Plot Holes

[Hellspawn28]

#8 is likely similar to #17 and #18 which can explain why he is brought back. #16 was never likely brought back given that he was nowhere seen or mention ever again after Cell.

[Korppi]

#8 is likely similar to #17 and #18 which can explain why he is brought back. #16 was never likely brought back given that he was nowhere seen or mention ever again after Cell.

How Android 8 isn't a total artificial construct type? So does it mean that Android 8 is made from an original human (?) as a base?

[Analytic]

Why not?
1. We are NOT talking about a total filler scene that Toei pulled out of their ass like the other world tournament for example.
2. The anime added to the story many things that were described in interviews by Toriyama but not appeared in the manga.
3. People here are so adamant that base Super Buu>>kid Buu that they even hold the belief that new canon anime continuation of Dragonball Super follows that logic. They end up coming up with the most ridiculous headcanons to explain things that are otherwise contradictory to their theories but fairly straightforward when you accept kid Buu>Super Buu. Besides Toei always corrected things in later arcs that were serious plot-points even if that meant retconning their own filler. See origin of Dragonballs and even trivial things like Vegeta's hair colour. And in Super episode 2 it states that Goku is the #1. You may want to twist the meaning if you wish but that doesn't change what is really stated.
5. Even now in DBSuper Goku considers Buu crazy strong and is excited in the prospect of fighting a kid Buu's level opponent again.

1. Yes, we are. The line (and fight prior to the line) aren't in the manga, meaning it is a "total filler scene."
2. Okay, what says that the line claiming Pure Boo is the strongest Boo is one of those things?
3. To call you a hypocrite would be a colossal understatement. Who's the one twisting the meanings behind statements here? Apparently a direct statement saying that Son Goku can't defeat Evil Boo actually means that Goku can defeat Evil Boo; yet a vague statement that doesn't even specify Son Gohan automatically means that Goku is stronger than Gohan?
5. Your point being?. Even if Pure Boo was stronger than Ultimate Gohan (he's not), that level of power is still pathetic to SSGSS level. Son Goku's excitement about fighting Oob can simply be justified by Son expecting Oob to have far greater potential and not be limited to Pure Boo's level. This argument hinges on nitpicking anyway, as it's said in Super that Son Gohan has the greatest potential out of all of them.

Why do I even need to resort to that? In case you didn't notice I dispute that the SSJ power ups are static multipliers. You think they are due to your databook multipliers' maths yet you have the cheek to tell me to not take into consideration the anime because it's outside of the manga material. Neither are the databooks.

Beg pardon? If you bothered to thoroughly read my post, you'd see that I never once mentioned anything about "databooks." You don't even need a databook to see that Base Son Goku being able to put up a fight against Ultimate Gohan is absolutely absurd. Son Goku with Super Saiyan 2 (which is obviously stronger than his base form) is no match for Fat Boo, while Ultimate Gohan decimated an even stronger Boo. Base Goku isn't close to Ultimate Gohan.

1. Goku may had just been referring to the state they were in (SSJ2). He may have said so in order to not humiliate Vegeta (you will be killed but I, the SSJ3 will not) who had previously even died thinking that was equal to Goku. So he downplayed the importance of the SSJ3 power up and sought to defeat Super Buu through collaboration.
2. That statement was made on Earth. It was in the living world where time flows. In the other world he could he could possibly sustain a higher power up implied in ch. 476 even in a living body.
3. When everyone was revived Goku suggested to bring BOTH Gohan AND Gotenks in order to HELP them against kid Buu. If Kid Buu<Super Buu then Gohan alone would be able to one shot him.
4. Why did Goku requested for kid Buu to come back as a good person for a rematch if his own son could offer him a much much bigger challenge?
5. Kid Buu was described as the most troublesome Buu and in the context it was said it was implied as being an unstoppable troublemaker ... a stoppable one is of not much to fear about. And in Dragonball "DBZ era" everything boils down to strength about whether someone can be stopped causing trouble or not.

1. What? Son Goku sure didn't care about "humiliating" Vegeta ten minutes later against Pure Boo. Not only that, but Vegeta already knew that Son Goku had SS3 and was far stronger than him. He even told Son Goku that.
2. Yet against Pure Boo he never thinks that he can't win because of this living body issue. If he can't beat someone he's stronger than with the SS3 strain, why would he think that he could beat someone even stronger with the same strain?
3. He was only trying to guess what Vegeta's plan was, not suggesting any ideas. He also never said "help" fight, just fight.
4. Who said that Oob would be limited to just Pure Boo's level? Not only that but one could really interpret it as Son Goku being too far outclassed by Son Gohan and wanting Oob so he could have someone one his own level.
5. A spontaneous planet buster who acts on instinct is troublesome/dangerous and could be considered unstoppable because he can destroy the planet that Goku/Vegeta are on before they can even react. Not only that, but I'm quite sure that Pure Boo was never described as "unstoppable."

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

#8 is likely similar to #17 and #18 which can explain why he is brought back. #16 was never likely brought back given that he was nowhere seen or mention ever again after Cell.

How Android 8 isn't a total artificial construct type? So does it mean that Android 8 is made from an original human (?) as a base?

Yeah, he's from a human base.

[apex_pretador]

This Plot Hole:
Why wasn't Android 16 revived by Shenron when it wished that the lives of all of Cell's victims are brought back to life? Because he's a completely synthetic android and never genuinely alive like Androids 17 and 18, right? But... Android 8, also truly robotic, is revived by Dragon Balls after probably being killed either by Super Buu Genocide Blast or when Kid Buu blew up Earth. And that's not filler, Android 8 and Suno are seen supplying Goku with their energy to use the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu in the manga. Well, so maybe Android 16 is alive somewhere?

we don't know.

Also, this IS a plot hole as shenron must be able to repair a robot dr gero made

[Khin]

What are some plot holes in the series ? Here's some i know.

• Also a fixed one.Jheese and Burta's scouters reads Vegeta's Power level against Recoome as 20,000,when his Power level when he arrived on Namek was 24,000.
• The Dragon Balls being active in the Freeza Arc when they used it to revive the Namekians when it was used to revive Goku not too long ago.

• Vegeta might be suppressed
• Kami died & got revived, and same happened to DB's

• That scene was when Vegeta was powering up to fight against Recoome.So no.It makes 0 sense for Vegeta to fight Recoome with his power supressed.
• Unless i miss something.Kami being revived doesn't mean the Dragon Balls will also revived.They should still be stone at that time.

[Hitiro]

This Plot Hole:
Why wasn't Android 16 revived by Shenron when it wished that the lives of all of Cell's victims are brought back to life? Because he's a completely synthetic android and never genuinely alive like Androids 17 and 18, right? But... Android 8, also truly robotic, is revived by Dragon Balls after probably being killed either by Super Buu Genocide Blast or when Kid Buu blew up Earth. And that's not filler, Android 8 and Suno are seen supplying Goku with their energy to use the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu in the manga. Well, so maybe Android 16 is alive somewhere?

You could argue that Android 8 was restored when they wished for Earth to be returned to the way it was before. Cars and houses were restored when the Earth was brought back. So I would say that Android 8 would effectively qualify as a car. Also, everything in the universe has Ki. Whether it be a rock or a star. So Android 8 providing Genki is not something that is unlikely. Though I'd imagine his Genki is much lower than a humans as the Genki would come from the materials he is made of and not him.

[Korppi]

This Plot Hole:
Why wasn't Android 16 revived by Shenron when it wished that the lives of all of Cell's victims are brought back to life? Because he's a completely synthetic android and never genuinely alive like Androids 17 and 18, right? But... Android 8, also truly robotic, is revived by Dragon Balls after probably being killed either by Super Buu Genocide Blast or when Kid Buu blew up Earth. And that's not filler, Android 8 and Suno are seen supplying Goku with their energy to use the Spirit Bomb against Kid Buu in the manga. Well, so maybe Android 16 is alive somewhere?

You could argue that Android 8 was restored when they wished for Earth to be returned to the way it was before. Cars and houses were restored when the Earth was brought back. So I would say that Android 8 would effectively qualify as a car. Also, everything in the universe has Ki. Whether it be a rock or a star. So Android 8 providing Genki is not something that is unlikely. Though I'd imagine his Genki is much lower than a humans as the Genki would come from the materials he is made of and not him.

Good point.

[Cetra]

Geekdom made a video not too long ago about one of the interviews with Toriyama-san in which he mentioned the first Jinzouningen were cyborgs, and the next (I guess the ones from the movies) were androids like 16 and 19. And for what its worth, even the Androids have AIs so I would not see an error in that anyway.

[Desassina]

It's still illogical when we're told by Kibitoshin that it was specifically Dai Kaioushin that affected him negatively

I'll play the role of a guy who sticks to the manga with the blinders on to everything else, and now I agree with you.

We don't need to make a different rule of power for Dai Kaioshin if his nature suppressed it, while South Kaioshin's influence didn't change his clothes, but added power to Super Buu. His sturdiness (the best among all Kaioshins) could be a sign of strength and bulk though, so when Buff Buu reverts by shrinking, Goku is more hopeful than when he thought that Buu was an awfully bulky guy.

So, we have two factors here: strength and power. The former could be related to bulkiness when compared to Kid Buu, who is more manageable now than Super Buu's strength was, while power was only added to Super Buu with no signs of loss from Buff Buu's reversal. Therefore:
- Buff Buu is more powerful than Super Buu, with the possibility of strength being shared;
- Kid Buu is weaker than both, but he has the power of Buff Buu, because it didn't go away.

This is pretty much the facts added together for a non-linear comparison of power and strength.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

#16 and #19 are described as "Artificial Constructs" in the history of Androids chart, while #17, #18, and Gero are called Cyborgs. There's nothing that totally describes what #8 is, but his behavior is more similar to humans (crying and eating food) than it is to #19 or #16. I'd say he's made from a human base.

[Hellspawn28]

#8 is design after Frankenstein's monster and I remember Frankenstein's monster was assembled from old body parts and strange chemicals. I guess it was possible that Dr. Gero give #8 a soul while #16 never had one since he was never compete.

[Sandubadear]

Daizenshuu 7 says #8 was made from a human base:

人造人間8号
Cyborg #8
Cyborg made by Dr. Gero.
[His.] He has a human base, and was originally human. Per Gokuu's suggestion, he changes his name to Hatchan. He was equipped with a self-destruct mechanism, but that has now been uninstalled, and he lives with Jingle Village's village elder.
[Fir.] Chapter 062
[Par.] A Cyborg prepared as a trump card in defense of the Red Ribbon Army's northern base, Muscle Tower. He has tremendous power, but he dislikes conflict and becomes friends with Gokuu. Furthermore, from #9 on, the Cyborgs were all created for the elimination of SON Gokuu. (Daizenshuu 2, Page 172 / 4, Page 160)
[Bat.] Angry at White, who had injured Gokuu, he knocked him far into the distance.
[A.] There is background information that says that #8's creator is Dr. Frappe. Could it be that Dr. Frappe and Dr. Gero were colleagues in a Cyborg development team?

[Darkprince410]

Daizenshuu 7 says #8 was made from a human base:

Unfortunately, Toriyama's Q & A for the Cell Saga section of the Full Color Manga indicates that #8 was entirely artificial, like #19.

Q4: What kind of Artificial Humans were Nos. 1–8?

Entirely artificial, like No. 19!

The sole weakness of the genius Dr. Gero’s inventions was that “personality control” didn’t work well, so that’s believed to be the reason why he changed his methods to using humans who were bad to begin with and remodeling them into Artificial Humans, like Nos. 17 and 18. It was thought that he had succeeded with cyborg-types, but ultimately, these were also failures because they wouldn’t listen to orders the way he wanted. He reversed course again, and No. 19 was his first success.

[Speedster]

Why do I even need to resort to that? In case you didn't notice I dispute that the SSJ power ups are static multipliers. You think they are due to your databook multipliers' maths yet you have the cheek to tell me to not take into consideration the anime because it's outside of the manga material. Neither are the databooks.

Beg pardon? If you bothered to thoroughly read my post, you'd see that I never once mentioned anything about "databooks." You don't even need a databook to see that Base Son Goku being able to put up a fight against Ultimate Gohan is absolutely absurd. Son Goku with Super Saiyan 2 (which is obviously stronger than his base form) is no match for Fat Boo, while Ultimate Gohan decimated an even stronger Boo. Base Goku isn't close to Ultimate Gohan.

You randomly asserted that I was supporting base Goku>Ultimate Gohan – something I never said. Then I wondered why would I even need to resort to such a claim in order to support that kid Buu>Super Buu, only for you to misunderstand again. I would suggest you to first try to comprehend others’ posts and sort out your own confusions before accusing them that they didn't bother to thoroughly read your posts and then responding by randomly asserting even more things that were never said.

To be fair, the Daizenshuu differentiate between the manga and anime. Half of them are devoted exclusively to one or the other, while the big encyclopedia (7, I think?) marks which content is anime only, if I'm not mistaken.

This notion of "the guidebooks" being a single cohesive whole really needs to stop, especially considering that 99% of the fanbase that constantly (mis)quotes them has never even looked at them.

Yes, but does this make the guidebooks source material written by Toriyama though? No. Whenever discussing this topic we have the following paradoxical logic: “We discard the anime because it is not written by Toriyama but we accept the guidebooks despite not being written by Toriyama either!”. Where is the logic in this? Logically if you claim that you only use what is written by Toriyama to defend your arguments (that are disproved if you start taking non-Toriyama material into account) then your only source must be the manga and Toriyama's interviews. Not the databooks.

Additionally the x2 and x4 static multipliers for SSJ2 and SSJ3 come from the 2009 Super Exciting Guide (SEG), not Daizenshuu. Also SEG has been proved to be wrong and/or retconned on some matters so it is definitely not a guidebook that should be taken as some kind of Dragonball gospel. Just look at the lore of Kaios and Kaioshins which we even know that came from Toriyama himself. Imagine how much authority two numbers that didn't come directly from Toriyama hold.

Except the line in question can literally be taken in multiple regards whereas the context is clear with the examples you supplied. It is not stated how this Boo is troublesome. It could be because he is crazy and will blow up a planet without a seconds notice, which he does attempt. Or it could be pertaining to strength. Or it could be that this Boo is troublesome because there would be literally no reasoning with him unlike the other two Boo's. Mr. Satan was a big influence on Fat Boo and Evil Boo would not hurt him either.

So therefore you're of the opinion that it is something like this:
Fat Boo: 250
Evil Boo: 300
Ultimate Gohan: 350
SSJ3 Goku: 400
Boohan: 350 + 300 = 650
Pure Boo: 700
SSJ3 Goku(100%): 750

^Where is the logic in this?

And the word “entertaining” when used by Beerus about Vegeta being more “entertaining” could be argued using a similar logic that it has multiple meanings but Beerus was clearly referring to strength. Additionally it also disproves the notion that SSJ are static multipliers and the theory that anyone’s maximum possible power level with the Super Saiyan linage is only a static x400 your base. Goku’s and Vegeta’s bases were more or less equal (if anything Goku’s would likely be slightly stronger) so SSJ2 Vegeta was like 800x the base which would be impossible if base*400 is the SSJ lineage's limit. Also SSJ3 was previously stated in the guidebooks (that you so much like to use) that SSJ3 brings you to your limits - what is to say that Goku can't break his limits and didn't do so during his fight with kid Buu? And as I said before Goku's and kid Buu's fight took place in the other world where time doesn't flow and this might have affected how much power Goku can put forward before becoming unstainable for his living body as opposed to on Earth where time flows. Last but not least the debate is about kid Buu Vs base Super Buu. Not kid Buu versus Buuhan. Kid Buu could well only be the strongest Buu without fusion as that appeared from Goku's perspective. Fat Buu, Grey (Evil) Buu, base Super Buu, kid Buu are all Buus that when viewed from Goku's perspective are just Buu. Whereas Buuhan or Buutenks had observable (by Goku) added members from his friends and family.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The Kaioshin world is its own place. It isn't the Otherworld.

The only thing Goku said is that he would fight with his all. We have no reason to assume he accessed anything other than the actual power he's had from the jump. The fact that he'd rather merge permanently than fight Super Boo already shows he's the more powerful Boo compared to Kid Boo.

[Tsufuru]

couldnt the kaioshin just ask zuno where babidi was hiding?
does this count as a plot hole?

super buu>kid buu.

[Hitiro]

And the word “entertaining” when used by Beerus about Vegeta being more “entertaining” could be argued using a similar logic that it has multiple meanings but Beerus was clearly referring to strength. Additionally it also disproves the notion that SSJ are static multipliers and the theory that anyone’s maximum possible power level with the Super Saiyan linage is only a static x400 your base. Goku’s and Vegeta’s bases were more or less equal (if anything Goku’s would likely be slightly stronger) so SSJ2 Vegeta was like 800x the base which would be impossible if base*400 is the SSJ lineage's limit. Also SSJ3 was previously stated in the guidebooks (that you so much like to use) that SSJ3 brings you to your limits - what is to say that Goku can't break his limits and didn't do so during his fight with kid Buu? And as I said before Goku's and kid Buu's fight took place in the other world where time doesn't flow and this might have affected how much power Goku can put forward before becoming unstainable for his living body as opposed to on Earth where time flows. Last but not least the debate is about kid Buu Vs base Super Buu. Not kid Buu versus Buuhan. Kid Buu could well only be the strongest Buu without fusion as that appeared from Goku's perspective. Fat Buu, Grey (Evil) Buu, base Super Buu, kid Buu are all Buus that when viewed from Goku's perspective are just Buu. Whereas Buuhan or Buutenks had observable (by Goku) added members from his friends and family.

I have argued that the Beerus using the word "entertaining" does not have to mean that he had fun due to the strength of the individual. And I actually stand by this affirmation. Why would Beerus be referring to strength in this regard when Vegeta made him barely use 10%? Likewise Goku said that Oob was entertaining. Yet Goku was vastly superior to him at this point and he had fought numerous individuals who are more powerful going by Dragon Ball Super. Beerus has also fought against Monaka. If anything I would be bored with Vegeta's current strength level as it would effectively mean I just need to flex a finger. And how does this disprove that SSJ forms are static multipliers or the theory that anyone's maximum possible power level with the SSJ forms is only a static x400 your base? It has long been proved that characters can receive rage boosts which push them to higher levels. Gohan was a prime example of this. Vegeta got angry and he received a boost equivalent to that. And you can't say that they were even at the time of BoG or say that Goku was superior. There really is no way to discern which of the two is stronger in equivalent forms. All we know is Vegeta got a rage boost and that rage boost was enough for him to surpass SSJ3 Goku's battle power. One could argue that Vegeta, by the time of BoG, had one upped Goku in terms of equivalent transformations and the only reason Goku was still ahead of him was because he had SSJ3. Back to the fight with Goku vs. Boo, Goku does not have the necessity of getting a rage boost to push beyond his limits if that truly is a feature of rage boosts. If we're saying that rage boosts can allow you to go beyond your limits then it would be possible for Goku to surpass Pure Boo. But Goku was not enraged. So he would not pass his limit. But it should be pointed out that the anime and manga have proven that a character can't go beyond their limits. Unless they are charging that energy into some sort of attack like Piccolo did in Dragon Ball Super or like Goku did against Cell or like Vegeta did against Cell or like Piccolo did against Raditz. That has been the only way for them to do it.

If you go back and read what I stated in my last post you would know that they aren't in other world when they fight. The Kaioshin planet does not exist in other world. It's in its own place. Check the Daizenshuu 4 map of the universe. Furthermore Goku's talk about this was a figure of speech. Time exists everywhere in the universe. He was pertaining to him being dead in this dialogue, not some magical other dimension that doesn't have time. Time has to flow in other world otherwise the Kaio and Kaioshin would never age. But they clearly do age and die. So Goku isn't going to be stronger or more powerful even if he was in other world, which he isn't. And even if you want to argue that time doesn't flow there and that he was indeed in other world it doesn't give his transformations more power. All it would mean is he has more stamina to maintain his full power. If you're going to bring in the Boo's without fusion material then Goku viewed Evil Boo as being the product of fusion material too. So you could argue that Goku was only talking about Pure Boo and Mr. Boo. He clearly makes the distinction that Evil Boo is more powerful because he absorbed the Fat Boo.

[Desassina]

Can't we simplify things? Yes, the Buu saga has ended with Goku being the strongest, because he fought the toughest battle against Kid Buu, while Gohan was standing on Earth waiting for it to be finished. How likely it is for someone who doesn't fight to be the strongest? Saiyans, humans and even Namekians grow their battle power the more they fight, rest and heal, push their limits and meditate, for example, making it totally unpredictable, if not because it drops with damage and strain as well.

We're stuck framing things the old fashioned way, without considering that Goku and Vegeta were healed upon fusing with the potara earrings, which means that their power has increased upon separation as well. Add to that their limits being pushed to match Kid Buu's power, their stamina being restored, Super Buu taking damage from fighting with Gotenks and Gohan, and then reverting to a form whose power may have returned as well.

We only have situational references and comparisons, which make it possible for Goku to end up stronger than he was against Fat Buu, when Gotenks and Gohan grew even stronger, only for them to be surpassed at the end. It means that Goku's power grew by fighting and getting used to his SSJ3 form. He wasn't always the strongest, even if he was at the beginning of the arc. However, there's no denying that Gotenks and Gohan fought with greater power for a few moments, until they were cast aside.

For all intents and purposes, what DB Super so clearly claims is not farfetched, nor does it contradict the manga. Kid Buu was the strongest back when no other Majin Buu existed, except for Fat Buu, whose power was dropping. We don't have clear feats or statements that compare Super Buu and Kid Buu.

[Darkprince410]

And the word “entertaining” when used by Beerus about Vegeta being more “entertaining” could be argued using a similar logic that it has multiple meanings but Beerus was clearly referring to strength. Additionally it also disproves the notion that SSJ are static multipliers and the theory that anyone’s maximum possible power level with the Super Saiyan linage is only a static x400 your base. Goku’s and Vegeta’s bases were more or less equal (if anything Goku’s would likely be slightly stronger) so SSJ2 Vegeta was like 800x the base which would be impossible if base*400 is the SSJ lineage's limit. Also SSJ3 was previously stated in the guidebooks (that you so much like to use) that SSJ3 brings you to your limits - what is to say that Goku can't break his limits and didn't do so during his fight with kid Buu? And as I said before Goku's and kid Buu's fight took place in the other world where time doesn't flow and this might have affected how much power Goku can put forward before becoming unstainable for his living body as opposed to on Earth where time flows. Last but not least the debate is about kid Buu Vs base Super Buu. Not kid Buu versus Buuhan. Kid Buu could well only be the strongest Buu without fusion as that appeared from Goku's perspective. Fat Buu, Grey (Evil) Buu, base Super Buu, kid Buu are all Buus that when viewed from Goku's perspective are just Buu. Whereas Buuhan or Buutenks had observable (by Goku) added members from his friends and family.

1) Who says that Vegeta's rage boost only affected his Ssj2 battle power? For all we know, that rage boost temporarily pushed his base strength up considerably, and his Ssj transformations simply scaled up accordingly. If Goku and Vegeta were even before the rage boost strength wise, all it'd take is a boost of over 4x to his base form to pass up Ssj3 Goku's strength while in his Ssj2 form.

2) Kaioushin's planet doesn't exist in the afterlife. It's been shown to exist in a realm outside that of the universe, both the living universe and the afterlife. As such, there's no reason to believe the rules of time of the afterlife apply there.

3) Goku still said that he and Vegeta had no chance against base Evil Buu on their own, with fusion being their only option to win. He didn't even want to try to fight Buu on their own until they had managed to make him weaker than Evil Buu was, yet was perfectly okay with trying to fight Pure Buu on his own. And, as you said, by the point that he had made that comment, Goku wasn't aware that Evil Buu was still a "merged" form of Buu, as he was unaware that Mr. Buu had been absorbed to cause the tranformation, so any notion that he wanted to fuse because Buu was still "multiple people" is baseless.