Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

I personally see this

Goku (base champa): 3
Pottamo: 3.1-3.5
Ssj Goku: 5.5
Ssj blue Goku: 7.5-8
Frost (1st form): 3
Frost (3rd form): 4
Frost ( final form):4.8
Piccolo (special beam cannon): 5.0
Vegeta: ssj= 5.5, Ssjblue: 7.5-8
Magenta: 6
Cabba: 5-8.5
Hit: 9-9.5
Monaca: 9-9.3

Huh? How is SSJ Goku be a 5.5? SSJ Goku is basically SSJG Goku. He should automatically be a 6. And if were taking the 3 years of training the ROSAT into consideration, he should be at somewhere between 6.5-7. Or on the high end, somewhere between 7-8.

[Bullza]

Well since the BoG arc he spent over 4 months on Beerus' planet then after the RoF arc another 8 or so months on Beerus' planet and then 3 years in the ROSAT.

With SSJB being stronger than SSJ/SSJG it makes you wonder how he could still be beneath Beerus.

[Lord Beerus]

Well since the BoG arc he spent over 4 months on Beerus' planet then after the RoF arc another 8 or so months on Beerus' planet and then 3 years in the ROSAT.

With SSJB being stronger than SSJ/SSJG it makes you wonder how he could still be beneath Beerus.

The gap was made too large from the get go. I mean, Beerus was established to be nearly twice as strong as SSJG Goku. But I personally think Toriyama doesn't even want Goku or Vegeta to surpass Beerus. I think by now SSJB Goku and Vegeta may have become as strong as Golden Freeza, if not stronger. But that may not say much considering Golden Freeza shit himself when he saw Beerus. But then again, Whis did say that if Goku and Vegeta teamed up they could possibly take down Beeurs. But perhaps he was referring to fusion of some kind...

[Bullza]

I still think in the long run Toriyama may have regretted putting numbers to it. At the time he probably wasnt thinking about othet movies or a series.

Had Toriyama never mentioned the 6/10/15 scale or that Beerus used 70% of his power in the movie then Beerus could have been as strong as he needed to be.

Had it just been said that Beerus held back a lot then you could have had Goku and Vegeta get a lot stronger and fight stronger opponents but still had Beerus be stronger. Now you gotta squeeze things in.

I think Beerus is a great but he will lose out if other characters start surpassing him. It'll hurt his character.

And I don't think Whis was referring to fusion.

[TheMikado]

I personally see this

Goku (base champa): 3
Pottamo: 3.1-3.5
Ssj Goku: 5.5
Ssj blue Goku: 7.5-8
Frost (1st form): 3
Frost (3rd form): 4
Frost ( final form):4.8
Piccolo (special beam cannon): 5.0
Vegeta: ssj= 5.5, Ssjblue: 7.5-8
Magenta: 6
Cabba: 5-8.5
Hit: 9-9.5
Monaca: 9-9.3

Huh? How is SSJ Goku be a 5.5? SSJ Goku is basically SSJG Goku. He should automatically be a 6. And if were taking the 3 years of training the ROSAT into consideration, he should be at somewhere between 6.5-7. Or on the high end, somewhere between 7-8.

Wait a minute Piccolo special beam cannon is a 5???? What's piccolos base then because that would mean he's beyond SSJ3 from BOG????

[ChaosLordBrandon]

Why are people still using the god scale for?

It was used only for the BOG movie and Super does not even mention it and it never has Beerus needing to use for 70% power against SSG Goku(Whis even says that Beerus was telling a lie and the only time Beerus needed to use some of true power during bog arc was for the universal shock wave thing.). People seem to forgetting the numbers was only for the BOG movie and has not even been mentioned by Super which makes it non canon.

Akira removed the god scale number thing and replaced it with the castle thing for a reason.It makes no sense to still use something the creator removed for a good reason.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Akira removed the god scale number thing and replaced it with the castle thing for a reason.It makes no sense to still use something the creator removed for a good reason.

Toriyama had nothing to do with Super before the Champa arc, and even with that he has only written the story draft of the arc, he is not writing things in detail, and Toei has been making their own changes, seeing the differences between the manga & anime of Super.

[Bullza]

It's mainly used for simplicity.

Also it was Beerus claiming to have used 100% of his power which was the lie.

There's also the line that's in Super but not the movie about Beerus being at 10% when he beat Vegeta. Goku was obviously a lot more powerful than that so the 70% line likely still fits.

[Hugo Boss]

I put Piccolo as a sub main character with Gohan and the main characters currently are Goku and Vegeta. A support is Jaco and Bulma. Remember Vegeta said they were near their limits (many people forget this line) and for Piccolo it is one of them power ups needed for the plot and because it's Piccolo who has a history of quick power ups, I can believe he has got stronger than base Goku.

Piccolo and Gohan aren't sub main characters, they are supporting characters. Gohan was once a sub main character, but that ended in the Boo Arc and Vegeta ascended as a sub main character in Super. That's why I listed him along with Goku, who is the main character.

When Piccolo gets much stronger in a short amount of time, the story provides a reason for it and, then, we have direct implications towards his power.

Spoiler:

7. Piccolo (Ma Junior) [#23T#PIC]
Chapter: 168, P4.2-P.5.1
Yamcha: “That guy’s pretty darn good too…”
Kuririn: “Man, I give up…why does this tournament have to be a collection of such incredible guys?...”
Goku: “Piccolo’s doppelganger, huh?...But his power is way greater than the previous Piccolo…Seems that he’s done some substantial training too…”

Spoiler:

18. Piccolo, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, and Chaozu [#FR1#PIC] [#FR1#TEN] [#FR1#YAM] [#FR1#CHA]
Chapter: 260 (DBZ 66), P14.2
Context: Kaio points out that they arrived faster than Goku.
Kaio: “It’s amazing! They cleared the Serpent Road and got here in a far shorter time than you did! And there are four of them!”

Spoiler:

5. Piccolo [#FR2#PIC]

---Initially--- [#FR2#PIC#PRE]

Chapter: 293 (DBZ 99), P4.3
Context: Piccolo talking about wanting to fight Freeza
Piccolo: “My power has vastly increased here! I’ll definitely defeat him! Call me to that planet!”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

---Post-merge--- [#FR2#PIC#POS]

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P6.2-5
Context: after fusing with Nail
Piccolo: “I…I can’t believe this…C-can this be?...What power…! What unbelievably stupendous power…! So th-this is what they call ‘merging’…?! I can win! No matter what kind of opponent, I shouldn’t lose! I’ve now obtained the ultimate power!”

Spoiler:

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”

Spoiler:

---Post-merge---
Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-7
Trunks: “I feel another stupendous ki…! There’s someone else!! Someone else I don’t know!!”
Kuririn: “It’s Piccolo!!!”
Trunks: “What?! But this ki...
Kuririn: Amazing…!! They really merged…!”
Trunks: “Merged?! You mean he and God…?! I heard they used to be one, but split up.”
Kuririn: “They were! And Piccolo was already incredibly strong, so simply by doing that…Th-this is a Super Namekian!!”
Trunks: “Magnificent. To think that he’d be capable of this much of a power-up...”

Spoiler:

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

In Boo Arc, Piccolo's power wasn't needed anymore, but still his intelligence was praised and influenced the events involving Gotenks, Boo and Gohan.

Spoiler:

---Gotenks, Piccolo-absorbed--- [#BO3#BOO#GTK]

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P6.1
Context: Boo thinking to himself, before he absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo
Boo: “…If I just add that squirt’s power and…that ‘Piccolo’ guy’s brains, then…”

Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P1.2-3
Boo: "I'm going to hurry this fight along, if you don't mind. It seems that the transformation time of this "Super Gotenks" guy I've absorbed is quite limited."
Gohan: “That’s a pretty sober decision for you to make…Seems that you were correct to absorb Piccolo too…”

In Champa Arc, not only we don't have any comment acknowledging his power, but we are leaded to think that Makankosappo is a break-limit technique and that Piccolo relied on strategy to overcome the power difference between him and Frost, which means, in normal conditions, the match would go just like Goku suggested. This is more or less similar to when Piccolo fought Raditz, the only difference is that Piccolo has vastly improved his strategy since then and probably would be able to beat even Raditz alone in that condition.

[ZombieVito]

There are power related statements for Piccolo in the manga.

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

[apex_pretador]

There's definitely some validity behind your theory; but when all is said and done, Vegeta one-shotting Frost would just be absurd.

I'm really hoping for him to fall back into a pit of humility where he reclaims his job as a punching bag; this new leagues above everyone else thing just doesn't go too well with him.

I think it's great that he's upped his game as a father and husband, but does he really have to be so buddy buddy with Goku?

Vegeta finally is the strongest Saiyan now, just like he claimed in the beginning of this series, a position that was his right, since he is a Prince, can't you just accept it?

vegeta called goku strongest in the manga in the fight with botamo.
not sure if translation error

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

I don't think it's impossible for that to happen, but I don't need to wait until Dragon Ball Super ends to form an opinion. Episode 34 was the proper moment, because Piccolo caught everyone's attention. The only thing I can imagine for that hypothetical scenario to make sense is Piccolo aproaching Goku or Beerus and some of them comment on his effort, while Vegeta starts his match.

vegeta called goku strongest in the manga in the fight with botamo.
not sure if translation error

Vegeta said Goku was the strongest among him and Botamo. By the way, there is nothing that hints to Vegeta being stronger than Goku yet.

[LightBing]

There are power related statements for Piccolo in the manga.

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

Have those been translated? I'm curious to know how wrong or right I am. From the pictures, I think Piccolo is keeping his distance until Frost gets tired, before laying the beatdown.

[apex_pretador]

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

I don't think it's impossible for that to happen, but I don't need to wait until Dragon Ball Super ends to form an opinion. Episode 34 was the proper moment, because Piccolo caught everyone's attention. The only thing I can imagine for that hypothetical scenario to make sense is Piccolo aproaching Goku or Beerus and some of them comment on his effort, while Vegeta starts his match.

vegeta called goku strongest in the manga in the fight with botamo.
not sure if translation error

Vegeta said Goku was the strongest among him and Botamo. By the way, there is nothing that hints to Vegeta being stronger than Goku yet.

Why will he call him "Strongest" then?

[ZombieVito]

There are power related statements for Piccolo in the manga.

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

Have those been translated? I'm curious to know how wrong or right I am. From the pictures, I think Piccolo is keeping his distance until Frost gets tired, before laying the beatdown.

I have seen Spanish and English translations.

Piccolo is stronger but Frost evens out the fight thanks to his natural toughness until he can't keep up and uses the poison.

[dbzfan7]

There are power related statements for Piccolo in the manga.

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

Have those been translated? I'm curious to know how wrong or right I am. From the pictures, I think Piccolo is keeping his distance until Frost gets tired, before laying the beatdown.

I've seen them, and trust me, wait for Herms or someone else with validity to confirm what is said. It's got some engrish here and there. Though they could still be right. If they are though, that's quite the interesting difference. One Goku thinks he can do it, the other says he's fucked. Though the translations give me the impression Frost and SSJ Goku are far weaker than I thought, and god form is much more powerful.

[SansrivaaL]

There's definitely some validity behind your theory; but when all is said and done, Vegeta one-shotting Frost would just be absurd.

I'm really hoping for him to fall back into a pit of humility where he reclaims his job as a punching bag; this new leagues above everyone else thing just doesn't go too well with him.

I think it's great that he's upped his game as a father and husband, but does he really have to be so buddy buddy with Goku?

Vegeta finally is the strongest Saiyan now, just like he claimed in the beginning of this series, a position that was his right, since he is a Prince, can't you just accept it?

When was this stated?
far as I know Whis' line in both the anime/movie and manga ver said that Goku's still a step ahead of Vegeta, later when they were training for the tournament the way Vegeta said that its his line that he can see where he's lacking when he trains with Goku speaks volumes, manga also showed that when Goku and Vegeta were having a mini fight Vegeta was forced to go SSB against base Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta said Goku was the strongest among him and Botamo.

Why will he call him "Strongest" then?

Huh? I already answered your question. "Strongest" in this context is between Goku and Botamo. Vegeta isn't comparing Goku to anyone else.

[LightBing]

There are power related statements for Piccolo in the manga.

I wouldn't be surprised if next episode we get one.

Have those been translated? I'm curious to know how wrong or right I am. From the pictures, I think Piccolo is keeping his distance until Frost gets tired, before laying the beatdown.

I've seen them, and trust me, wait for Herms or someone else with validity to confirm what is said. It's got some engrish here and there. Though they could still be right. If they are though, that's quite the interesting difference. One Goku thinks he can do it, the other says he's fucked. Though the translations give me the impression Frost and SSJ Goku are far weaker than I thought, and god form is much more powerful.

Yeah, speculation about untrustworthy information is the highest sin in this franchise. I will wait to comment, the magazine comes out tomorrow so a trusted source will probably get to it soon after.


Now speculating confirmed sources:
When Goku's fighting Botamo before digesting his food, Champa says he's the same as the suit restricted Goku from before.
While training it's a fair assumption Goku wasn't holding back, while the suit would weaken him greatly, it's unlikely it would do it to with such gravity.
Making the two base theory weaker. No matter how restricted he was, it had to be somewhat close to SSJG level, if that's indeed his maximum output in base.
Besides the apparent usefulness of characters like Mr.Boo, Piccolo and Gohan in the tournament, which lacks the information about their power jumps.

This whole debacle we're having could be because of a misunderstanding. Goku's base is not even close to SSJG. I know BoG has Goku losing SSJG and maintaining the power but the material that follows contradicts it more than once.

This quote explains itself:

Spoiler:

Episode 18
Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

The realm ahead is that of gods, Super Saiyan God exactly. The next episodes we see the Saiyans training to achieve SSJB, that later is compared with SSJG.

Thinking about everything so far, the only thing that would make sense is that Goku absorbing the SSJG power in it's totality was temporary. I'm pretty confident this will be confirmed, there's just too much pointing towards it. The whole RoF is telling us this, that's why at the time, we were discussing were the base Saiyans stood in this very thread.

[buutenks]

I am going to not take in account the 6/10/15 scaling, since i think the tree to castle scaling is more relevant now.

So based of whis' statement, while their base forms became much stronger they didnt reach the level of ssj god.

Now beerus used 10% of his power to tank vegeta's galic gun, so id put vegeta's galic gun at 6% and his actual power at 2%.

So my list:

base goku:2-3% of beerus' power
ssj goku:10% of beerus' power
ssj blue:85%(or 90%) of beerus' power.
botamo:ssj2 tier IMO(even this is a bit high considering all he has is his special ability, no feats of speed or strength)
assault form frost:1.5% of beerus' power
final form frost:5% of beerus' power
final form frost(weakened): 3.5% of beerus' power
Piccolo:4% of beerus' power

Edit;that would also mean final form frost>final form freeza, but would lose horribly to golden form freeza.