Criticism of Dragonball

Undercooked Sausage · Post by **Undercooked Sausage** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 1:54 pm

So in anticipation for the new DBZ Season sets that FUNi is putting out. I've been picking up the Dragonball "saga sets" cheap off Amazon (Some of the volumes go for less than ten dollars, cha-ching!) to re-watch the series as I've never seen the original series in it's subtitled format. I'm up somewhere in the middle of the Red Ribbon Arc and I have to say, for me personally it's one of the weaker story arcs for me. Is it just me or is it when DB does a story arc where the protagonists grossly overpower the antagonists (IE: A lot of the Red Ribbon Arc, not counting Mercenary Tao, Goku's fights in Dragonball GT) that the show sort of loses it's appeal? My favorite story arcs in the Dragonball saga has always been the Saiyan/Namek Arcs where the characters were true underdogs to the main villians. As strange as it may sound, I think the anime/manga was at it's best when Goku was not a major player in the story, and that the story was it's most gripping and suspenseful when second-tier characters like Krillin, Piccolo or Chibi Gohan having to step up to the plate.

On the other hand, I've always felt that Goku was my favorite character in the show. Immediately likeable, and with a penchant for shenanigans and constant binge eating, what's not to like? The only problem is that Goku was a bit too one-dimensional to be an interesting LEAD character, and far too strong(and even when his opponents outclassed him, he would just train or find a new transformation to quickly become the strongest again) to keep the Majin Buu arc(where he is arguably king shit of fuck mountain) or the Red Ribbon Arcs interesting.

The other problem of course, is that the series became too formulaic. It was interesting to see Goku(or in the case of the Cell Arc, Gohan) triumph over a seemingly unstoppable foe through some miraculous power-up, but after several hundred episodes, the idea became predictable and cliche.

Mr. Toriyama, I felt, tried to recapture not only the charming wit of the original series with the Majin Buu arc, but also wanted to try and bring a interesting sort of suspense. I felt that it was a good effort, but it ultimately fell flat on it's face due to Buu's lack of personality, and the laziness of the storytelling. (Every effort against him was completely in vain up until the last five minutes of the arc, gee, way to take the "regenerative" Cell thing a bit too far.)

So basically, in conclusion. While we are all fans of the show, what do you feel are it's weaknesses? Your least favorite story arcs? How do you think the story should have been told? Do you feel there was a lack of character or plot development and that the series essentially reached autopilot mode after X amount of Volumes? Share your gripes about Son Goku and Co. here.

Personally, I felt the show went on a little too long for it's own good, and fell into a lot of formulaic storytelling, I could justify it's length had Toriyama broken completely away from the manner of storytelling and/or focus of Goku, but as it were, he was unable to without fan outcry. Still, it would've been nice to see more maturation in the series, the inclusion of forgotten fan favorites in later sagas (Ten, Yamcha, Krillin etc) and not using Transformations/zenkais so often as a writing crutch.

At the very least, Mr. Toriyama was smart to remove Power levels after Freeza saga, as cool they were.

GI_Judd2287 · Post by **GI_Judd2287** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:24 pm

It's strange you say that, because I feel that the Sayain and Freeza arcs are the worst parts of the series. I thought all the fights were too dragged out and there weren't many plot developments. Did all five members of the Ginyu Force contribute something to the story? Not really. It all just feels like filler (even though it isn't).

The Cell Saga changed that, but not too much. It got to the point where new things would happen during the fights. Something important happened in every chapter/episode. It was still pretty dragged out however.

Out of everything DBZ covers, the Buu saga was the best. It wasn't a ridiculous slug fest like the past few sagas and relied on plot more than anything else.

But I think the best parts of the entire series were the Budokai's. You met some pretty memorable characters and you saw a lot of great fights (the best in the series, I think). Not to mention almost every major character at that point had a chance to shine. When Goku fights Freeza, it's painfully obvious as soon as he becomes a Super Saiyan that he'll win. But that's not the case with Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan, or Piccolo.

Undercooked Sausage · Post by **Undercooked Sausage** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:26 pm

GI_Judd2287 wrote:
But I think the best parts of the entire series were the Budokai's. You met some pretty memorable characters and you saw a lot of great fights (the best in the series, I think). Not to mention almost every major character at that point had a chance to shine. When Goku fights Freeza, it's painfully obvious as soon as he becomes a Super Saiyan that he'll win. But that's not the case with Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan, or Piccolo.

Incredibly OTM. I forgot to mention that the Budokai's are without a doubt the finest points in the series. Everything was so well planned out and fights were always up in the air. There was no good guy/bad guy angle. The world wasn't going to end if Goku lost, so what's going to happen?

QuantumDestiny · Post by **QuantumDestiny** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:27 pm

My only criticism of DragonBall is that some of the episodes did drag out too much, but there were limits to the animation back then. If DBZ was animated presently, it would've mindblowing! Other than that, I wouldn't change anything.

The Prince · Post by **The Prince** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:34 pm

Dragonball up to the frieza saga was the best. It had so much suspense up to the fight with freeza. After the freeza fight everything seemed redundant(kinda cool) with all the transformations and powerups(constantly) because nobody would stay as "the strong one" for hardly anytime at all. Before the cell to majin arcs a lot of the fights required teamwork unlike the later episodes..

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:38 pm

I have a couple of complaints that deal with the series as a whole (not solely based on FUNimation believe it or not). First off, we see plenty of interesting characters that are cast aside. Another gripe I have with the series is the letter ‘Z’; I wish it was DragonBall through and through. And for the sake of my first example, I wish saiyans weren’t so powerful because you end up with little kids obviously surpassing legendary warriors..
-Rick

The Prince · Post by **The Prince** » Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:40 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:I have a couple of complaints that deal with the series as a whole (not solely based on FUNimation believe it or not). First off, we see plenty of interesting characters that are cast aside. Another gripe I have with the series is the letter ‘Z’; I wish it was DragonBall through and through. And for the sake of my first example, I wish saiyans weren’t so powerful because you end up with little kids obviously surpassing legendary warriors..
-Rick

Ya, the discarding of all the "old school" major characters was really sad and made me really mad. At least Tien managed to make a few short cameos..

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:35 am

I kind of like Dragonball. The Goku is stronger than most enemies is better than the OMG! THIS GUY IS OVER OUR POWER! WE MUST TRAIN TILL OUR ASSES DROP OFF routine. I have to agree on the Tenkichi Budokai sagas, there were so nice. For once, if Goku loses we don't have to care(Not including Ma Jr as the world would be destroyed if Goku lose). We just want to see some good fights. Lucky Buu saga returned to this nice way of storytelling combind with the DBZ way of storytelling. It was the best saga ever.

Majin Buu · Post by **Majin Buu** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:58 pm

Out of everything DBZ covers, the Buu saga was the best. It wasn't a ridiculous slug fest like the past few sagas and relied on plot more than anything else.

I agree with you on the Buu saga being the best. Same with Gohanku. I always liked that the saga returned to the storytelling style of early to mid Dragonball.

wannywan · Post by **wannywan** » Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:36 pm

My criticisms of Dragonball/Z as a whole are:

1) The intensely long dragging out of everything.
2) Triangle crap guy.
3) Funimation's dub.

So to sum it all up, I mainly just read the manga and play the games as that is enough for me!

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:32 am

I don't have a criticism except for the whole "Z" change. I strongly take a stand in saying it should've been "Dragon Ball" through & through just like the manga. It's really unfortunate to see that Viz decided to add the "Z" like Toei did.

Smooth Criminal · Post by **Smooth Criminal** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 12:45 am

I agree that the Red Ribbon arc pretty much sucked ass. Especially in the anime. The only parts of that saga I really enjoyed was the stuff with Ninja Murasaki and Tao Pai Pai. It just dragged on and on and ON.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:06 am

Sebastian (SB) wrote:I don't have a criticism except for the whole "Z" change. I strongly take a stand in saying it should've been "Dragon Ball" through & through just like the manga. It's really unfortunate to see that Viz decided to add the "Z" like Toei did.

Reminds me of a question I thought I'd ask for the podcast.

JAPPO · Post by **JAPPO** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:08 am

I'm ashamed to say I never watched the full Dragonball series.

However, to make up for it, I watched the whole DBZ series maybe a million times.

I'm waiting for the Dragonball series to get remastered. Then I'll watch it ALL.

The red ribbon army saga I watched. I'm Canadian so I think it was an ocean dub. I liked it, actually.

Oh, and if you think Dragonball Z is long, I'd hate to think about how long Naruto is going to last...

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:45 am

great thread here.
I very much agree that Goku isnt too deep to become the focus of the show, which is why GT had its criticizing moments.

For me the best part of the show was the Saiyan and Namek sagas. The story kept building and building to a point where you were stuck to the screen in anticipation. I loved the multi plot narrative like having the G-force come 30 minutes before Goku was about to make his big landing, it didnt get better than this for me.

For me the Cell story was the least favorite. I mean, I loved the ending from when the cell games begin until the end, but the entire story was just so random. It seems that Akira had run out of things to do with 18 and 17 and so he had them drive around for 4 episodes doing nothing while Cell is killing people.
The end of that seems like he ran out of ideas and said: "Ok, lets all just stop and well meet in 10 days for the final battle"

I agree about Buu saga being in the spirit of the original dragonball, and for me thats why it was so great.

Dragon ball GT has too much criticism from angry fans. They make it seem like Goku is only fighting while the other fighters just sleep at home without showing them. Sure, they are not as central as in dragon ball Z (and only some parts because in Buu it was really Goku and Vegeta's story after the middle part).
But in the Bebi saga, it's the other characters who do everything while Goku only fires the last Kamahameha at Bebi.
In the super 17 saga the first half is all the fighters saving the world and then have their huge fight with super 17. The problem was that they lost, and that made fans very angry to have Goku come back as the last hope.
(Also this was the millionth time this happened: In saiyan saga with the afterlife, Namek with the ship, Cell with the heart virus, Buu while in heaven, Bebi while in that odd space dimension, Super 17 while in hell. Its always everyone losing while waiting for Goku to come and save them all.

But the show is so "human" that its impossible to not love it. I named the main things that sort of bother me, but in all its a classic show of how great anime can be.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:32 pm

I can find very little to criticize about the series that doesn't have to do with animation etc since I love it so darn much, but I would have to say the Cell saga was probably the low point of my enthusiasm as well. I suppose it was the whole emphasis on the saiyans on their powerups only that made the story pretty bland. I also found Cell to be a very boring villain once he became perfect, I really liked his imperfect design and personality better, much more sinister and despicable.

And about Gokuh possibly being a weak main character, I don't really think that's the case even though Gohan definitely should have been the focus of the "Z" series. He has more facets than people give him credit for. I found his late DB, early Z personality quite interesting since he had that whole conflict over giving his enemies mercy at the risk of endangering the world in the future, but that kind of went to blah after his transformation when he realizes that people like Freeza never learn their lesson. Also, during the Cell Games, there was his eerie optimism phase which was a strange shift in character for him... Anyway, what I mean to say is, he had some subtle character developments that probably weren't enough to drive such a massive story but kept him interesting enough as a character. I find him to be one of the only anime main characters I really admire, I mean, he like never falters, not even when he figures out that he comes from a race of evil aliens that sent him to destroy life on earth.

As for the Red Ribbon Army arc, I guess we have to remember that DB was still pretty much in its gag phase up until Tao Pai Pai and a solid story wasn't really all that important. Personally, I thought it was fitting for Gokuh to be kicking so much ass at the base considering he had just undergone training from Karin and I was interested to see what he could really do with his power. C'mon, you know it was cool.

I think I just blindly defended the series again when I was supposed to be criticizing it....

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:05 pm

I personally don't really like much after Goku defeats Freeza on Namek. The last half of DBZ did have good points (Kaioken ChiChi, Piccolo-Kami fusing, Goku vs Majin Vegeta, Vegetto) but the overall story just seems tacked on.

From the beginning to the deafeat of Freeza feels like a complete story. Goku grows up, makes friends, saves the world, then discovers his origins and avenges his race/saves the universe and becomes the Ultimate Warrior.

After that it...well, honestly, it turns into fanfiction. Rather bad fanfiction.

-Mr. Marty Stu...er, Trunks (The comes-out-of-nowhere kid of two established characters, angsty past/future, stronger than everybody (and a Super Saiyan! as strong as Goku!), saves them all, everybody likes him instantly except Vegeta who comes around eventually. If Bulma wasn't his mom, she'd be jumping his bones. Also a sword.)

-Everybody and their retarded kid can go Super Saiyan. It's like a DBZ RPG. (lol my chara looks just like gokuuu an hes a supa sayjin and hes seven lol)

-Older characters ignored cause the fanfic author doesn't like them.

-Characters being retarded because of twu wuv.

shannarafan · Post by **shannarafan** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:46 pm

Eh, I don't particularly mind the formulaic storyline and tacked-on feeling. The inconsistent animation bothers me way more.

The high point of the series for me is maybe the 23rd TB. The fights were awesome and I think the characters' personalities and designs were the best there. I also like the ending way better than Z's and GT's.

As for worst... I guess the Buu saga got pretty weak towards the end.

Oh, and I find Goku fascinating, though sometimes his ignorance and naivety (mainly in early DB) annoys me a little.

Rocketman wrote: If Bulma wasn't his mom, she'd be jumping his bones.

*plugs ears* LA LA LA LA LA

Aoi · Post by **Aoi** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:48 am

i agree. In the Cell saga, he was too convinced that Gohan was going to save the world. It was a miracle that he did, but not in the way he had imagined.

For me in Dragon ball Z and GT, it reviews like this (I dont remember Dragon ball too much, but i will by the dragon box soon and watch it again)

Saiyan saga- Perfect. I loved the story so much.
Namek- Very strange/original but the Frieeza fight was too long, but still great finale.
Cell- Hated the cyborgs, but the entire Trunks story was great for me. It got bad when cell came until the cell games when the story became a classic. (but for me "bad" means that its not as good as the rest, because i love everything dragon ball)
Buu- I loved it. Seeing the guys in their normal lives was fun and the entire saga was just so entertaining. Akira had to make it so strange because a show that ran as much as this one had to be different by now.

Bebi- very underrated (I think its the word). The saga had a good first half like the original dragon ball (old fans love it the most). Then I loved seeing how all the characters grew up and lived their lives like normal. Super Saiyan 4 was a great design and idea but it was a little too much for me seeing a new Super sAiyan level every new bad guy. The fight was very good and one of the best animated in dragon ball history.

Super 17/Dragons- The worst compared to all but still has good parts. I still try to make the arguement that they are 1 saga, with the super 17 fight being like the Ginyu force or the dabura fight, it all ties to the same story.
But its clear that TOEI wanted money and made the writters forget about story (like with Bebi) and make this all fighting. Too many things were done too fast.
Still it has many many "winks" to past dragon ball moments that only true fans will notice, also as 1 story, it has all the characters in history coming out for 1 final "fight/goodbye". All in all, i liked it but it was the worst compared to everything else for many obvious reasons.

Berserk · Post by **Berserk** » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:19 am

Personally for me the Cell ark was the best story/plot that akira toriyama ever came up with, in all of his manga's, it was just that good.

Kanzenshuu

Criticism of Dragonball

Criticism of Dragonball

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