd be a small fraction of that.

I'd say base Goku and Vegeta would still be below Frieza like what was said at the start of Super.

I respect your opinion but yeah I can't agree with these. Especially the Piccolo one.

[LowRyder2005]

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

Well I'd say Piccolo was possibly around the strenght of a Cell Jr by the end of DBZ. So in this tournament perhaps somewhere between Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, same with Base Gohan so practically SSJ2 tier and a bit below Good Buu.

It depends what kind of difference there is between Frost's third and fourth forms because there was an enormous difference with Frieza's.

If Frost in his Final Form was around the strenght of Good Buu then in his third form he'd be a small fraction of that.

I'd say base Goku and Vegeta would still be below Frieza like what was said at the start of Super.

I respect your opinion but yeah I can't agree with these. Especially the Piccolo one.

Regarding the first phrase, I think he actually meant Buu saga Piccolo.
If he's talking about that time frame, he's still astonished by powers such as those of SS2 Goku and Vegeta (who are, supposedly, slightly stronger than Gohan in the Cell Game)... so yeah, Cell Jr. tier (or by being generous Full Power Super Saiyan; even though he still implies non-fused Goten and Trunks have more chances to beat Fat Buu than himself) would be realistical. With the whole "ten years later" in the End of Z we have no idea about how much stronger did he get, or rather, how he compares to his Buu saga self... could be stronger, could be weaker, could be the same.

I do agree that the anime went out of his way to give better feats to the weaker Base Gohan compared to Piccolo's own, so the Saiyans < Freeza implication made by Beerus lost quite a lot of credibility to me.

[ZombieVito]

I do agree that the anime went out of his way to give better feats to the weaker Base Gohan compared to Piccolo's own, so the Saiyans < Freeza implication made by Beerus lost quite a lot of credibility to me.

Are you talking about RoF? Because Gohan is not a normal Saiyan.

[LowRyder2005]

I do agree that the anime went out of his way to give better feats to the weaker Base Gohan compared to Piccolo's own, so the Saiyans < Freeza implication made by Beerus lost quite a lot of credibility to me.

Are you talking about RoF? Because Gohan is not a normal Saiyan.

Well, I had actually mixed up ROF and Super for a second. If I remember correctly, Piccolo and Shisami do not even square off in Super, while they do in ROF.
In Super there may be still the fact that Shisami proclaims himself to be "the strongest soldier in the army", so apparently it would mean he sees himself at least as a rival to Tagoma (this is before Tagoma's sudden reveal). So if they're not rival in powers, either he is boasting or he doesn't knew about Tagoma's progresses.
Anyway, it barely adds anything conclusive to the whole Base vs. Freeza debate. Like we have established, the reason Shisami was that strong was the training with Freeza, and he shouldn't have trained with Freeza in Super.

[Hugo Boss]

My concern is if the game makes justice to that description. For example, if [F] Goku has a level inferior to Super Saiyan God's, the description doesn't make sense within game. Isn't that verifiable in any way?

Turns out that sometimes he is stronger, and some times he isn't. Like I said before, the in-game battle powers are useless.

Thank you for the effort, I apreciated. Interesting that they have SSGSS and SSG somewhat consistent with each other.

Also after Goku transforms into a SSGSS, North Kaio remarked in amazement that “He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus-sama planet?”

That automatically disproves the statement of that video game that Goku’s base is “beyond God” which you also assumed it meant “Super Saiyan God”. If Goku in his base was stronger than BoGs SSG then why was Kaio surprised that Goku reached that level of tier only when he turned SSGSS? Why didn't he say anything about base Goku reaching that tier (something that is more impressive actually)?

Good point. If "Beyond God" Goku were stronger than Super Saiyan God, Kaio's remark wouldn't transmit any hype. The same they did to Vegeta, when adressing the fact he acquired godly power by his own when using SSGSS.

So to all the people who are saying Goku and Vegeta have two bases. How strong do you have them without god ki compared to characters from Z?

For now, I have Base Goku close to Majin Boo.

Like we have established, the reason Shisami was that strong was the training with Freeza, and he shouldn't have trained with Freeza in Super.

When did Shisami train with Freeza?

[LowRyder2005]

When did Shisami train with Freeza?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my wording: I meant that in the Revival of F movie he had trained with Freeza (and so, he was incredibly strong); in Super, Tagoma is the one who trains with Freeza, so Shisami shouldn't be as strong as he was because the main cause of his strenght in the Revival of F movie has disappeared - in theory, of course.

Basically, I was more or less repeating what Speedster had already, and rightly, pointed out.

[Hugo Boss]

When did Shisami train with Freeza?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my wording: I meant that in the Revival of F movie he had trained with Freeza (and so, he was incredibly strong); in Super, Tagoma is the one who trains with Freeza, so Shisami shouldn't be as strong as he was because the main cause of his strenght in the Revival of F movie has disappeared - in theory, of course.

No problem, but when exactly in the movie Shisami was implied to have trained with Freeza? I should have redone my original question.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Dragonball heroes is a non-canon resource and, no, it doesn't count at all as a guidebook. Additionally, here Dragonball Super shamelessly retcons pre-established things of its own source material ... do you thing they would even bother to restrict themselves by a statement that is not in the source material?

There is no canon. If you want to ignore the information from DBHeroes, you are free to do so.

The anime itself (which is the highest level of canon source material when it comes to Dragonball Super) in episode 24 (towards the end) flat out establishes that the SSGSS transformation is a “Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”. Also after Goku transforms into a SSGSS, North Kaio remarked in amazement that “He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus-sama planet?”

That automatically disproves the statement of that video game that Goku’s base is “beyond God” which you also assumed it meant “Super Saiyan God”. If Goku in his base was stronger than BoGs SSG then why was Kaio surprised that Goku reached that level of tier only when he turned SSGSS? Why didn't he say anything about base Goku reaching that tier (something that is more impressive actually)?

Kaio was surprised because Goku became stronger than he was as a SSG, and because he had godly ki once again. Regardless of what you think of base Goku, regular SS Goku was already as strong as SSG, but didn't have godly ki. And this doesn't come from any video-game, it comes from the Super anime.

(1) Shisami’s role in the movie was taken by Tagoma in the anime. In the anime Tagoma was the one who trained with Freeza. In the movie Tagoma was dead therefore it must had been Shisami the one who served as Freeza’s sparring partner. So there was a reason why Shisami got a power up in the movie that is no longer applicable in the anime.

It was never said that Shisami served as Freeza's sparring partner in the movie, and I never believed in that theory.

(3) When Tagoma powers up and Sorbet measured his power level he was surprised that he surpassed the Ginyu force. Being surprised that a member of his army surpassed that level, means that the rest of his army (which included Shisami) were below that level. Otherwise you have to assume that he severely underestimated Tagoma’s potential in comparison to Shisami’s.

That's exactly what I believe. Sorbet knew that Tagoma got stronger, but he had no idea how much stronger, and assumed that he was still weaker than Shisami. Meanwhile, Shisami did his training as well during these 4 months (in both movie & Super), and became even stronger than before, but Tagoma surpassed him.

Thank you for the effort, I apreciated. Interesting that they have SSGSS and SSG somewhat consistent with each other.

You can have Saibaimen cards that are stronger than Freeza cards, and Super Saiyans who are stronger than their respective Super Saiyan 4 states. There really isn't any consistency.

[Bullza]

I respect your opinion but yeah I can't agree with these. Especially the Piccolo one.

Well we don't know how strong Piccolo was by the end of DBZ (Buu saga). I definitley don't think he'd be a match for Perfect Cell, I don't think he'd be as strong as MSSJ Goku either. At the Cell Games he may have been around Semi Perfect Cell's level so to me being around the level of Cell Jr or basically ASSJ Vegeta or Trunks seems fair.

As for the other thing.

Final Form Frieza in his 100% buff form had a power level of 120 million.

Final Form Frieza in his 50% non buff form had a power level of 60 million.

Third Form Frieza had a power level of say about 2 million so there's between a 30x to a 60x gap between forms.

Base Goku was weaker than Third Form Frost so could well be 30x to 40x weaker than Final Form Frost. If Final Form Frost was just Z tier and somewhere in the SSJ2 to SSJ3 or so range than I don't think it'd be unreasonable for base Goku to be on the high end of Frieza's power.

[LowRyder2005]

When did Shisami train with Freeza?

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with my wording: I meant that in the Revival of F movie he had trained with Freeza (and so, he was incredibly strong); in Super, Tagoma is the one who trains with Freeza, so Shisami shouldn't be as strong as he was because the main cause of his strenght in the Revival of F movie has disappeared - in theory, of course.

No problem, but when exactly in the movie Shisami was implied to have trained with Freeza? I should have redone my original question.

Oh, yeah, sure. Now that I think about it, it was me who had misunderstood where you were aiming with that remark: your question made perfect sense. It was never said in the movie, and it was something most people automatically assumed to justify Shisami being able to trade blows with Super Namekian Piccolo.
Well, I guess the whole issue opens up to quite a lot of different interpretations again. Was it because Piccolo was so tired he couldn't take a Ginyu-level foe? Bad writing? Piccolo and Gohan becoming terribly weak because of lack of training?

Mind you, I still give particular credit to the "Shisami trained with Freeza just like Tagoma in Super" because is the only thing that makes sense to me, but yeah, I suppose even that can't really be proven.

[Hugo Boss]

Was it because Piccolo was so tired he couldn't take a Ginyu-level foe? Bad writing? Piccolo and Gohan becoming terribly weak because of lack of training?

I think I could agree with the first and second reasons. Even in Dragon Ball Super, it is implied a weaker fighter can tire a stronger one, so I more or less accept this could be the case in the movie, granted that Piccolo and even Gohan ate a senzu bean. Bad writing, because I think the movie could have given one little sentence implying Shisami was Freeza's training partner or Piccolo commenting on stamina loss. That because there should be a huge difference between Zarbon and a Super Namekian. I wouldn't assume Piccolo got weaker without anyone pointing a reason or when we have lots of implications about Gohan non-training and Piccolo's strict training regimen.

[Bullza]

I don't see any problem with Shisami having trained with Frieza in the movie version.

Shisami and Tagoma's roles were just partly swapped around. I even think Shisami in the movie is just the same strenght as Tagoma in Super.

The series has given a lot of extra detail and attention to the things that are glossed over in the movies and I see this as being one of them.

[Speedster]

Dragonball heroes is a non-canon resource and, no, it doesn't count at all as a guidebook. Additionally, here Dragonball Super shamelessly retcons pre-established things of its own source material ... do you thing they would even bother to restrict themselves by a statement that is not in the source material?

There is no canon. If you want to ignore the information from DBHeroes, you are free to do so.

There is source material and no source material. The first comes from those who produce the show, the latter is not. If you want to take into account video game statements (or any other third party statements of no authority) it is your prerogative but please do it somewhere more relevant … probably the video games section. This is a thread about power-scaling based on what is shown or stated in the anime of Dragonball Super and/or by people directly involved in its production.

After Goku transforms into a SSGSS, North Kaio remarked in amazement that “He can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of other Saiyans? What kind of training did he do on Beerus-sama planet?” If Goku in his base was stronger than BoGs SSG then why was Kaio surprised that Goku reached that level of tier only when he turned SSGSS? Why didn't he say anything about base Goku reaching that tier (something that is more impressive actually)?

Kaio was surprised because Goku became stronger than he was as a SSG, and because he had godly ki once again. Regardless of what you think of base Goku, regular SS Goku was already as strong as SSG, but didn't have godly ki. And this doesn't come from any video-game, it comes from the Super anime.

-Except this is not what Kaio said or implied. Kaio never said that Goku became stronger than SSG (not by a large margin at least) when Goku turned into SSGSS. His amazement was that Goku reached the SSG tier by himself without the ritual.
-Also following your logic you have to wonder why would it be of any importance whether Goku’s ki is Godly or regular if either way Goku’s strength level were in the same tier? It is more than clear that Goku only accessed that God power level tier by turning into Super Saiyan (yellow, then blue), and that his base was very far from it. We still haven't seen the blue form in the U6 arc, by the way, despite the all the "going all out" statements even in episode titles (see Vegeta in ep. 35 NEP).

(1) Shisami’s role in the movie was taken by Tagoma in the anime. In the anime Tagoma was the one who trained with Freeza. In the movie Tagoma was dead therefore it must had been Shisami the one who served as Freeza’s sparring partner. So there was a reason why Shisami got a power up in the movie that is no longer applicable in the anime.

It was never said that Shisami served as Freeza's sparring partner in the movie, and I never believed in that theory.

So you rather assume that Freeza had no sparring partner in the movie and that Shisami achieved such a crazy power up all on his own. You have to wonder then why they bothered to revive Freeza if a member of his army could become stronger than 100% final form Namek arc Freeza after training alone for 4 months? Because it is clear that Sorbet didn't expect that Freeza could get any stronger than he used to be on Namek.

(3) When Tagoma powers up and Sorbet measured his power level he was surprised that he surpassed the Ginyu force. Being surprised that a member of his army surpassed that level, means that the rest of his army (which included Shisami) were below that level. Otherwise you have to assume that he severely underestimated Tagoma’s potential in comparison to Shisami’s.

That's exactly what I believe. Sorbet knew that Tagoma got stronger, but he had no idea how much stronger, and assumed that he was still weaker than Shisami. Meanwhile, Shisami did his training as well during these 4 months (in both movie & Super), and became even stronger than before, but Tagoma surpassed him.

Except that it is an incredibly weak argument that makes no sense. As already shown Shisami’s power level was around Zarbon’s level 4 months earlier (episode 20). Now you believe that Shisami increased his power level by 10,000x during that period … yet Sorbet, who addressed Tagoma and Shisami almost like equals, was surprised because Tagoma’s increase surpassed a mere x2? How is that logical? Why would Sorbet consider Tagoma 5000x less capable than Shisami while up to that point he was treating them as equals? I can understand/accept Sorbet expecting Tagoma to be 80% or even only 10% as good as Shisami ... but less than 0.02%?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is source material and no source material. The first comes from those who produce the show, the latter is not. If you want to take into account video game statements (or any other third party statements of no authority) it is your prerogative but please do it somewhere more relevant … probably the video games section. This is a thread about power-scaling based on what is shown or stated in the anime of Dragonball Super and/or by people directly involved in its production.

No, I won't take it in the video games section. We are talking about Super here, and that statement was made about a character from Super. I don't think that guys that make Dragon Ball Heroes pulled that information from their ass, that specific card of Goku existed as a promotion for the movie at the time, so they must have taken the information directly from Toei. The promotional manga also portrayed base Goku as been on SSG level, and BoG had already stated that base Goku was slightly weaker than SSG (meaning that base Goku from FnF surpassed SSG through his training with Whis).

-Except this is not what Kaio said or implied. Kaio never said that Goku became stronger than SSG, not by a large margin at least, when Goku turned into SSGSS. His amazement was that Goku reached the SSG tier by himself without the ritual.

Kaio also never said anything about battle powers, he was amazed that Goku could become a Super Saiyan God without help from others and didn't say anything about his power, he was simply amazed by the new form. And SSGSS is described as a form beyond Super Saiyan God in Super, so it's more powerful.

-Also following your logic you have to wonder why would it be of any importance whether Goku’s ki is Godly or regular if either way Goku’s strength level were in the same tier? It is more than clear that Goku only accessed that God power level tier by turning into Super Saiyan (yellow, then blue), and that his base was very far from it. We still haven't seen the blue form in the U6 arc by the way despite the all the "going all out" statements even in episode titles (see Vegeta in ep. 35 NEP).

You are saying that base Goku can't be at SSG level because Kaio was surprised that Goku can reach that level on his own, even though he could already reach that level in his own with regular SS. Your argument makes no sense.

So you rather assume that Freeza had no sparring partner in the movie and that Shisami achieved such a crazy power up all on his own. You have to wonder then why they bothered to revive Freeza if a member of his army could become stronger than 100% final form Namek arc Freeza after training alone for 4 months? Because it is clear than Sorbet didn't expect that Freeza could get any stronger than he used to be on Namek.

If Sorbet didn't expect Freeza to get that much stronger, why would he expect Shisami to get stronger than Freeza?

Except that it is an incredibly weak assumption that makes no sense.

In your opinion. I'm not forcing you to agree with my head-canon. I believe that Tagoma & Shisami are both fighting prodigies that didn't train much prior Freeza's revival.

[ZombieVito]

You know this base with/without god essence is starting to make sense. That's one way to explain how Oob was able to keep up with base Goku without bloating him up to hell.

[Speedster]

There is source material and no source material. The first comes from those who produce the show, the latter is not. If you want to take into account video game statements (or any other third party statements of no authority) it is your prerogative but please do it somewhere more relevant … probably the video games section. This is a thread about power-scaling based on what is shown or stated in the anime of Dragonball Super and/or by people directly involved in its production.

I don't think that guys that make Dragon Ball Heroes pulled that information from their ass, that specific card of Goku existed as a promotion for the movie at the time, so they must have taken the information directly from Toei. The promotional manga also portrayed base Goku as been on SSG level, and BoG had already stated that base Goku was slightly weaker than SSG (meaning that base Goku from FnF surpassed SSG through his training with Whis).

It is pretty obvious these statements about Goku's base being as strong as SSG were based on the events of the movie version of BoGs and Toriyama BoG's movie interview in 2013. But these were changed both in FnF movie and Super.

Except this is not what Kaio said or implied. Kaio never said that Goku became stronger than SSG, not by a large margin at least, when Goku turned into SSGSS. His amazement was that Goku reached the SSG tier by himself without the ritual.

Kaio also never said anything about battle powers, he was amazed that Goku could become a Super Saiyan God without help from others and didn't say anything about his power, he was simply amazed by the new form. And SSGSS is described as a form beyond Super Saiyan God in Super, so it's more powerful.

That is incorrect. I suggest you re-watching the episodes with better subs. Never once was SSGSS referred to as "a form beyond SSG". The only time SSGSS was said to be beyond another form was about the legendary Super Saiyan form.

Also following your logic you have to wonder why would it be of any importance whether Goku’s ki is Godly or regular if either way Goku’s strength level were in the same tier? It is more than clear that Goku only accessed that God power level tier by turning into Super Saiyan (yellow, then blue), and that his base was very far from it. We still haven't seen the blue form in the U6 arc by the way despite the all the "going all out" statements even in episode titles (see Vegeta in ep. 35 NEP).

You are saying that base Goku can't be at SSG level because Kaio was surprised that Goku can reach that level on his own, even though he could already reach that level in his own with regular SS. Your argument makes no sense.

Kaio surprisedly remarked that Goku reached God tier on his own only after Goku turned SSGSS. This means he was not at that tier while in his base. As simple as that. Otherwise Kaio would have made that remark when Goku fought Freeza in his base. What is so hard to understand?

Base Goku being in God level was indeed the original intention of the BoGs *movie* but once they got to produce new material they clearly made it so that Goku can get to that God tier only by turning Super Saiyan. The SSJ transformation always gave access to a large boost and now this boost also includes the SSG power.

So you rather assume that Freeza had no sparring partner in the movie and that Shisami achieved such a crazy power up all on his own. You have to wonder then why they bothered to revive Freeza if a member of his army could become stronger than 100% final form Namek arc Freeza after training alone for 4 months? Because it is clear than Sorbet didn't expect that Freeza could get any stronger than he used to be on Namek.

If Sorbet didn't expect Freeza to get that much stronger, why would he expect Shisami to get stronger than Freeza?

Well I never claimed that Shisami managed to surpass Freeza on his own. Did I now? It is you that claimed this. My point is that if Shisami were able to do so he would have done it already during all his previous training. What was so special about this 4 months' training had Shisami not trained with Freeza?

I believe that Tagoma & Shisami are both fighting prodigies that didn't train much prior Freeza's revival.

Except that in both the movie and the anime they were stated that they have NOW reached the level of rivalling Zarbon and Dodoria. It means they were weaker in the past and trained to reach that level. And indeed the flashback of Tagoma being a lower ranked soldier looking up to Dodoria confirms this ... military positions were allocated based on strength in Freeza's original army.

[RandomGuy96]

You know this base with/without god essence is starting to make sense. That's one way to explain how Oob was able to keep up with base Goku without bloating him up to hell.

That wouldn't really make any sense. That'd have to be Goku's base with God ki, or else Goku got like 400 times stronger in base (discounting God ki) between Buu and Uub. I again think that base Goku is just not all that strong. Base Godku being SS3-tier wouldn't really contradict anything, would it?