Super Animation Catalogue 2.0

[Black_Liger]

aside from the fact they share a name with a Japanese porn star. Maybe don't google that at work!

I am intrigued as to how you know that Ajay ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Ajay]

I am intrigued as to how you know that Ajay ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Haha! It's because I did exactly what I warned against: I googled it. Needless to say, I was kinda surprised when every single result was along the lines of "XXX BABES! PORN ENCYCLOPEDIA! JAPANEASE BEAUTIES!"

It's too early for Karasawa Yuichi to supervise the next episode. She worked on #31, so it will be a few more before her episode airs.

Yeah, it's definitely too soon. He's male, by the way!

As I said in another thread, my money's on Ishikawa. We haven't seen him since episode 29, and his style is basically Yamamuro with a few differences. He seems to go for more angular turns on the eyebrows, rather than using a slight curve like Yamamuro does.

Spoiler:

Next week on the left, Yamamuro in the middle, and Ishikawa on the right.

I just feel like Yamamuro would never let an episode go out where Vegeta's neck is as thin as it looks here:

Spoiler:

I could be totally wrong. It may well be someone new, but I'm not convinced its Yamamuro. Seems like a weird place to use him, too.

EDIT: Yeah, I was right. It's Ishikawa.

[LonelyShadow]

This thread is easily one of my favorites in this forum. Thank you Ajay, for creating it and continue working on it.

I like Ishikawa's faces in general, the only shot I dislike is the one where Goku is smiling right before training on episode 2, he looks weirdly old. I like what Kitano did with that sort of expression on episode 1 a little bit more.

Personally, I find the way Naoki Tate draws the eyes and the mouths really appealing, especially in Vegeta's case. His action scenes are really pleasant to watch.

Shūichi Iseki has been one of my favorite supervisors so far; just look at the 4th screenshot provided! That is the most badass 'base Goku' I've seen in a while, the Super Saiyan transformation Goku did in episode 16 is also one of the best ones yet. His expressions for the characters remind me of Keiseke Masanuga.

[Sodhi]

I also really liked episode 16 a lot better than any other episode of Super so far. It was awesome frame by frame. It also felt like only episode in which the supervisor had the time to do what they wanted.

[saiyanvegetable]

I don't know where this ridiculous misconception comes from that Z had worse animation than Super. It really doesn't.

Z's biggest issue, and the thing that's been highlighted for years, has been the overbearing animation supervisors who weren't very good. Their style was ugly, and so stills of their frames have been passed around the internet for years. Kanzenshuu's very own animation style guide hosts many of them.

You know the names: Yukio Ebisawa and Masayuki Uchiyama.

But they seldom animated themselves, and when they did, it was poor, sure, but more often than not it was much better than many scenes in Super. I think some people forget that it's the talent that works under these supervisors that matter, rather than just the supervisors themselves. It's their work that gets overlooked, because really, ugly corrections aside, the animation in these episodes was not outright horrible.

Under Uchiyama, we had the likes of Naotoshi Shida and Tai’ichirō Ohara, who are both fantastic animators. Under Ebisawa, there was Toshiyuki Kan’no, who singlehandedly saved so many scenes under Ebisawa's lead. You wouldn't believe Vegeta's sacrifice was an Ebisawa-lead episode!

Super's issue is that nobody with anything resembling talent is working under these supervisors, and when they do, they seldom have the time to actually do anything of worth. There are a few cases where weaker members of Ebisawa and Uchiyama's team have been brought back for Super.

Honestly, here's a near-8 minute long video comprised of clips from what many people consider Z and GT's worst episodes. Super has dipped below this quality many a time when it's come to action. It's very depressing.

Z and GT had the decency to at least ensure one episode of a fight looked great, even if the surroundings ones were spotty. Super zooms along, rushing through fights, and leaving them looking like utter garbage. No wonder last night's episode was so spotty! Two full fights in one episode?! There was no way that was ever going to go well.

Cutaways to other characters in Z were there to prevent the anime from overtaking the manga, but they were also there to save time and frames for the fights. That's not happening here. They're biting off more than they can chew, they're not compensating for it, and the show is suffering as a result.

With the likelihood that someone is changing things last second at Toei, this is only making things much, much worse. Throwing away cuts, changing keys, really?! You can't afford to do that on a weekly show, especially one with such a cut-throat schedule.

I really feel like a lot of people focus too much on model quality, rather than the motion on screen. The number of digitally transformed stills last night were embarrassing. Goku flipping and flopping during his flurry of punches was laughable. It was only a small portion of that Frost fight I consider acceptable.

This is absolutely spot on. I hate the "but DeebeeZ had bad animation like Super!" argument because it's a total bullshit argument.

[Hit!!]

This is absolutely spot on. I hate the "but DeebeeZ had bad animation like Super!" argument because it's a total bullshit argument.

I'm the one who says that Z has some pretty bad episodes and if you don't want to accept that then thats your problem. The reason I said this was because people were overreacting waaaaay too much to episode 34. I think i'm not alone when I say that I'm sick of people bitching about the animation, especially when its NOT THAT ATROCIOUS. I understand when an episode is episode 5 or episode 24, 25 tier, in terms of animation. There was no excuse whatsoever during those episodes, but come on, episode 34 was NOT THAT FUCKING BAD!! It wasn't good, but it wasn't that bad.

And saying that super is looking "worse and worse" at time goes by is also bullshit.

Also, that 8 minute video that Ajay posted is not totally accurate, some of those clips aren't nearly the worst looking ones in DBZ. There are clips in the Frieza arc and the Cell arc that look worse than all of those combined.

The only thing that I do agree with is that in Dragon Ball Z, no matter how badly drawn an episode was, the movement was almost always consistent.


And before I finish, I must repeat again; I NEVER SAID THAT DBZ IN GENERAL LOOKED WORSE THAN SUPER, I NEVER SAID THAT. People should stop using that against me, because I never ever said that.

[Ajay]

Also, that 8 minute video that Ajay posted is not totally accurate, some of those clips aren't nearly the worst looking ones in DBZ. There are clips in the Frieza arc and the Cell arc that look worse than all of those combined.

Can you give me an episode number and a rough time stamp. I'm interested.

[saiyanvegetable]

This is absolutely spot on. I hate the "but DeebeeZ had bad animation like Super!" argument because it's a total bullshit argument.

I'm the one who says that Z has some pretty bad episodes and if you don't want to accept that then thats your problem. The reason I said this was because people were overreacting waaaaay too much to episode 34. I think i'm not alone when I say that I'm sick of people bitching about the animation, especially when its NOT THAT ATROCIOUS. I understand when an episode is episode 5 or episode 24, 25 tier, in terms of animation. There was no excuse whatsoever during those episodes, but come on, episode 34 was NOT THAT FUCKING BAD!! It wasn't good, but it wasn't that bad.



And before I finish, I must repeat again; I NEVER SAID THAT DBZ IN GENERAL LOOKED WORSE THAN SUPER, I NEVER SAID THAT. People should stop using that against me, because I never ever said that.

You're delusional. Super's animation is pretty bottom tier when put side by side to comparable shows, it's absolutely atrocious. Episode 34 was one of the sorriest excuses for a fight I've ever seen. I dare you to compare it to other shows. I know standards as a whole have gone down in the anime industry, but this is as rock bottom as you get - especially for a high profile show like Dragonball.

[Cursemark505]

The reason I said this was because people were overreacting waaaaay too much to episode 34. I think i'm not alone when I say that I'm sick of people bitching about the animation, especially when its NOT THAT ATROCIOUS.

It's not an overreaction. Dragon ball Super is the most poorly animated show from this generation.

but come on, episode 34 was NOT THAT FUCKING BAD!! It wasn't good, but it wasn't that bad.

As saiyanvegetable pointed out, even in comparison to the worst of other series, episode 34 looks like garbage. I haven't seen any show hit rock bottom as hard as Super has.

[Ajay]

Episode 35:

Spoiler:

Animation Supervisors:
Ishikawa Osamu & Takamura Kaoru

Key Animators:
Nashizawa Takashi, Kato Yoshitaka, Ishikawa Osamu, Inaba Jin, Matsumoto Katsuji, Tezuka Emi, Sakai Hiroyuki, Kosakai Tomoya, Morinaka Masaharu, Sugawara Rieko, Ishii Tamaki, Mura Shuntaro, and Studio Myu.

[Ajay]

Updated with the image!

Ishikawa's half was mostly on-model. Not that that really maters much because Super doesn't actually move. Another week of standing around with some awkward motion sprinkled in the midst of things. I hate to complain every week, it's very tiring, but I do find it so unbelievably frustrating to watch. Cheap animation methods are totally fine when used in moderation or in conjunction with genuine motion. Super doesn't have any genuine motion, so we're left with stills bouncing around next to speed lines, and in this episode's case, they literally flipped stills back and forth to simulate moving from side to side. The other episode, they were even digitally squashing Botamo to make it appear as though he were bouncing! It's maddening. I just know that many people will give the animation in this episode a pass entirely because it was on-model, but they really shouldn't.

It actually kinda looked like things were moving next week though, so that's a small glimmer of hope, I guess. I so wish Super wasn't starved of talented animators. I'm enjoying the story for the most part, but I spend most weeks wishing for the manga so that I'm not horribly distracted by what's on my screen. Sometimes I wish I didn't care so much!

[Sodhi]

I am not a Big Shimanuki fan but I like this cut from the NEP where the arean breaks

[ArchedThunder]

I thought there was a fair amount of okay motion in the episode, certainly more than I think a few people give it credit for.

[Ajay]

I am not a Big Shimanuki fan but I like this cut from the NEP where the arean breaks

Despite what the magazines said, next week is almost certainly Shimanuki and someone else (probably Karasawa) working together. That or Shimanuki's being heavily corrected by the Chief Supervisor. His traits were barely present throughout the preview.

I thought there was a fair amount of okay motion in the episode, certainly more than I think a few people give it credit for.

Got an example? I've gone through it multiple times now and I'm seeing nothing of any worth. The only thing that stands out to me is that they bothered to animate the Super Saiyan hair.

[ArchedThunder]

I thought there was a fair amount of okay motion in the episode, certainly more than I think a few people give it credit for.

Got an example? I've gone through it multiple times now and I'm seeing nothing of any worth. The only thing that stands out to me is that they bothered to animate the Super Saiyan hair.

Nothing amazing that stands out, but what was there was fine I think and there was a fair amount of motion in the episode.

[Bansho64]

One disappointment after another it seems.......

[Ajay]

What motion, though? My point is that what's there isn't really animation. It's just cheap trickery. It's taking one frame and manipulating it give the sense of motion. Multiple drawings aren't being used. The few examples I can think of are Vegeta's awkward kick and his slide under Magetta. For a martial arts tournament, it's pitiful.

[pacz360]

What motion, though? My point is that what's there isn't really animation. It's just cheap trickery. It's taking one frame and manipulating it give the sense of motion. Multiple drawings aren't being used. The few examples I can think of are Vegeta's awkward kick and his slide under Magetta. For a martial arts tournament, it's pitiful.

Exactly the fight choreography is still piss poor even when vegeta on shot frost it felt absolutely lazy and no effort put into it care to explain why does it look most characters in super look like their barely moving at times?

[Sodhi]

There are lot of repeated animation and awkward animation in 2nd part of the episode.Especially the motions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3Y9gLPmBuc

[Ajay]

Care to explain why does it look most characters in super look like their barely moving at times?

For whatever reason, Super doesn't have many talented animators under its belt, and when they do pop up, they have no time to do anything worthwhile.. This lack of talent and time constraints means that animators are likely coming up with the simplest layouts they can feasibly get done in time. For someone like Naoki Tate, he has enough talent to scribble out something like this, while also finding time to supervise the rest of the episode (with assistance, of course). It's off-model and not the greatest thing ever, but it actually contains movement. It's genuinely decent animators that Super needs to succeed.

When you're not skilled enough to create something worthwhile in a short time (or at all), you've got to come up with a way to counteract that. That means using all the tricks of the trade to fake motion without having to actually draw too many frames. Simple repeated frames, single shots that can be digitally manipulated -- you name it, they're probably doing it. This doesn't always have to matter as supervisors will often provide their own key animation to even things out, but due to the lack of time, supervisors can rarely pull themselves away from doing layout checks and corrections to even provide any work of their own. In this episode, Ishikawa's been credited as a key animator. I get the feeling that's entirely due to the sheer number of clear redraws present in the episode, but if not, his work was probably the Goku and Beerus character acting.

Ultimately, Super's lack of motion boils down to zero time and zero talent. A show like One Piece has a large talent pool and a decentish schedule; its downtime fights aren't great, but they're much more dynamic that what we've been getting in Super lately. That's where the big difference lies. It also has the ability to sacrifice lesser episodes to allow all the talented animators to pool together to produce the noteworthy key episodes. For whatever reason, Super doesn't really seem to do that. It's a strange production and I don't think I'll ever make full sense of it. I have a shit load of theories, but they're always changing.