Is Goku a superhero?

[dbzfan7]

Yes. A superhero puts the world above his own needs. They do what's best for the people, not for themselves.

Eh, extremely superficial and again treating moral like something absolute. And as mentioned in my previous post, some time x-Goku wants to disagree with you.

Both of your examples, HE CAUSED! He's not even sorry for either. He had a chance to stop the cyborgs from coming to fruition, but didn't care. He'd rather put the world at risk so he can get his jollies. No Superhero would ever do that. He caused the entire Majin Boo problem alongside Vegeta, and has the balls to not fix his own problem. He instead tries to push it on the next generation in the most extreme way, that never asked to do what Goku is forcing on them. He could have just killed Freeza, but instead let him drag on, blow up Namek, then let him live again, so he could go on hurting more people. If he hadn't learnt Shunkan Ido, or Trunks hadn't shown up, all his friends would be dead.

[Cetra]

Yes. A superhero puts the world above his own needs. They do what's best for the people, not for themselves.

Eh, extremely superficial and again treating moral like something absolute. And as mentioned in my previous post, some time x-Goku wants to disagree with you.

Both of your examples, HE CAUSED! He's not even sorry for either. He had a chance to stop the cyborgs from coming to fruition, but didn't care. He'd rather put the world at risk so he can get his jollies. No Superhero would ever do that. He caused the entire Majin Boo problem alongside Vegeta, and has the balls to not fix his own problem. He instead tries to push it on the next generation in the most extreme way, that never asked to do what Goku is forcing on them. He could have just killed Freeza, but instead let him drag on, blow up Namek, then let him live again, so he could go on hurting more people. If he hadn't learnt Shunkan Ido, or Trunks hadn't shown up, all his friends would be dead.

Aha? So if the event that initiates another chain of events is not the moment someone does something "selfless" in your opinion but that act of selflessness is done later it is worthless? Also, I recommend you to wait for my posts a few minutes more as you always miss out some stuff I add. But we will not come to one and the same view here. I think you are breaking super hero down to a very superficially defined thing.

[dbzfan7]

Aha? So if the event that initiates another chain of events is not the moment someone does something "selfless" in your opinion but that act of selflessness is done later it is worthless? Also, I recommend you to wait for my posts a few minutes more as you always miss out some stuff I add. But we will not come to one and the same view here. I think you are breaking super hero down to a very superficially defined thing.

Doing a selfless act doesn't automatically make one a Superhero. Both of which have 2 actual sides to the event with one being horribly glossed over to make Goku look better. I think you're giving him way too much credit, but that's me. Toriyama's own statements to me don't say superhero at all, but that's me. I'd classify Goku as a hero, sometimes. But that just me. A plain hero I think is the best I'd give him.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm going to go against the grain here, methinks. I'm not a fan of the "hope of the universe" Goku. Even the movie Toei Goku can get a bit outside of the character at times. But I honestly feel the accidental hero, selfish manchild aspect is far too overstated as well. Maybe it's fans pulling against FUNimation's depictions. Maybe it's Toriyama pulling against Toei's depictions. But Goku is (or was at least) very selflessly heroic. I think he, unfortunately, became less so over time as he began inheriting "Saiyan" characteristics that were then claimed to have always been there. But remember this is a guy who abandons his epic quest without hesitation to carry a sea turtle back to his home, with no thought of reward or expectation of fighting, just because it's the right thing to do. He finishes gathering all the Dragon Balls, even the ones he doesn't care about, just to bring an innocent man back to life. Yes, he is driven by battle. Yes, he is simple and is often motivated by his own desires. Yes, he can often make reckless decisions. No, he does not live by an overt code or sit in the Hall of Justice waiting to battle the Legion of Doom. And I love all of those things about him. But that's not all Goku is at all, and it pains me that he continues to be pushed further in that direction as the years go on.

[sintzu]

Just because they do not act like Spider-Man or Superman and watch out for every crime that happens they are no super heroes? They still come when the world needs them.

If there was a nuclear war about to happen do you think they would stop it ? Goku and his friends only take part in situations that they can get a good fight out of.

[ABED]

Just because they do not act like Spider-Man or Superman and watch out for every crime that happens they are no super heroes? They still come when the world needs them.

If there was a nuclear war about to happen do you think they would stop it ? Goku and his friends only take part in situations that they can get a good fight out of.

If a nuke was aimed at someone they cared for then I do think they would stop it. That doesn't make them any less heroic.

[dbzfan7]

I'm going to go against the grain here, methinks. I'm not a fan of the "hope of the universe" Goku. Even the movie Toei Goku can get a bit outside of the character at times. But I honestly feel the accidental hero, selfish manchild aspect is far too overstated as well. Maybe it's fans pulling against FUNimation's depictions. Maybe it's Toriyama pulling against Toei's depictions. But Goku is (or was at least) very selflessly heroic. I think he, unfortunately, became less so over time as he began inheriting "Saiyan" characteristics that were then claimed to have always been there. But remember this is a guy who abandons his epic quest without hesitation to carry a sea turtle back to his home, with no thought of reward or expectation of fighting, just because it's the right thing to do. He finishes gathering all the Dragon Balls, even the ones he doesn't care about, just to bring an innocent man back to life. Yes, he is driven by battle. Yes, he is simple and is often motivated by his own desires. Yes, he can often make reckless decisions. No, he does not live by an overt code or sit in the Hall of Justice waiting to battle the Legion of Doom. And I love all of those things about him. But that's not all Goku is at all, and it pains me that he continues to be pushed further in that direction as the years go on.

My how has Goku changed. I can't imagine Goku back then doing any of the crap he pulls now. I guess it really has been his saiyan side poisoning him. Though he did let it poison him during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, where he put a match over the fate of the world. Though it's why I like Goku. If I want Superheros to look up to and call great, I'd look to Marvel or DC. If I want someone to look to for pushing my limits and always improving myself, I'll look to Goku.

[ABED]

I'm going to go against the grain here, methinks. I'm not a fan of the "hope of the universe" Goku. Even the movie Toei Goku can get a bit outside of the character at times. But I honestly feel the accidental hero, selfish manchild aspect is far too overstated as well. Maybe it's fans pulling against FUNimation's depictions. Maybe it's Toriyama pulling against Toei's depictions. But Goku is (or was at least) very selflessly heroic. I think he, unfortunately, became less so over time as he began inheriting "Saiyan" characteristics that were then claimed to have always been there. But remember this is a guy who abandons his epic quest without hesitation to carry a sea turtle back to his home, with no thought of reward or expectation of fighting, just because it's the right thing to do. He finishes gathering all the Dragon Balls, even the ones he doesn't care about, just to bring an innocent man back to life. Yes, he is driven by battle. Yes, he is simple and is often motivated by his own desires. Yes, he can often make reckless decisions. No, he does not live by an overt code or sit in the Hall of Justice waiting to battle the Legion of Doom. And I love all of those things about him. But that's not all Goku is at all, and it pains me that he continues to be pushed further in that direction as the years go on.

My how has Goku changed. I can't imagine Goku back then doing any of the crap he pulls now. I guess it really has been his saiyan side poisoning him. Though he did let it poison him during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, where he put a match over the fate of the world. Though it's why I like Goku. If want Superheros to look up to and call great, I'd look to Marvel or DC. If I want someone to look to for pushing my limits and always improving myself, I'll look to Goku.

But in that case, Goku knew he was better. He didn't just put it over the fate of the world over a fight he had no chance of winning. What ultimately would've changed had he put the world above the championship?

[dbzfan7]

I'm going to go against the grain here, methinks. I'm not a fan of the "hope of the universe" Goku. Even the movie Toei Goku can get a bit outside of the character at times. But I honestly feel the accidental hero, selfish manchild aspect is far too overstated as well. Maybe it's fans pulling against FUNimation's depictions. Maybe it's Toriyama pulling against Toei's depictions. But Goku is (or was at least) very selflessly heroic. I think he, unfortunately, became less so over time as he began inheriting "Saiyan" characteristics that were then claimed to have always been there. But remember this is a guy who abandons his epic quest without hesitation to carry a sea turtle back to his home, with no thought of reward or expectation of fighting, just because it's the right thing to do. He finishes gathering all the Dragon Balls, even the ones he doesn't care about, just to bring an innocent man back to life. Yes, he is driven by battle. Yes, he is simple and is often motivated by his own desires. Yes, he can often make reckless decisions. No, he does not live by an overt code or sit in the Hall of Justice waiting to battle the Legion of Doom. And I love all of those things about him. But that's not all Goku is at all, and it pains me that he continues to be pushed further in that direction as the years go on.

My how has Goku changed. I can't imagine Goku back then doing any of the crap he pulls now. I guess it really has been his saiyan side poisoning him. Though he did let it poison him during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, where he put a match over the fate of the world. Though it's why I like Goku. If want Superheros to look up to and call great, I'd look to Marvel or DC. If I want someone to look to for pushing my limits and always improving myself, I'll look to Goku.

But in that case, Goku knew he was better. He didn't just put it over the fate of the world over a fight he had no chance of winning. What ultimately would've changed had he put the world above the championship?

That doesn't matter at all. Hell he's extremely lucky Piccolo missed his vital organs, or he would have died right then and there because of his decision. Always go with the more safe approach, not the more risky one. You don't EVER put the fate of the world on any gamble. You go with the sure fire way to stop someone. Would you honestly do such a thing? Can you imagine someone like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or any of them doing that? I don't think so.

I can ride a bike without my helmet and most likely be fine. However there's always a chance I could fall and crack my skull open. I could ride in a car without a seat belt and most likely be fine, but that doesn't mean something bad can't happen. Just because he feels likely to win, doesn't mean something can't go horribly wrong.

[ABED]

That doesn't matter at all. Hell he's extremely lucky Piccolo missed his vital organs, or he would have died right then and there because of his decision. Always go with the more safe approach, not the more risky one. You don't EVER put the fate of the world on any gamble. You go with the sure fire way to stop someone. Would you honestly do such a thing? Can you imagine someone like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or any of them doing that? I don't think so.

I can ride a bike without my helmet and most likely be fine. However there's always a chance I could fall and crack my skull open. I could ride in a car without a seat belt and most likely be fine, but that doesn't mean something bad can't happen.

He's not lucky. He won out of skill, not luck. Yes, he was worse for wear at the end, but it wasn't luck. It's all a gamble, and if I had money, I'd put it on Goku. What is the surefire way to defeat Piccolo? And Superman has constantly put the fate of the world at risk. He lets enemies like Darkseid live.

[dbzfan7]

That doesn't matter at all. Hell he's extremely lucky Piccolo missed his vital organs, or he would have died right then and there because of his decision. Always go with the more safe approach, not the more risky one. You don't EVER put the fate of the world on any gamble. You go with the sure fire way to stop someone. Would you honestly do such a thing? Can you imagine someone like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, or any of them doing that? I don't think so.

I can ride a bike without my helmet and most likely be fine. However there's always a chance I could fall and crack my skull open. I could ride in a car without a seat belt and most likely be fine, but that doesn't mean something bad can't happen.

He's not lucky. He won out of skill, not luck. Yes, he was worse for wear at the end, but it wasn't luck. It's all a gamble, and if I had money, I'd put it on Goku. What is the surefire way to defeat Piccolo?

He was lucky. He was lucky Piccolo missed his organs. That is entirely luck based. Also the sure fire way to beat Piccolo is like God said, Have everyone attack him together. Literally with Goku, God, Tenshinhan, and everyone working together, he stands no chance. He had a hard enough time with Goku, but if everyone fought together, then they'd have been fine. Then giving a senzu to Piccolo and letting him go was even dumber, since he could and possibly did kill people after he left. We have no idea.

[ABED]

Also the sure fire way to beat Piccolo is like God said, Have everyone attack him together. Literally with Goku, God, Tenshinhan, and everyone working together, he stands no chance. He had a hard enough time with Goku, but if everyone fought together, then they'd have been fine. Then giving a senzu to Piccolo and letting him go was even dumber, since he could and possibly did kill people after he left. We have no idea.

Except it wasn't a surefire way. If it had been, why did they hesitate when Piccolo threatened them? Goku was the only one with enough power to win. Piccolo's chance of winning against Goku was slim regardless of it being a close match. Yeah, Kami maybe devine, but he's not all knowing. He didn't think Goku could defeat Piccolo which was the entire reason he came to the tournament.

You still have yet to answer the point about Superman letting Darkseid go. Darkseid's worse, he could enslave the entire universe, but Superman lets him live.

[dbzfan7]

Also the sure fire way to beat Piccolo is like God said, Have everyone attack him together. Literally with Goku, God, Tenshinhan, and everyone working together, he stands no chance. He had a hard enough time with Goku, but if everyone fought together, then they'd have been fine. Then giving a senzu to Piccolo and letting him go was even dumber, since he could and possibly did kill people after he left. We have no idea.

Except it wasn't a surefire way. If it had been, why did they hesitate when Piccolo threatened them? Goku was the only one with enough power to win.

You still have yet to answer the point about Superman letting Darkseid go. Darkseid's worse, he could enslave the entire universe, but Superman lets him live.

Because they were talking about if Goku lost. If Goku lost, then yes they're screwed. If Goku teamed up with everyone, they'd win much easier. It's like how 17 said if everyone teamed up on 18, they could beat her, despite really only 2 people being on their level. He also again, let's Piccolo just leave. Not seal him up. Not make sure he doesn't do anything bad, just leave free of charge. The guy who still has no problem killing a bunch of people. Which he pulled again with Freeza, which nearly got everyone killed.

Superman has SEVERAL different writers. He's not the same with each and every version. Sometimes he's an asshole, sometimes he's the pinnacle of good. Goku is written by one person. What 1 Superman does, doesn't mean they all will. Same with Batman. Some kill, and some don't.

[Cipher]

For me he's missing most of the elements we identify with that character trope (and that's all the term "superhero" really is -- a way of categorizing shared elements in fantasy characters). Most importantly, he's not a proactive vigilante. In that same way, I wouldn't consider the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (Mirage comics) superheroes. In some incarnations, where they're more active crime-fighters, they are.

Goku is super-powerful, but he is not a superhero. On the other hand, Batman is not super-powerful, but he is a superhero.

Great Saiyaman is a superhero. Videl is a superhero.

[Gorou]

To be honest, I think Goku is totaly bad for the hero role that many would relegate to him. He is not a hero, and was never acted like as one of them, at least as an adult. Goku is the typical fighter sayan with innate desire to fight and win, which nevertheless maintains a fairly consistent molar rigor, albeit not very high. There is no denying that, throughout history, has taken on several occasions many very bad decisions, and potentially dangerous for his dear friends and family, beginning with his decision to letting go Piccolo (which would pututo well let seal with Mafuuba). From this precise point in history on, he started, constantly, to repplicare performing these stances, absolutely selfish and not at all wise, from the outsider's point of view, but legitimate and sensible, from his point of view, that of a warrior who want fight worthy opponents. As a child, it was very different: the most "naive" is, but more altruistic, but, at the same time, inflexible with enemies.

I really liked in the Cell game, when, for the first time, not even a second to he think to spare the enemy, but has totally disappointed me, in the resurrection of F, which has proven to have learned nothing from its past experiences.

[dbzfan7]

I really liked in the Cell game, when, for the first time, not even a second to he think to spare the enemy, but has totally disappointed me, in the resurrection of F, which has proven to have learned nothing from its past experiences.

That to me is the funniest thing of all. The one time Goku outright has no mercy, and tells someone to do the right thing, and yet he doesn't follow his own advice.

[Gorou]

I really liked in the Cell game, when, for the first time, not even a second to he think to spare the enemy, but has totally disappointed me, in the resurrection of F, which has proven to have learned nothing from its past experiences.

That to me is the funniest thing of all. The one time Goku outright has no mercy, and tells someone to do the right thing, and yet he doesn't follow his own advice.

Yes, it sounds quite ironic

[ABED]

Superman has SEVERAL different writers. He's not the same with each and every version. Sometimes he's an asshole, sometimes he's the pinnacle of good. Goku is written by one person. What 1 Superman does, doesn't mean they all will. Same with Batman. Some kill, and some don't.

Fair enough, but the point still stands in the cases where he does let Darkseid live. Is he good for doing so?

The reason he lets Freeza go is out of mercy, so it's not the same against Piccolo.

Because they were talking about if Goku lost. If Goku lost, then yes they're screwed. If Goku teamed up with everyone, they'd win much easier.
I don't know what you mean. They were going to fight Piccolo but stop dead in their tracks when Piccolo tells them they don't have a chance. If they all teamed up, they might win easier, but Goku was going to win that match, he was stronger, faster, more agile, and overall better fighter. He just wasn't as devious. Nothing really would've been different if they weren't in a tournament setting. And I'm not saying letting Piccolo leave was the right thing, this isn't about that.

It's like how 17 said if everyone teamed up on 18, they could beat her, despite really only 2 people being on their level.

That was conjecture on 17's part.

in the resurrection of F, which has proven to have learned nothing from its past experiences.

Well, that's different, Freeza wasn't stronger than Goku and even having everyone team up was no guarentee that Freeza never would've gotten the chance to blow up the planet.

[Gorou]

Well, that's different, Freeza wasn't stronger than Goku and even having everyone team up was no guarentee that Freeza never would've gotten the chance to blow up the planet.

I was not referring to that, but to its constant and annoying propensity to spare Freeza's life. He has not learned NOTHING to the events of Namek

[Hellspawn28]

Don't you think that is a bit ... supericial? Just because they do not act like Spider-Man or Superman and watch out for every crime that happens they are no super heroes? They still come when the world needs them. Selfish or not, I think at least at the end of GT when Goku fights Super Yi XIng Long is a superhero (and well that final round is not even a selfish one).

Won't that be like saying characters like Godzilla and Sonic are superheroes since they have save the world many times and still come when the world needs them. And yet they don't fit the Superhero definition.

I cannot agree that a super hero is morally pure. Beginning with morals not being absolute, a lot of Super heroes have their "dark side" or whatever you want to call it, as well.

Those are anti-heroes, not superheroes. Someone like The Punisher and Spawn don't fit the idea of being a superhero.