Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

People are allowed to make up theories for this stuff however they see fit, especially when the content itself has done so darn little to actually explain anything. I'm fond of the "Goku can choose whether or not to use his god-ki" idea too — it's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why his Super Saiyan and SSGSS forms are separate options.

[Darkron2151]

Exactly why the "no"? In both the movie and Super, Beerus tells Goku when he's a Super Saiyan that he'd absorbed the power of SSJG so his power didn't really drop at all.

So SSJG = SSJ > Base

I see that moment in the episode more as Goku being, "caught up in the moment" while fighting. The same way Goku punched Beerus' ki ball away in Base afterward. Does that mean Base > SSJ? Looking at feats, yes it does. Or that could be just Goku accessing the power of SSG one last time before it is used up, but doesn't go away. Similar to how he transforms one last time in the movie to stop Beerus' ball yet again as SSG. So here's my theory:

• When Goku absorbed the "power" of the SSG, he didn't necessarily absorb the "godly ki" aspect of it. He then used up the rest of it's power at the end with Beerus both in Base and SSJ, mostly due to Goku's intense determination and fight spirit and bla bla bla. After that, he wasn't able to access the full power of it, yet it still was a part of his being and became a new threshold of power. He then started tapping into it via Whis' training, which not only allowed him to yet again use the full power of SSG as SSJ, but convert it into godly Ki, hence SSGSS. After he learned to fully control it, in order to hide his true power until later in the tournament, he suppressed the "godly ki" portion of his power and instead used his natural ki, hence the regular SSJ. It, however, backfired when Frost cheated. He even said, "I thought Super Saiyan would be enough, but I lost even with that".

[ZombieVito]

This theory seems more plausible by the minute.

Now I wonder, how strong is normal base Goku? I presume his gains are proportionate to the gap between SSG (6) and SSGSS.

[Khin]

There is another interesting point that can be made about Piccolo's Power level and the use of the SBP.

Back in the saiyan saga when he used it against Raditz his PL more than trippled:

Spoiler:

So maybe Piccolo used to the power boost given to him by the SBP before firing to keep up with and already tired Frost...

Nope.The Ki of Makankossapo as stated by Raditz is mainly from Piccolo's fingertips.His whole body wouldn't be as strong as his Makankossapo.

I was thinking about something: How the F*** was Piccolo killed by Freeza in RoF Arc? I mean didn't he said to Trunks in Boo Arc that he is only killed if his head is damaged? Also he didn't died in Namek Arc

The same how he was killed by Nappa.

[namekiansaiyan]

If Goku and Vegeta do currently have God Ki on then that would probably mean they are stonger than Beerus which I don't believe is true.

[Khin]

If Goku and Vegeta do currently have God Ki on then that would probably mean they are stonger than Beerus which I don't believe is true.

What ? How does having God ki makes them stronger than Beerus ?

[LowRyder2005]

Starting to envision a possible huge gap between ROF's Fourth Form Freeza and Golden Freeza.

[namekiansaiyan]

If Goku and Vegeta do currently have God Ki on then that would probably mean they are stonger than Beerus which I don't believe is true.

What ? How does having God ki makes them stronger than Beerus ?

If God ki increases his power and Super Saiyan Goku already looks really strong then using God Ki will make SSGSS ridiculously strong and maybe even stronger than Beerus. This will also make Frost and Piccolo extremely weak even though they are in the top 5 strongest fighters in each of their universes and don't give me crap that they are both weak either. Vados picked Frost so he must be strong and Beerus let Piccolo participate so they have to be strong. Monaka is also suppose to be stronger than Goku but weaker Beerus that is leaving a very small gap between each one which I do not think is the case. This is another reason why unless we are told Goku can switch God ki on or off I will assume it is always on.

[Khin]

If God ki increases his power then Super Saiyan Goku is already really strong and using God Ki will make SSGSS ridiculously strong and mayve even stronger than Beerus. This will also make Frost and Piccolo extremely weak even though they are in the top 5 strongest fighters in each of their universes and dont give me crap that they are both weak either. Vados picked Frost so he must be strong and Beerus let Piccolo participate so they have to be strong. Monaka is also suppose to be stronger than Goku but weaker Beerus that is leaving a very small gap between each one which I do not think is the case. This is another reason why unless we are told Goku can switch God ki on or off I will assume it is always on.

Nah.Everything still fits.Something like this :

Vados : 1,540
Whis : 1,500
Beerus : 1,000
Champa : 990
Monaka : 950
Goku (Champa Arc) : 450
--- Super Saiyan : 675
--- Super Saiyan Blue : 900
Frost : 225
--- Assault Form : 450
--- Final Form : 540
--- Tired : 480
Piccolo : 400
--- Makankossapo : 600 - 1,200

For reference

Freeza : 375
--- Golden Form : 850
--- Tired : 500

Goku (ROF Arc) : 375
--- Super Saiyan Blue : 750

SSG Goku (BOG Arc) : 450
--- Base (Post God) : 300
--- Super Saiyan (Post God) : 450

Beerus (BOG Arc) : 5

[namekiansaiyan]

If God ki increases his power then Super Saiyan Goku is already really strong and using God Ki will make SSGSS ridiculously strong and mayve even stronger than Beerus. This will also make Frost and Piccolo extremely weak even though they are in the top 5 strongest fighters in each of their universes and dont give me crap that they are both weak either. Vados picked Frost so he must be strong and Beerus let Piccolo participate so they have to be strong. Monaka is also suppose to be stronger than Goku but weaker Beerus that is leaving a very small gap between each one which I do not think is the case. This is another reason why unless we are told Goku can switch God ki on or off I will assume it is always on.

Nah.Everything still fits.Something like this :

Vados : 1,540
Whis : 1,500
Beerus : 1,000
Champa : 990
Monaka : 950
Goku (Champa Arc) : 450
--- Super Saiyan : 675
--- Super Saiyan Blue : 900
Frost : 225
--- Assault Form : 450
--- Final Form : 540
--- Tired : 480
Piccolo : 400
--- Makankossapo : 600 - 1,200

For reference

Freeza : 375
--- Golden Form : 850
--- Tired : 500

Goku (ROF Arc) : 375
--- Super Saiyan Blue : 750

SSG Goku (BOG Arc) : 450
--- Base (Post God) : 300
--- Super Saiyan (Post God) : 450

Beerus (BOG Arc) : 5

I still think
Beerus=Champa
Whis=Vados
and I would have Piccolo above Assault and just below final form Frost because the way Piccolo was speaking he seemed like he could take Assualt form easily and was trying to get an advantage by having Frost go down a transformation.

[ShinTenshin]

Frost is an ant compared to SSGOKU.
The difference between them could be massive like 1/5 or 1/10.
With just several punchs, frost is exhausted, Goku isn't even serious.
If Vegeta destroy Frost in Base, the gap will be huge.
And i don't understand why some people think base mode exceed 2, that's not at all what DBSUPER say....

The différence between base and SS is huge.
It's still a fucking MULTIPLIER, there is NO WAY that it's now DIFFERENT.
I still don't see base Goku stronger than 10% of Beerus.

[namekiansaiyan]

Frost is an ant compared to SSGOKU.
The difference between them could be massive like 1/5 or 1/10.
With just several punchs, frost is exhausted, Goku isn't even serious.
If Vegeta destroy Frost in Base, the gap will be huge.
And i don't understand why some people think base mode exceed 2, that's not at all what DBSUPER say....

The différence between base and SS is huge.
It's still a fucking MULTIPLIER, there is NO WAY that it's now DIFFERENT.
I still don't see base Goku stronger than 10% of Beerus.

That is why I think God ki is on all the time.

[LightBing]

The reasons I believe the two bases is unlikely is the lack of simplicity. There's no visual cue, there's nobody commenting on how much weaker Goku is, when he should be much stronger. While in RoF, we have Goku explaining that he now was using God Ki when turning SSJB and Kuririn mentioning how he could feel Goku in base but not while transformed.
Imagine later in the series, we would need a character all the time saying "Goku or Vegeta aren't using God Ki".
Mr.Toriyama said that Super would continue to be simple like Dragon Ball was, this two base concept goes completely against it.

I think it's more likely that Goku and Vegeta's bases are simply much weaker than originally thought. There's only one moment that makes Base=SSG and that's in the fight against Beerus.
I really like Darkron2151 theory here:

Spoiler:

I see that moment in the episode more as Goku being, "caught up in the moment" while fighting. The same way Goku punched Beerus' ki ball away in Base afterward. Does that mean Base > SSJ? Looking at feats, yes it does. Or that could be just Goku accessing the power of SSG one last time before it is used up, but doesn't go away. Similar to how he transforms one last time in the movie to stop Beerus' ball yet again as SSG. So here's my theory:

When Goku absorbed the "power" of the SSG, he didn't necessarily absorb the "godly ki" aspect of it. He then used up the rest of it's power at the end with Beerus both in Base and SSJ, mostly due to Goku's intense determination and fight spirit and bla bla bla. After that, he wasn't able to access the full power of it, yet it still was a part of his being and became a new threshold of power. He then started tapping into it via Whis' training, which not only allowed him to yet again use the full power of SSG as SSJ, but convert it into godly Ki, hence SSGSS. After he learned to fully control it, in order to hide his true power until later in the tournament, he suppressed the "godly ki" portion of his power and instead used his natural ki, hence the regular SSJ. It, however, backfired when Frost cheated. He even said, "I thought Super Saiyan would be enough, but I lost even with that".

Although I disagree Goku needs to suppress his God Ki. He can only use God Ki while in SSJ, which turns into SSJB. Him and Vegeta's training with Whis, was about discovering how to gain access to God Ki, remember the punch and both feeling the "blue".

[namekiansaiyan]

The reasons I believe the two bases is unlikely is the lack of simplicity. There's no visual cue, there's nobody commenting on how much weaker Goku is, when he should be much stronger. While in RoF, we have Goku explaining that he now was using God Ki when turning SSJB and Kuririn mentioning how he could feel Goku in base but not while transformed.
Imagine later in the series, we would need a character all the time saying "Goku or Vegeta aren't using God Ki".
Mr.Toriyama said that Super would continue to be simple like Dragon Ball was, this two base concept goes completely against it.

I think it's more likely that Goku and Vegeta's bases are simply much weaker than originally thought. There's only one moment that makes Base=SSG and that's in the fight against Beerus.
I really like Darkron2151 theory here:

Spoiler:

I see that moment in the episode more as Goku being, "caught up in the moment" while fighting. The same way Goku punched Beerus' ki ball away in Base afterward. Does that mean Base > SSJ? Looking at feats, yes it does. Or that could be just Goku accessing the power of SSG one last time before it is used up, but doesn't go away. Similar to how he transforms one last time in the movie to stop Beerus' ball yet again as SSG. So here's my theory:

When Goku absorbed the "power" of the SSG, he didn't necessarily absorb the "godly ki" aspect of it. He then used up the rest of it's power at the end with Beerus both in Base and SSJ, mostly due to Goku's intense determination and fight spirit and bla bla bla. After that, he wasn't able to access the full power of it, yet it still was a part of his being and became a new threshold of power. He then started tapping into it via Whis' training, which not only allowed him to yet again use the full power of SSG as SSJ, but convert it into godly Ki, hence SSGSS. After he learned to fully control it, in order to hide his true power until later in the tournament, he suppressed the "godly ki" portion of his power and instead used his natural ki, hence the regular SSJ. It, however, backfired when Frost cheated. He even said, "I thought Super Saiyan would be enough, but I lost even with that".

Although I disagree Goku needs to suppress his God Ki. He can only use God Ki while in SSJ, which turns into SSJB. Him and Vegeta's training with Whis, was about discovering how to gain access to God Ki, remember the punch and both feeling the "blue".

That is still very complicated
I just see it as:
Base Goku =base God power and ki after absorbing red hair and keeps red hair power
Super Saiyan is using more God Ki
Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan = 100% god ki

[apex_pretador]

Starting to envision a possible huge gap between ROF's Fourth Form Freeza and Golden Freeza.

It is.
Goku goes from a generic "Wow, really strong" to "Unbelievable, unthinkable, unimaginable"



Also, base never had god ki. Everyone was sensing him in rof.

No one commented that goku U6 was weaker than goku RoF.

[Bullza]

We also can't forget that Goku and Vegeta powering up their Ki internally is something that clearly has something to do with them becoming Super Saiyan Blue.

That's something that gets very overlooked here.

[apex_pretador]

We also can't forget that Goku and Vegeta powering up their Ki internally is something that clearly has something to do with them becoming Super Saiyan Blue.

That's something that gets very overlooked here.

wichi implies that SSB is a much bigger boost than we originally thought, and definitely a LOT bigger than a mealsy 2x or 3x.

[TheDBZmaster100]

I simply do not want both Goku and Vegeta to surpass the deities and their respective attendants.

[Noah]

I simply do not want both Goku and Vegeta to surpass the deities and their respective attendants.

Any reason why?

[GodVegetto91]

I don't understand the logic some people use regarding the whole idea that Goku can choose to "turn on/off" his god ki.. It seems completely illogical and goes against all logic and evidence the movies and Super has shown. When Goku lost his God Form in Super it was stated by Beerus that "regular" ssj Goku didn't decrease AT ALL. So SSJ Post = SSJ God. There's no other option. Then we have Feats and Statements that put Base Goku and Vegeta at least close to the level of Super Saiyan God.. So Goku can't turn it completely off. That sounds illogical and goes against all logic.
I'd rather they just go with the whole. i used only 1% of my God Ki against the u6 fighters (or whoever he fights that's supposively weak)