ABED wrote:In this case subcoming to Beerus and his bullying
He's in absolutely no position to do anything. I may not have seen Super, but I have seen the last two DBZ movies which were the basis for the first two arc, so it's not a place of complete ignorance.
Please stop using filler to facilitate the argument. Piccolo saving that child was anime only.
Ok sure.
It's one thing to allow him to drop his insecurities and pride to extent that he can work with Goku. It totally outrageous that it's eroded to the point where he allow Beerus to bully him.
It has nothing to do with eroding. Pride and arrogance are two completely different concepts. One comes from a place of genuine self worth and the other comes from a place of insecurity. What you are talking about is hubris and you are lumping the two together, which is something one should never do. What good would it do Vegeta to stand up to Beerus? He's not allowing anyone to bully him, Beerus has him completely outclassed. Vegeta calmed down over the years. Vegeta doesn't let Beerus do anything, he can't stop him. Yes, Bulma got hit, but she's not any longer in danger and Vegeta is willing to suck it up if it gets him what he wants - to be stronger.
No, that was an example of how Vegeta is supposed to act based on his Prideful personality.
That's not a great example. It was a moment of extreme rage because someone who mattered to Vegeta was injured. He doesn't act that way every time he's slighted. Even if he has to do something humiliating, his response wasn't automatically to fly into a blind rage.
Your Webster's dictionary definition is still a bad argument. He's not resisting Goku nor is it what he's after.
Even when Vegeta was struggling to reach SS, he never had a sit down with Trunks or Goku.
Bad example, that was Vegeta at a completely different time in the series. He was unreceptive to any help. This isn't a matter of pride. Vegeta knows his limits and abilities, but he can recognize Beerus for what he is - FAR stronger than him. He doesn't allow anything. He's not in a position to stop him.
You are confusing the issue. What you refer to as pride is encompasses both genuine pride and arrogance which is born out of insecurity. That's where I think you are going wrong in your thinking. Vegeta never lost his pride. He wants to learn and he's willing to put aside his insecurity in order to achieve his goal because that now means more to him than looking silly. He's grown. It's a logical place for him to go especially after his revelation at the end of Z. I would agree if this was his characterization after the Cell arc, but not after the Buu arc. What would truly be lazy is if he was constantly "I'm the best, no one is better than me!" even in the face of overwhelming evidence. This is the explanation we are given, just implicitly.
You are claiming that his hubris and actions are based on insecurity and after this is extinguished he is willing to work with others in situations he does not want to be in. I should first start by saying I never said Vegeta flies off the handle at every slight. But he exhibits some form of defiance. As far as defiance being the incorrect word to use for the relationship with Goku, you can fight with the Webster's dictionary all you want but it specifically states "2: disposition to resist : willingness to contend or fight" which describes Vegeta's relationship to a T and is a perfectly acceptable description. Goku is often shown to the strongest, Vegeta constantly seeks to defy this notion in the same way that you the term to "defy the laws of physics" Meaning go against established principles. Something that Vegeta seeks to constantly do when Goku is presented as the stronger fight. This do not go hand in hand with being insecure, it goes with being competitive.
As far as Hubris, is has nothing to do with insecurity and is in no way linked to insecurity except in your own mind.
hu·bris
ˈ(h)yo͞obrəs/
noun
noun: hubris
excessive pride or self-confidence.
synonyms: arrogance, conceit, haughtiness, hauteur, pride, self-importance, egotism, pomposity, superciliousness, superiority; More
antonyms: humility
(in Greek tragedy) excessive pride toward or defiance of the gods, leading to nemesis.
Ironically the word DEFIANCE is used when describing Hubris which share a closer relationship then insecurity and Hubris obviously being an exaggerated form of pride which Vegeta suffered from. The notion that his sudden lack of insecurity is what logically eroded his pride is head canon. More importantly, it's wrong based on the fact that we see Vegeta's original personality shown even in Resurrection of F.
In this 11 min clip we see several traditional Vegeta-isms the your so-called reformed none insecure Vegeta shouldnt engage in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_kycrBh_8M
1) Standing afar and literally watching Goku die. Vegeta did not and likely could not intervene until Frieza made an opportunity for him. Vegeta made no valiant attempt to save Goku initially at risk to himself and Goku would have died.
2) Vegeta actually says he may regret not accepting Frieza's offer to be his Supreme Commander but he would also not work for the person who destroyed the planet he was destined to rule.
3) Vegeta does not really care about Goku except for the fact that his presence makes himself stronger and hence Goku is valuable in that respect. It's pretty evident by the manner he saves Goku.
4) Vegeta and Frieza are engaged in back and forth banter until Frieze states: " You have an empty title. The Prince of Nothing." This is a known sore spot and source of pride for Vegeta. While Vegeta shows no physical anger, his response to this verbal insult was to physically attack Frieza.
5) Vegeta states he is not as "forgiving" as Goku and will send him to Hell.
6) After Goku kills Frieza, Vegeta angrily accuses him of being a glory-hound. Again his new personality that we claim to have would suggest he wouldn't care as it was a team effort. According to you and your personality assessment we would expect after Buu that Vegeta would accept this as group victory.
7) Most inconsistent of all is Goku approaching Vegeta at the end of ROF and asking if they should train and team-up in case someone like Frieza shows up again. Now your claim is that Vegeta matured to the point where he would be open to this sort of thing, yet in TRADITIONAL Vegeta fashion he states "He would rather Die" than work with Goku. To which Goku replies he feels the same way, both of which seem earnest based on their personalities.
So again my question becomes how can a character who one minute would rather die than train with Goku, likely because of pride, hubris, whatever reason you want to call it suddenly not only train rather with this person, but be completely humiliated and used as footstool in another instance in the SAME series. There was no time skip, nothing.
The Beerus is so powerful argument falls through because in both BoGs and RoF Vegeta never behaves that way despite knowing how powerful he is and even seeing him before. In fact the power argument should be minimized even further the stronger Vegeta became but instead of coming more defiant as Vegeta has always down as he got more powerful, he became meeker specifically towards Beerus. There is no explanation for the video of BS Vegeta is doing. He doesn't HAVE to train under Whis, he doesn't HAVE to subject himself to Beerus, the choice to come there and train was purely optional.
You make the argument that Vegeta is mature enough but even after the fact Vegeta states he would rather die (for whatever reason, likely pride) than do something he considers beneath him. You cannot reconcile that except through poor writing.
So the real question is have you actually seen RoF, BoG, or Super to make the argument that about Vegeta's personality change and inconsistencies or are you just guessing?
