I feel Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku again is ruining DB

[Bansho64]

Freeza kept Vegeta as a pet. Look at how Kui, Dodoria, Zarbon, and the Ginyus treat him. Vegeta spent decades being a good little whipped dog, keeping his head down. That's why he hated Freeza so much in the first place.

Exactly. Goku states after Vegeta's death that the reason for his anger and sadness wasn't at the death of his comrades, his father, or even his own planet. It was the fact that Freeza molded him into his own personal play toy that truly hurt Vegeta.

No Vegeta said Frieza made him ruthless which is different than using him as a personal play toy like youre trying to say.

After his defeat at the hands of Frieza, Vegeta tearfully explains to Goku that Frieza forced him to be ruthless and that he never had the chance to be anything else (implying that he could have been kinder and more merciful were it not for Frieza).

That's not what he said in the original. That's a Dub line. The original line never has him saying that.

[TheMikado]

No Vegeta said Frieza made him ruthless which is different than using him as a personal play toy like youre trying to say.

After his defeat at the hands of Frieza, Vegeta tearfully explains to Goku that Frieza forced him to be ruthless and that he never had the chance to be anything else (implying that he could have been kinder and more merciful were it not for Frieza).

That's not what he said in the original. That's a Dub line. The original line never has him saying that.

I agree and dont believe this is an actual line either, but I don't respond to someone using it as evidence with its not valid because of X technicality I am just showing, regardless of whether its a valid line or not, its consistent. And the person paraphrasing the false quote as evidence didnt even paraphrase it correctly.

[Bansho64]

My apologies, I am still struggling on how to quote things.

[Soppa Saia People]

So is the very specific thing I referenced false? That's like saying the Bible is full of made up stories so Egyptians never existed.

What ? This is getting stupid.

[TheMikado]

Every single line you just gave was either made up in the Funimation Dub, or a filler scene that was messed up by the dub.

Then please tell me what was actually said in the Guldo exchange and the exchange between Zarbon and Frieza. I'd love to know what was actually said...

Both are filler scenes. Look, Freeza doesn't seem to physically abuse Vegeta, but the Saiyans aren't highly respected in the inner circle. They look down on the Saiyans to their face. Hell, the Ginyu Force constantly mocked him, but Vegeta waits to make his move.

Since the goal posts keep moving from Frieza to Freeza's henchmen or to filler anime, I will just try to wrap this up in one concise post so that people can argue it.

Frieza DID NOT treat Vegeta badly. Vegeta was the son of King Vegeta who Frieza allowed to keep Saiyan autonomy until they mutinied. Further Vegeta was used a brokering piece and assurance of peace between them . This is generally done when one country is in service to another but is allowed to still operate independently within reason. Furthermore after the mutiny Frieza DO NOT kill the son of the Mutineer but instead as he grows older promotes him to serve directly under Frieza. Remember in Frieza's empire only the head captains/commanders reported directly to Frieza. This put Ginyu, Zarbon, etc. as organizational equals despite Vegeta only having a 3 man team and significantly weaker. Even Guldo reported to Captain Ginyu and thus was not technically as high ranked as Vegeta. That being said it created animosity from the rest of Freeza's force because Vegeta was under explicit protection by Frieza which the others allude two multiple times by saying Frieza isnt there to protect him. In addition, Frieza himself acknowledges Vegeta is given far more leeway to be disrespectful and dismissive of Frieza where other members in his force are killed instantly for far less transgressions. So yes, everyone else in Freeza's force hates Vegeta because he has special priveledge and protection that he shouldnt.

That being said the interactions with the people who DO mock Vegeta are ALWAYS tense. Vegeta is never shown, sitting and having a drink or a slumber party with these guys. He is always at these other guys throats and threatening that he will eventually kill them. And then proceeds to do it once he actually becomes strong enough.

Now back to the original issue which is Vegeta's interactions with Beerus. Vegeta is ALWAYS silently defiant to BOTH Frieza and the others on the force who mock him. Despite Frieza treating him far better comparatively then anyone else in his organization. Beerus on the other hand ACTIVELY embarasses and humiliates Vegeta. Yet, Vegeta seems to blow it off without a thought and worse is silently COMPLIANT rather than silently DEFIANT. There is a huge world of difference in terms of personality there. He allows Beerus to disrespect him with no visible or silent pushback while even over small comments Vegeta would threaten foes much stronger then himself, or even he would kill them over. Again I am fine with character development, but to take a character like Vegeta and have his treatment by Beerus appear have no tangible affect on his ego is sloppy character writing. Especially when this has been a LARGE, YUGE part of his character since his inception. So using the Argument that Beerus treats Vegeta like Frieza did is in no way accurate at all. Frieza treated Vegeta with far more respect and Vegeta still showed far more defiance. Versus Beerus (I'm a God so I'm gonna treat you however I like) and Vegeta basically saying (Yes Sir, may I have another after Beerus B*tch slaps him and his wife.)

You cannot make the argument that his reaction to these situations now are good character development when we literally see in a previous Arc where he retains that fiery indignation that we have always known Vegeta to have and it suddenly disappears in order to move the plot forward. Its terribly sloppy writing and character development, theres no way around it and it throws out everything we know about the characters personality thats developed over several years.

[Kamiccolo9]

Look how Freeza talks to Vegeta in the manga.

Not filler.
Not the dub.
And especially not filler scenes in the dub.

Freeza treats Vegeta like a pet dog. He talks nice to him and will dress him up pretty every now and then to show off to his friends, but will kick him when he gets annoying.

[ABED]

How did they keep their autonomy?

Vegeta wasn't used to broker peace. King Vegeta had no leverage. Vegeta was used to threaten King Vegeta into compliance. Freeza didn't kill Vegeta because he thought he could be useful, that doesn't equal being treated well. Vegeta is one of the stronger members of his empire, but that doesn't equal respected. Zarbon, the Ginyu Force, etc. aren't equals with Vegeta. They are much stronger than him until his battle on Earth. Guldo reported to Ginyu but that doesn't make him lower ranked than Vegeta.

Frieza himself acknowledges Vegeta is given far more leeway to be disrespectful and dismissive of Frieza where other members in his force are killed instantly for far less transgressions. So yes, everyone else in Freeza's force hates Vegeta because he has special priveledge and protection that he shouldn't

When does he say this? Please don't use the dub. Freeza probably does give him more leeway, but that's not the same as respecting him. Freeza kills people on a whim.

Vegeta seems to blow it off without a thought and worse is silently COMPLIANT rather than silently DEFIANT.

He changed. He grew up and learned.

Again I am fine with character development, but to take a character like Vegeta and have his treatment by Beerus appear have no tangible affect on his ego is sloppy character writing. Especially when this has been a LARGE, YUGE part of his character since his inception.

How is that sloppy? He changed. He finally let go of his biggest insecurity. And when did he ever attack someone who he knew was far stronger than him for a pithy insult?

we literally see in a previous Arc where he retains that fiery indignation that we have always known Vegeta to have and it suddenly disappears in order to move the plot forward.

When? Are you referring to the moment where he gets upset after Beerus hits Bulma? If that's the case, that's not the same thing. He was reacting to more than an insult, he was reacting to an injustice. I don't think you understand who Vegeta is at his core.

[Bansho64]

The problem here is that we're clashing two different versions of the same characters.

[TheMikado]

Look how Freeza talks to Vegeta in the manga.

Not filler.
Not the dub.
And especially not filler scenes in the dub.

Freeza treats Vegeta like a pet dog. He talks nice to him and will dress him up pretty every now and then to show off to his friends, but will kick him when he gets annoying.

Since there seems to be a no filler, no dub rule can you show me where this interaction is?? Or at least the manga volume.

[ABED]

The dub takes a lot of liberties with characterization and dialog. You don't even make it clear that you are using the dub, you seem to assume the two versions are the same.

[TheMikado]

The dub takes a lot of liberties with characterization and dialog. You don't even make it clear that you are using the dub, you seem to assume the two versions are the same.

It will be way easier to ask this then to reply to your previous post. I'll ask you when I can go to be proven wrong, I.e. What should I look at specifically to see Frieza didn't respect Vegeta. Vegeta reacts to injustice. And that his core is different from someone who easily and willingly complies. My point I've been making is historically no where has Vegeta willingly complied to indignity. He has defiantly suffered indignity but never willingly complied with goes against his established personality. We can say he changed with hand waving but that's not consistent with what we've known about Vegeta for decades in the in universe timeline.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Vegeta you are referencing is a warped parody of the original version that has totally different motivations and behaviors. We're not even having the same conversation here because your frame of reference is so far off base from the actual character.

[TheMikado]

The Vegeta you are referencing is a warped parody of the original version that has totally different motivations and behaviors. We're not even having the same conversation here because your frame of reference is so far off base from the actual character.

That's why I'm asking you to point me to the right media with specific instances that I should be looking at. I'm willing to be wrong but I need to see this tortured, meek Vegeta you're talking about being present before super.

[ABED]

The Vegeta you are referencing is a warped parody of the original version that has totally different motivations and behaviors. We're not even having the same conversation here because your frame of reference is so far off base from the actual character.

That's why I'm asking you to point me to the right media with specific instances that I should be looking at. I'm willing to be wrong but I need to see this tortured, meek Vegeta you're talking about being present before super.

Who said he was meek?

[Vynak]

Watch the subbed version of DBZ or read the manga. Both can be found easily online for free.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Vegeta you are referencing is a warped parody of the original version that has totally different motivations and behaviors. We're not even having the same conversation here because your frame of reference is so far off base from the actual character.

That's why I'm asking you to point me to the right media with specific instances that I should be looking at. I'm willing to be wrong but I need to see this tortured, meek Vegeta you're talking about being present before super.

Get Viz's manga. That's the closest English approximation of the source material.

[Chuquita]

Bulma wants to take revenge on Beerus (or at least stop any further bullying of Vegeta) for him bullying Vegeta; I hope she gets to carry that out.

[TheMikado]

Bulma wants to take revenge on Beerus (or at least stop any further bullying of Vegeta) for him bullying Vegeta; I hope she gets to carry that out.

Right Vegeta has always been man enough to deal with his own bullies or at least threaten them and explicitly plot their deaths. Bulma has been the only person in Dragonball history he has willingly allowed to bully him without consequence, up until Beerus..

As far as the mangas, just read some and it looks like not only did it not show Frieza mistreat Vegeta but also gives him an opportunity for redemption, something that Frieza wouldn't do for even his most useful henchmen. Case in point Frieza threatened to kill Zarbon if he didn't find Vegeta in an hour. Anyway please show me where Vegeta puts up with the humiliation that he allows himself to willingly suffer under Beerus and not threatened that person.

[ABED]

Bulma wants to take revenge on Beerus (or at least stop any further bullying of Vegeta) for him bullying Vegeta; I hope she gets to carry that out.

Right Vegeta has always been man enough to deal with his own bullies or at least threaten them and explicitly plot their deaths. Bulma has been the only person in Dragonball history he has willingly allowed to bully him without consequence, up until Beerus..

As far as the mangas, just read some and it looks like not only did it not show Frieza mistreat Vegeta but also gives him an opportunity for redemption, something that Frieza wouldn't do for even his most useful henchmen. Case in point Frieza threatened to kill Zarbon if he didn't find Vegeta in an hour. Anyway please show me where Vegeta puts up with the humiliation that he allows himself to willingly suffer under Beerus and not threatened that person.

You are constantly dropping context. First, he's changed, second, do we know if Vegeta wants to kill Beerus, third, Beerus is magnitudes better than any foe Vegeta has ever faced, and finally he's not in the heat of the moment. He's not going to pick a fight he absolutely knows he can't win unless he's sufficiently provoked in the heat of the moment like when Beerus smacked Bulma. You keep saying that Vegeta doesn't let people get away with insulting him, but give some examples of him doing that against someone he knows he can't beat.

Him being angry at Zarbon doesn't equate to treating Vegeta better. Freeza was upset that Zarbon could have cost him immortality.

[TheMikado]

You are constantly dropping context. First, he's changed, second, do we know if Vegeta wants to kill Beerus, third, Beerus is magnitudes better than any foe Vegeta has ever faced, and finally he's not in the heat of the moment. He's not going to pick a fight he absolutely knows he can't win unless he's sufficiently provoked in the heat of the moment like when Beerus smacked Bulma. You keep saying that Vegeta doesn't let people get away with insulting him, but give some examples of him doing that against someone he knows he can't beat.

Him being angry at Zarbon doesn't equate to treating Vegeta better. Freeza was upset that Zarbon could have cost him immortality.

1) I guess I wasnt explicit enough the first half dozen times. Character development NOT= to Personality change. I will use examples in the same series. Tien, Bulma, Krillin, Gohan, Piccolo, Goku, etc. Each develops as a character and matures but still have the CORE elements of their Personality. I.E. Bulma and Chi-chi were both fiery. Although they development as characters they NEVER STOP being fiery engaging personalities. Piccolo NEVER STOPS being mysterious, distant, and brooding despite changing becoming a Z warrior. While he is more forth coming in his interactions, he never turns into a soft-hearted chatter box. That's a personality change NOT character development. If you want to make the claim that Vegeta's personality has now changed, fine. But again random personality changes especially to drive plot is the result of poor writing.

2) Vegeta has ALWAYS shown his distain for his enemies in one way or another. Threats or otherwise. Period.

3) Who cares if he is magnitudes. You're imposing your on feelings on the situation because you are stating this is a special case so Vegeta will behave outside of his normal characterization because of that. We do not have reasons why he is behaving in this manner which adds to the hand-waving of oh his personality just changed. The fact that the audience has to make that assumption in the first place is again evidence of poor writing.

4) as far as examples. Please tell me what I'm allowed to use. So far I cant cite wiki, dubs, filler, and probably not the entire GT series. What are the "allowed" media I am allowed to cite before I research this for you.